Resealed figure discovery debate - G.Kurtz Palitoy VC Jawa.

[lee gray]

I've got to disagree.....It seems people are trying really hard to prove these are genuine.

Shouldn't that be Toni's job? Why has he stopped selling them and why was he spending big bucks on loose figures?

This is my last post about the subject, too many questions, no answers and round and round in circles we go.

Exactly.

Lets say I came out with a big revelation about a respectable collector and dirtied his name and told people hes been faking items and everyone started wanting his blood and that respectable seller did nothing about it at all to deny the fact, then more fool him. as people will think the worse.
Being in Toni's position and how this could affect his whole life and has affected his livelyhood to not defend himself at all
you dont really need any proof because i am convinced he is guilty only for that fact and not because of what cards look dodgy.

And if I was accused of something that i hadnt done i would call the accuser a lying **** instead of do nothing.

I got no complaints though as enjoyed my figures I got from Toni as they were real back then

 

[finestcomics]

I've got to disagree.....It seems people are trying really hard to prove these are genuine.

Shouldn't that be Toni's job? Why has he stopped selling them and why was he spending big bucks on loose figures?

This is my last post about the subject, too many questions, no answers and round and round in circles we go.

Lets say I came out with a big revelation about a respectable collector and dirtied his name and told people hes been faking items and everyone started wanting his blood that respectable seller did nothing about it at all to deny the fact, then more fool him.
Being in Toni's position and how this could affect his whole life and has affected his livelyhood to not defend himself at all
you dont really need any proof because i am convinced he is guilty only for that fact and not because of what cards look dodgy.

Agreed. Especially with him seemingly coming to defend himself in the past against far less serious allegations. Telling Jason he "understands" but is "overwhelmed" just doesn't demonstrate the nickel-spitting that would follow someone defending themselves against such allegations.

 

[jimbody1]

This is what I'm thinking myself ^^^...

Except Id love 1000's of unused cards because then we'd all be able to have one or two in our own collections as exactly what they were supposed to be just an used card for a focus or what ever.

lol! i can just picture it now, toni 20+ years ago " yeah ill buy those 1000's of unused cardbacks, i may well be able to buy mint figures and figure out a way to seal them to the cards with all these unused bubbles 10 years down the line "

yeahright! :lol:

Just some perspective. I bought a collection from a single source. Somewhere around 10,000 books. They've mostly been kept intact and undisturbed for at least 10 years. I have a fairly good idea what was in the collection. It's got some multiples of issues which are impossible to forget. When an issue suddenly becomes hot, I pick a few books out and sell them. I haven't made a dent in the total number, but I know slowly doling them out when the market is hot has served me well. I have never seen a reason to just dump them on the market and sell them for a song because I've already made my money back selling a few hundred books from the total lot. If you're into something interest free, and can afford to sit on it, the idea of selling them when the market demand exists is plenty worthwhile.

point taken, but this is like you buying those books with the odd page missing in the hope you can one day print those pages and sell them on as original. would you have bought them with odd pages missing in the hope you could replace the pages at some point?
back then the money paid for this lot wouldve bought you a house over here, five houses if you lived in hull lol! im not trying to start an argument and im certainly not trying to belittle the outstanding work done over this but again the evidence is purely circumstantial with only one persons word that toni bought all this stuff to start with. surely im not the only person to see that?

 

[tiefighterboy]

You are not alone Jim.

 

[lee gray]

This is what I'm thinking myself ^^^...

Except Id love 1000's of unused cards because then we'd all be able to have one or two in our own collections as exactly what they were supposed to be just an used card for a focus or what ever.

lol! i can just picture it now, toni 20+ years ago " yeah ill buy those 1000's of unused cardbacks, i may well be able to buy mint figures and figure out a way to seal them to the cards with all these unused bubbles 10 years down the line "

yeahright! :lol:

and that was before the internet too so would have been difficult

 

[James Simmonds]

Here are scans of the Palitoy Hoth Stormtrooper cardback with a Boots price sticker on that I've owned since 1983 which may come in useful as a comparison to the Toni cards:

http://i885.photobucket.com/albums/ac60/jamashsim72/img002_zps4956a707.jpg

http://i885.photobucket.com/albums/ac60/jamashsim72/img003_zps7e364b96.jpg

Hope the links work.

James.

 

[finestcomics]

llol! i can just picture it now, toni 20+ years ago " yeah ill buy those 1000's of unused cardbacks, i may well be able to buy mint figures and figure out a way to seal them to the cards with all these unused bubbles 10 years down the line "

yeahright! :lol:

Just some perspective. I bought a collection from a single source. Somewhere around 10,000 books. They've mostly been kept intact and undisturbed for at least 10 years. I have a fairly good idea what was in the collection. It's got some multiples of issues which are impossible to forget. When an issue suddenly becomes hot, I pick a few books out and sell them. I haven't made a dent in the total number, but I know slowly doling them out when the market is hot has served me well. I have never seen a reason to just dump them on the market and sell them for a song because I've already made my money back selling a few hundred books from the total lot. If you're into something interest free, and can afford to sit on it, the idea of selling them when the market demand exists is plenty worthwhile.

point taken, but this is like you buying those books with the odd page missing in the hope you can one day print those pages and sell them on as original. would you have bought them with odd pages missing in the hope you could replace the pages at some point?
back then the money paid for this lot wouldve bought you a house over here, five houses if you lived in hull lol! im not trying to start an argument and im certainly not trying to belittle the outstanding work done over this but again the evidence is purely circumstantial with only one persons word that toni bought all this stuff to start with. surely im not the only person to see that?

There are some similarities. The ROTJ line was still "modern" at those times, and banking on selling them as "vintage" was a similar play I made sitting on this collection of books. It's hard to frame time and place, but I had a discussion with Tom about this very thing and it was refreshing to hear his perspective to better ground my own thoughts on the matter.

While I agree it's "parts" rather than the whole, it takes someone with vision to be able to monetize on this type of acquisition. The thing that is off-side about the whole allegation is that Toni could have profited immensely if he had simply sold them as "unused" cardbacks.

While the value of them in the 90's is very different than their value today, he did pay approx 66 cents per card if we go by the 25K count and ₤10K ($16K USD). Which would have meant even if he had blew them out at ₤10 ($16) each, he would have made a ₤250,000 ($409,000), of which some ₤234,000 ($395,000) would have been profit.

The question for me, and back to my point about sitting on the cards to realize more significant gains, ₤10 in the 90's could probably get you an MOC so who would spend that much on an "unused" cardback. Getting ₤100 per "unused" cardback as early as a decade ago wouldn't have been unheard, and I'm sure he would have been able to get ₤150-₤250 for a Fett if he held on to those and sold them last to get top dollar.

I don't think it's out of touch to believe they could easily have hit half a million in profit if someone landed this inventory of "unused" cardbacks and played it out the right way, rather than the illegitimate way that has been alleged.

 

[jimbody1]

I've got to disagree.....It seems people are trying really hard to prove these are genuine.

Shouldn't that be Toni's job? Why has he stopped selling them and why was he spending big bucks on loose figures?

This is my last post about the subject, too many questions, no answers and round and round in circles we go.

Lets say I came out with a big revelation about a respectable collector and dirtied his name and told people hes been faking items and everyone started wanting his blood that respectable seller did nothing about it at all to deny the fact, then more fool him.
Being in Toni's position and how this could affect his whole life and has affected his livelyhood to not defend himself at all
you dont really need any proof because i am convinced he is guilty only for that fact and not because of what cards look dodgy.

Agreed. Especially with him seemingly coming to defend himself in the past against far less serious allegations. Telling Jason he "understands" but is "overwhelmed" just doesn't demonstrate the nickel-spitting that would follow someone defending themselves against such allegations.

im going to get myself banned i ****ing know it and am going to have to resort to going on tig and rs but have you or have you not already decided that your toni mocs are fake? im presuming that you have decided they are? so what would toni be able to say that would convince you otherwise? nothing is my guess at that so what would be the point of him doing so? it would seem that the ( most of it anyway ) community as a whole has already decided his guilt on the word of someone with a more than dubious reputation. so how long would you bang your head against a wall? or would you think **** this why bother? as has already been said ( theres those circles again ) theres pali and gm mocs with exactly the same seals as toni's that didnt come from toni, if the seals are so different dont you honestly think it wouldve been picked up by afa/ukg by now as well as all the people that have bought them from toni? let me ask you this, before all this did you think your toni mocs were fake?
im not defending toni, thats his job and if he chooses not to thats up to him but all this stuff about bubble alignment, bubble types, printing errors on cards is just clutching at straws from what i can see and proves nothing, you can check every palitoy card in the world and probably find something wrong with it as you can probably do the same with kenners.

 

[tiefighterboy]

You will not be banned Jim. This is not RS and you are entitled to your opinion.

 

[Grant_C]

Yeah agreed.

I can understand his scilenc.

But why buy all those mint figures under a second account?

And you wont get banned-

 

[Caswellbot]

If someone had unused cardbacks and bubbles and there was a pretty abundant supply of loose figures then it would definitely be worth the return. The tricky bit would probably be the sealing process.

Let's not lose sight of a few very interesting points on all this.

Jason doesn't come on here with the view to dropping toni in it. He was invited on here by a member. The Toni revelation comes out in one of his messages.

Toni says that he didn't know Arthur bailey very well but was actually a business partner with him for a few years.

Toni has had numerous ebay accounts and has now set the latest to private. Some of these accoubts were used to buy mint figure that correlate to the list Jason produced.

Toni has definitely sold unused palitoy cards backs in the past.

Toni goes silent.

We could get hung up on the seals but the chances are that over this many years you can bet that someone could get much better at sealing them. Looking for tells would probably work on some cards but not all as the sealing process would have evolved making common trends much more difficult to spot.

 

[finestcomics]

im going to get myself banned i ****ing know it and am going to have to resort to going on tig and rs but have you or have you not already decided that your toni mocs are fake? im presuming that you have decided they are? so what would toni be able to say that would convince you otherwise? nothing is my guess at that so what would be the point of him doing so? it would seem that the ( most of it anyway ) community as a whole has already decided his guilt on the word of someone with a more than dubious reputation. so how long would you bang your head against a wall? or would you think **** this why bother? as has already been said ( theres those circles again ) theres pali and gm mocs with exactly the same seals as toni's that didnt come from toni, if the seals are so different dont you honestly think it wouldve been picked up by afa/ukg by now as well as all the people that have bought them from toni? let me ask you this, before all this did you think your toni mocs were fake?
im not defending toni, thats his job and if he chooses not to thats up to him but all this stuff about bubble alignment, bubble types, printing errors on cards is just clutching at straws from what i can see and proves nothing, you can check every palitoy card in the world and probably find something wrong with it as you can probably do the same with kenners.

To me, the investigative work belongs to Toni to prove beyond a doubt. Not me. As far as I'm concerned, the turd was dumped on the line, and I don't want to have anything to do with it from this day forward.

Asking him to refund me in the face of these allegations is not only "understandable" as he suggested, but justified, and him not responding to my requests or making any attempt to disprove what's been suggested either directly to me or to a community demanding answers screams wrongdoing.

 

[ace]

one thing we can agree on is this tread is important and thats why i have bothered to deal with all this thrash about me and my past , i have better things to do that defend myself agent people that do not know the truth and do not even know me but i say on her to see it to the end .

so how about this rather than coming out with random i think someone said comment you stick to he facts , thats what we have been doing on here all the time getting the facts and proving the facts .

hearsay and sorties from people with no names and no facts is just trash and dose not help anyone get to the bottom of this so ether call me out with facts on something and let me face my accuser or just give it a rest and lets get on with dealing with a real crime is that simple

jason

its very simple! the whole point of this thread is to air or portray ANY reasonable suspicion anyone may have about anything in regards to faked cards that they may have! NO? :wink: And seeing as I'm now left thinking near all of my TT moc are legit (i think) :| & the only deffo suspect one im left with is an ironed hoth stormie i loved ive turned my attention to working out where he and the many exactly like him with upside down bubbles came from, and ive since found out from the person i bought him from many years ago who bought it in the very early 90s himself in England says it was wasn't from TT which could mean it stemmed from you seeing as you had 500 hoth stormies during a very doubtful period as per written in this thread, did you not ??? , it might not mean this iron job does stem from you but these are the only facts i have right or wrong but i will know eventually as the blokes sivving thru any records he thinks he has on the who and where , and just too add any of this does not detract from anything TT has done and the possibility of his large scale fraud here that you seem concerned to tell me ,my concern right now is what i have and where that came from & sadly & unavoidably your in that loop , if your so kean to face an accuser and dispell any rumours and stick to facts why dont you ellaborate to me personally about these 500 hoths stormies you had as im obviously unclear as to exactly when you had them and what you done with them all , you can pm if you wish with an detailed answer if you feel you want too keep this thread to the real crime as you put it with only tonis dealings highlighted[/quote]



"jay" I can see you have not read the this thread in total . This has been covered weeks ago on here. If you want to disbelieve what i am saying fine, frankly i cannot be bothered to try to explain it anymore if you think i am guilty of something you know nothing about then good for you enjoy , but if you do read this thread it will explain and give the answers as i have posted about all this before .

I sold 500 odd Hoth troopers, your troopper may have come from me or jim stevenson as i bought them from Arthur Ballie and jim bought them from Toni so it could have come from any one of us or the peopel we sold them on to ?

These are the facts, the ironed figures are not the big story here there is no smoking gun here. if you had read this thread, as i have said i had these figures and boba fetts i have even given proof of this that i had then and sold then from collectors from the time and put the proof up on this thread, so what points you are trying to make Jay are old news its not what this is all about anymore. there is nothing i have to hide its been all gone over if you think you can find something my friend go for it but its going to turn out to be a waste of mine and your time, when the real issue the big faud and its these card backs and probably about £500.000k to £10,00,000m over the last 20 years by one person that will not say a word now even if he is still in the UK? and thats Toni

so jay say what every you want i cannot stop you all i can say is everyone thats been on here sins day one and myself have heard it already , believe what you want but i want to stick to trying to get the a point where we can prove what figures are affected and whats clean that will help many people what you are bringing up is just a wast of time .

sorry for being very frank with you jay but i do think we should help each other solve the real crime and wast more time nothing

 

[jimbody1]

Yeah agreed.

I can understand his scilenc.

But why buy all those mint figures under a second account?

i have three ebay accounts, ive bought loose figures on all of them over time, how many dealers on here have more than one account i know pete has, so has robbie, does this mean theyre doing something suspect? i dont think so. does toni sell in other places?, probably. so i asked myself is it worth buying u graded figures to break them out of their cases to put them on cards that have a chance of being found to be fake? the answer i came up with is no, is it worth buying figures ( looking at the screen shot ) cheap to sell them on again for more profit ( im sure this is what dealers have done for years ) yes. where is he selling them? i dont know. is it possible he has more than two ebay accounts? hell yeah!

 

[jimbody1]

If someone had unused cardbacks and bubbles and there was a pretty abundant supply of loose figures then it would definitely be worth the return. The tricky bit would probably be the sealing process.

Let's not lose sight of a few very interesting points on all this.

Jason doesn't come on here with the view to dropping toni in it. He was invited on here by a member. The Toni revelation comes out in one of his messages.

Toni says that he didn't know Arthur bailey very well but was actually a business partner with him for a few years.

Toni has had numerous ebay accounts and has now set the latest to private. Some of these accoubts were used to buy mint figure that correlate to the list Jason produced.

Toni has definitely sold unused palitoy cards backs in the past.

Toni goes silent.

We could get hung up on the seals but the chances are that over this many years you can bet that someone could get much better at sealing them. Looking for tells would probably work on some cards but not all as the sealing process would have evolved making common trends much more difficult to spot.

dont mean to be funny mate but i bet you , me and just about everyone else on here has bought figures named on jases list.

 

[lee gray]

Here are scans of the Palitoy Hoth Stormtrooper cardback with a Boots price sticker on that I've owned since 1983 which may come in useful as a comparison to the Toni cards:

http://i885.photobucket.com/albums/ac60/jamashsim72/img002_zps4956a707.jpg

http://i885.photobucket.com/albums/ac60/jamashsim72/img003_zps7e364b96.jpg

Hope the links work.

James.

Which proves that even with the red blob on the back they were sold in store as QC wasnt top priority now heres Tofu the cuttest 3 legged dog around [youtube]ITFJgSld8xk[/youtube]

 

[finestcomics]

Yeah agreed.

I can understand his scilenc.

But why buy all those mint figures under a second account?

i have three ebay accounts, ive bought loose figures on all of them over time, how many dealers on here have more than one account i know pete has, so has robbie, does this mean theyre doing something suspect? i dont think so. does toni sell in other places?, probably. so i asked myself is it worth buying u graded figures to break them out of their cases to put them on cards that have a chance of being found to be fake? the answer i came up with is no, is it worth buying figures ( looking at the screen shot ) cheap to sell them on again for more profit ( im sure this is what dealers have done for years ) yes. where is he selling them? i dont know. is it possible he has more than two ebay accounts? hell yeah!

I have two eBay accounts. At one time three, but decided to combine the buying/selling some 10 years ago. The matter at hand suggests something else, which is the immediate knee-jerk reaction to changing his profile to private once this revelation surfaced. An eBay account which has a record of "best condition" loose figure purchases. Does the average joe with no history of selling MOC's go to the trouble and risk of assembling MOC's at home? Perhaps not. But the allegations aren't of a person with an average joe MO. They are of an individual who was recognized as being a gold standard dealer with an endless supply of "case fresh" MOC's. Even actors find themselves playing out the role in real life they were only meant to play on the screen.

 

[Caswellbot]

Let's not forget the quantities Jim. A lot of the figures he was buying corresponds to the list and he was buying multiples. One, two, three ebay account I could prob get my head around but 30??

 

[Grant_C]

All good points.

Also- a lot of Toni's ugrades came from trades for his MOCs.

 

[jay4]

I sold 500 odd Hoth troopers, your troopper may have come from me or jim stevenson as i bought them from Arthur Ballie and jim bought them from Toni so it could have come from any one of us or the peopel we sold them on to ?



good grief mr joiner :lol: EXACTLY what ive said all along and its all ive ever said you have finally got it thank god :wink: your in the loop of where they all stemmed from theres 4 people in that loop all of which you just named above INC YOU :x , i tell you what i will just assume that it could have only been one of the other 3 doing some ironing of all these hoth stormies and any others and theres no way it couldve been you if that makes you happy
and why the **** you would think hundreds of faked hoth stormies is irrelevant in circulaton i dont know , you need a reality check my man , ask anyone whos got one or upside down bubble if they think its irrelavant .i know what the answer will be
i told you why i was interested in hoth stormie as he is pretty much the only one i have left in doubt ,