Resealed figure discovery debate - G.Kurtz Palitoy VC Jawa.

[Joseph_Y]

for those wanting to categorize these as bootlegs......no, just no. they're Palitoy/GM cards, Kenner figures, all licensed product. When they were sealed and by who is the question, not if the components (other than maybe bubbles) are in question. Calling them bootlegs is a disservice to those of us that collect actual bootlegs that weren't made to rip anyone (other than Kenner) off. :lol:

Cheers
Joe

Visit the home of SW bootlegs on the internet:
www.theouterrealmsw.com

 

[walkie]

I'm also not that naive to assume everybody is going to be satisfied with any aftermath to this,but surely the remaining card stock would be wanted as some sort of compensation if there is no chance of any monetary compensation?...

I don't think the unused cardbacks have any value - bear in mind the ones graded by AFA were done so as proofs, so they are now null and void too. People may want them, but they are unassembled stock, just like the bubbles, so should not be in circulation.

I have no horse in this race, nor do I collect MOC's. That said anybody who feels it would be a good idea to keep these unused cards and bubbles in circulation needs a reality check.

Hopefully when the correct authorities are involved they are all seized and destroyed.

 

[Lee Bullock]

I think cardbacks and bubbles remaining in circulation is setting the hobby up for a fall in the future. I think the best course of action is the stock going to either Sansweet and only Sansweet - as ROW is actually classed as a museum, the Victoria and Albert museum - again will never see the light of day again or if worst comes the worst destroy them.

It was mentioned that an impartial party (myself and Dave Tree were mentioned) might be a good interface between TT and the community to negotiate compensation, and to recover the materials - and to give TT a way out of this (the worst thing that could happen is TT being backed up with nowhere to go - and him going underground) I would be willing to do that as I have no TT pieces. We should now start to think about damage limitation and getting TT to come clean and work with us.

Lee

Also - credit where credit is due to Jason Joiner on this for coming through and blowing this open - I hope bridges can be built and a stronger collecting community comes out of this.

 

[_Darren_]

I'm also not that naive to assume everybody is going to be satisfied with any aftermath to this,but surely the remaining card stock would be wanted as some sort of compensation if there is no chance of any monetary compensation?...

I don't think the unused cardbacks have any value - bear in mind the ones graded by AFA were done so as proofs, so they are now null and void too. People may want them, but they are unassembled stock, just like the bubbles, so should not be in circulation.

I don't know about that. Unused card backs would go a little way to compensate in my opinion. Lets face it, TT is hardly likely to reimburse everyone for the last 20 years.

Yup....totally agree Oli....as its unlikely any financial compensation is likely a gesture by Toni to compensate collectors affected would be better than nothing.

I personally don't want some custodian to inherit them.....who watches the watchers.

This could be done at the next Farthest From. Bring your affected MOC as proof and its one backer per item. I'm just spitballing,gentlemen. This is an idea that could be streamlined into a solution. And Edd,not to shoot down your example...but you used the cheapest most common backer in your example. An unused Fett backer would fetch MUCH more on the market. I have 2 of TOYTONIs Fetts in my collection. And 2 Farmboy Luke's.....paid around 2 grand to have AFA 90s of those 4.....

So in lieu of any compensation 4 backers would suffice as an alternative.

Do you see what I'm getting at??....Dave Tree is one of the most stand-up guys I know in life and the hobby....sorry for mentioning you Davy,but FF5 might be the most well attended important event yet....and ideal platform to sort this mess.

Darren

 

[Joseph_Y]

One thing AFA/UKG could do to save face AND handle this problem, would be to offer "free recaseing" for any of the suspect figures, at that time they could re examine them, and with the now known information the ones that are legit, just seal the case back up, and the ones that aren't legit, label as modern seals, "apparent AFA" (insert grade here), similar to what CGC does with restored comics. that'd work, keep some visually nice looking figures in circulation, and have them labeled correctly.

Just a thought
Joe

 

[Richard_H]

Oh man Joe you've just disproved 'great minds think alive!'

:lol: I suggested that a little further up. But it is at least a step in the right direction.

 

[edd_jedi]

I know they use a 'Q' grade for video games and consoles that they believe are new but not factory sealed (eg Q85) so that could work.

EDIT - the difference is though, when a game or console is new, it IS perfect. It's such a shame that crappy condition figures end up on genuine sealed cards, it basically makes the job of identifying a new (or uncirculated) figure impossible.

 

[Joe]

I just keep reading this reply from Toni over and over:

hi Jason I got you previous email and I do totally understand you comments .These items are important to collectors and mean a lot to them . I am sorry about what is happening in that community .Basically Im overwhelemed by all this .regards Toni

It's not an admission of guilt by any means but the fact that he apologises for what's happening to the community just jumps out at me each time I read it.

 

[edd_jedi]

It's not an admission of guilt by any means but the fact that he apologises for what's happening to the community just jumps out at me each time I read it.

I'd hazard a guess he's thinking "****, there goes the retirement fund!"

 

[_Darren_]

I'm also not that naive to assume everybody is going to be satisfied with any aftermath to this,but surely the remaining card stock would be wanted as some sort of compensation if there is no chance of any monetary compensation?...

I don't think the unused cardbacks have any value - bear in mind the ones graded by AFA were done so as proofs, so they are now null and void too. People may want them, but they are unassembled stock, just like the bubbles, so should not be in circulation.

I have no horse in this race, nor do I collect MOC's. That said anybody who feels it would be a good idea to keep these unused cards and bubbles in circulation needs a reality check.

Hopefully when the correct authorities are involved they are all seized and destroyed.

There are no "correct authorities",Walkie.....we are the custodians of the hobby. And if you haven't been burned in this I don't value your opinion as much as somebody who has....sorry.

Lee Bullock,who I called out earlier along with Davy....feels this way also.....and I totally respect him and his opinion. But like him he's not invested in this and it's easy to form the opinion that they should just be destroyed.....it's the easiest option. But sometimes the easiest is not the best. Consultation between collectors affected and consensus should be reached. If the overwhelming groundswell is to destroy them then majority rules. But if you haven't got an iron in the fire,your opinion should be moot....or at least muted.

Actually having re-read the previous sentence,that makes me sound like a tool.
I don't wanna come across as entitled or argumentative. That's definitely not my intention. I'm sore about what this episode has cost me financially. Any reparations might soften the blow. But to shoot down any alternatives so early in any prospective solution to this clusterfuck is foolish and misguided.

All opinions need to be considered before dismissing them offhand. Then we can move on.


And Lee....thanks for stepping up.....you don't shirk when asked up to the plate.

Nice one,mate.

Darren

 

[jedisearcher]

Aren't you writing cheques here that others won't cash?

Toni hasn't admitted to doing anything wrong.

AFA haven't admitted anything is wrong with what they've graded, and you've got no idea what they might say. In fact, admitting there was a problem and they've graded fakes will leave them with little or no credibility. FFS they graded the childsplay ironed cards!!

UKG not sure, they prob just follow AFAs lead.

Yes the fresh cards have value, but they won't when 5000 hit the shelves.

Sorry to be negative but I think the authorities are the only way forward for now. They can pay damages to victims of crime and the little **** has assets.

 

[Grant_C]

unfortunately there are authorities that deal with fraud.

I had no idea we were the mafia and could 'send the boys round' who I'm guessing have search and seizure rights......because they are respected in a collecting forum?

It would be great if it could work out this way but its is a complete fantasy. Especially as this technique will be so we can all get a card back.

Whats the plan B when the star wars mafia go missing, but there clothes are washed up on the beach lol-

Serious- if you want guarantees that everything is accounted for a done by the book. Call the people who do this for a living.

 

[lee gray]

Hey...why is my lightsaber so small....ahem

Edd.....your points seem very measured.....but I don't think donating the contraband if it was voluntarily offered up to Sansweet is any sort of redress to those affected.

Darren

I got to admit that solution dumbfounded me

 

[edd_jedi]

I think the general consensus Grant is that the authorities won't give a ****. Royal Mail and eBay don't even refund your money if the packaging of a MOC gets damaged, so why would the police care about a guy selling genuine items in genuine packaging that was just sealed at home rather than at a factory? Sorry but the suggestion that there will be any legal implications or financial reimbursements here is the real fantasy.

 

[Hothrebel]

Unless tony admits to anything this will go nowhere and I cannot see that happening anytime soon!

 

[Grant_C]

Edd,

I'm not talking about any reimbursement.

I'm talking about a crime that would be no different if it was fake diamonds. I dint think the authorities see the commodity. They would see the value and profit.

I am sure that they deal with this kind of stuff daily and would have the powers to seize the bubbles and cardbacks to stop them circulating as well as ascertaining 100% proof that a crime has been committed.

The Royal Mail and the Fraud Squad are completely different.

 

[_Darren_]

Aren't you writing cheques here that others won't cash?

Toni hasn't admitted to doing anything wrong.

AFA haven't admitted anything is wrong with what they've graded, and you've got no idea what they might say. In fact, admitting there was a problem and they've graded fakes will leave them with little or no credibility. FFS they graded the childsplay ironed cards!!

UKG not sure, they prob just follow AFAs lead.

Yes the fresh cards have value, but they won't when 5000 hit the shelves.

Sorry to be negative but I think the authorities are the only way forward for now. They can pay damages to victims of crime and the little **** has assets.

It's unlikely Toni ever will admit to any wrong doing.....maybe???
With Jason seemingly back in the fold perhaps anything is possible.

What's next?.....Richard Torres unearthing 4 sealed cases of Palitoy VCJs and handing them out to anybody he ripped off???


I don't think anybody is getting money back.....sad but true. And no legal argument is going to take him down either....it all looks very difficult to nail down the nature of the fraud. And with AFA/UKG involved its even more convoluted. I bought all of my pieces 3rd party. They came from Toni,were graded then I bought them. So is my beef with the seller or Toni??

Obviously Toni. The reseller bought them in good faith so my beef is with the vendor and to a lesser extent AFA.

Talk of legal action,trading standards and inland revenue is mumbo jumbo....Al Capone was a gangster.....Toni isn't dangerous....unless you're into buying GM or Palitoys. Then he's the Don.

Darren

 

[Joseph_Y]

Oh man Joe you've just disproved 'great minds think alive!'

:lol: I suggested that a little further up. But it is at least a step in the right direction.

Didn't see it, I've been mostly scanning thru the last few pages since the bomb dropped. Just sensory overload with everything being posted.

Cheers
J

 

[lee gray]

I personally think its pathetic to send a lynch mob round with people thinking they are the internet tough guys but stupid enough to post they would do it in a forum where it could be screenshot for evidence when still not proof, however i am not against people going round for a constructive talk.

Also whether the cardbacks are deemed worthless or not, I wouldnt mind having one as collectings not all about what something is worth

 

[_Lee_]

AFA - AFA are not an authentication service. They tell you how nice they think it looks with the AFA grade and then put it in a nice box for you. And that's it.

Jason

So the same could be said for the Palitoy VCJ now Jason?? something you said could never be the case a few months ago?? And no,im not trying to rub salt into the wound but it just proves that you cant rely on them as such.

I seriously think that some of the 138 unused ESB cards also on that list that JJ posted,could have been early Palitoy cards with logo.Together with that,and bubbles being on the list is convienient for any scam merchant.Perhaps TT saw there could be a market for the VCJ's too,but we will most likely never know.

FWIW,TT has taken loads of my money in the past,but i echo Edds comments about the law being involved.Its not your everyday scam,its been well constructed and oiled for 20 odd years.They are not forgeries as such,as they are original pieces.We know the list JJ compiled looks to be the big smoking gun,but to the law its circumstantial.