Resealed figure discovery debate - G.Kurtz Palitoy VC Jawa.

[Grant_C]

[

to me the seals look the same lol! also yours looks like it has a slight lifting down the right hand side ( although that may just be the picture). tbh this one looks like the same as all the other double stem toni seals but this one is shop bought.

Yeah- theres no lifting- the seal is perfect (AFA90 material)

Im trying to compare seals as I believe that a lot of these seals maybe fine and that the post factory seals maybe easy to spot.

My shop bought Leia Hoth seal is exact to my Toytoni Bespin Luke, TFP and Fett. So I'm thinking maybe a lot of these are actually legit.

Just comparing:

Notice the difference?

As to which one is legit is beyond me, but a guess- id say the 2nd (waffle) is not legit and the other (transparent) seal is right. Or Visa Versa :?

The second one also looks like its missing some paint on the card seal. White Specks. Like this is a second attempt. :?:

 

[Grant_C]

The seal is easier to spot differences on this MOC than some others because the black background.

If we could see a TIE Pilot Palitoy 45a seal and compare it to a 45b- we might see some similarities.

I don't have one though or can find a high-res picture.

I would like to buy one though.


Edit: Does anyone still care about this? :lol: I don't care if you don't- i'll just use it to get my post count up since theres a lack of wacko's on here recently to have long threads about.

 

[Caswellbot]

I agree Grant. Definitely don't like the look of the seal on the second one.

 

[jay4]

[

to me the seals look the same lol! also yours looks like it has a slight lifting down the right hand side ( although that may just be the picture). tbh this one looks like the same as all the other double stem toni seals but this one is shop bought.

Yeah- theres no lifting- the seal is perfect (AFA90 material)

Im trying to compare seals as I believe that a lot of these seals maybe fine and that the post factory seals maybe easy to spot.

My shop bought Leia Hoth seal is exact to my Toytoni Bespin Luke, TFP and Fett. So I'm thinking maybe a lot of these are actually legit.

Just comparing:

Notice the difference?

As to which one is legit is beyond me, but a guess- id say the 2nd (waffle) is not legit and the other (transparent) seal is right. Or Visa Versa :?

The second one also looks like its missing some paint on the card seal. White Specks. Like this is a second attempt. :?:

the colour breaking/white flecking on cards under the bubble is reasonably common .its normally just from back kick from the heat press machines pulling it or when the bubble cools down after the heat seal process causing the bubble to pull / retract or expand on the top paper layer of the card slitely as it cools back down ( as with anything thats hot or cold temporarily plastic expands or decreases causing stress in the case of these it can cause that colour break

 

[jimbody1]

[

to me the seals look the same lol! also yours looks like it has a slight lifting down the right hand side ( although that may just be the picture). tbh this one looks like the same as all the other double stem toni seals but this one is shop bought.

Yeah- theres no lifting- the seal is perfect (AFA90 material)

Im trying to compare seals as I believe that a lot of these seals maybe fine and that the post factory seals maybe easy to spot.

My shop bought Leia Hoth seal is exact to my Toytoni Bespin Luke, TFP and Fett. So I'm thinking maybe a lot of these are actually legit.

Just comparing:

Notice the difference?

As to which one is legit is beyond me, but a guess- id say the 2nd (waffle) is not legit and the other (transparent) seal is right. Or Visa Versa :?

The second one also looks like its missing some paint on the card seal. White Specks. Like this is a second attempt. :?:

That's what looked like bubble lift to me, I had a similar issue with a Kenner 45b stormie which had the seal taped, when I had the tape removed to of the mocs were ok the other came off as the seal was crap, this had a similar affect on the card to what you have there. The litho came away with the bubble and was very hard to see on the remains of the bubble.

 

[Grant_C]

the colour breaking/white flecking on cards under the bubble is reasonably common .its normally just from back kick from the heat press machines pulling it or when the bubble cools down after the heat seal process causing the bubble to pull / retract or expand on the top paper layer of the card slitely as it cools back down ( as with anything thats hot or cold temporarily plastic expands or decreases causing stress in the case of these it can cause that colour break

ok, 8)
Wouldn't that paint be visible on the bubble? Like it is on a re-seal?

 

[jay4]

the colour breaking/white flecking on cards under the bubble is reasonably common .its normally just from back kick from the heat press machines pulling it or when the bubble cools down after the heat seal process causing the bubble to pull / retract or expand on the top paper layer of the card slitely as it cools back down ( as with anything thats hot or cold temporarily plastic expands or decreases causing stress in the case of these it can cause that colour break

ok, 8)
Wouldn't that paint be visible on the bubble? Like it is on a re-seal?

maybe ! i suppose it depends if the paint dried out completely and disintigrated the past 30 years or so which can sometimes actually be seen on very close scrutiny at the very bottom of the inside of bubble and it just looks like very very very fine barely noticable dust if its not worked its way out the bottom of the bubble that is

 

[Grant_C]

See, I have a hunch that these post factory seals are easy to spot.

I'm thinking that it could be possible that the UKG/AFA graded ones could all be fine.

I would really like:

A way of finding out the stuff Toni has been buying from dealers and his second ebay account and match it to what he has been selling.

And a picture of Palitoy 45a TFP Please.

Just look how the Shop purchased Leia Hoth and Toytoni TFP are the same seal compared each other:

 

[jimbody1]

yeah the seals look very similar, there always going to be some discrepency between bubbles, card placement etc even the bubbles are not going to be exactly the same. looking at the palitoy factory footage the bubbles are not a tight fit in the sealers and the pins for locating the cards cant be a tight fit as there has to be some leway as the kiss cutting process for cutting the cards from the sheet isnt perfect ( i know this for a fact having worked in the industry for a short time ). i would reckon theres going to be at least 2-3mm play either way.

 

[Grant_C]

Yeah- I hear what your saying- worked on a few processing lines myself.

I just think it's quite possible to find these modern seals as they may look like second spray adhesive looking.

Like these:

Maybe its that simple.

 

[jimbody1]

yeah they dont look right to me either, there must be a tell if spray adhesive has been used, it gets everywhere and is a right ****er to clean up.

 

[Grant_C]

All of the above are on that list.

Jason

Is there more than this before his eBay went private?

 

[spoons]

Edit: Does anyone still care about this? :lol: I don't care if you don't- i'll just use it to get my post count up since theres a lack of wacko's on here recently to have long threads about.

Nope :lol:

Your waffle paint lift bubble looks good to me. As other grant said before, we are 100 pages in and no nearer to spotting a fake - kind of says there aren't many out there. I'm not convinced by the large bubble debate either.

After all this I'm glad I didn't panic sell anything

Hope I'm right

 

[Grant_C]

Mmmmmm.......

Maybe its possible to easily detect these 'fakes'. Looking at my ROTJ Palitoy and comparing my TT- they are exact.

Perhaps there are a few post factory sealed cards, but im thinking that there is a good chance that the majority of his MOCs could be ok.

Or this is the delusional part of the morning process :?

 

[jimbody1]

Mmmmmm.......

Maybe its possible to easily detect these 'fakes'. Looking at my ROTJ Palitoy and comparing my TT- they are exact.

ive said this from the off but ill say it again, ive had loads of shop bought pali mocs that have been exactly the same as tt pali mocs ive even had a shop bought gm and tonis have been the same BUT some people seem to want to find problems which im sure if you looked at kenners for long enough you would find similar problems with. as has already been pointed out they was massed produced, meant to be ripped off their cards and while there was some qc it obviously wasnt what it is today. yes i know there is lots of circumstantial evidence ( the second account etc ) but nothing concrete that would stand up in a court if im being honest, yes we know about the obviously ironed on bubbles but didnt jj get all his from arthur? wasnt this before arthur produced the list? whos to say toni didnt buy some from him too. we only have jj's word that toni bought everything on the list from arthur and im sure he must have had dealings with others as well as toni so who can say for sure? obviously toni hasnt helped himself by saying not a lot but what he has said is simple and to the point ( denial ).
i dont think this debate is going anywhere now, were all tying each other up in knots and it seems more and more likely as time goes on that most seem to be legit. people seem to have forgotten that this stuff came from palitoy as it was closing and lets face it palitoy never had great qc anyway and im sure if you was just trying to get as much stock out the doors as possible you wouldve been putting any bubble you could find on any card/ figure itd fit by the end rather than thinking does it look right. back then the unused cards wouldve been worth nowt if carded figures was worth maybe a couple of quid each so why would you buy them, im sure other dealers woulve managed to get hold of the odd unused card as well as toni but lets face it back then who the feck would want 1000's of unused cards?

 

[Starzone]

I've got to disagree.....It seems people are trying really hard to prove these are genuine.

Shouldn't that be Toni's job? Why has he stopped selling them and why was he spending big bucks on loose figures?

This is my last post about the subject, too many questions, no answers and round and round in circles we go.

 

[Grant]

Mmmmmm.......

Maybe its possible to easily detect these 'fakes'. Looking at my ROTJ Palitoy and comparing my TT- they are exact.

ive said this from the off but ill say it again, ive had loads of shop bought pali mocs that have been exactly the same as tt pali mocs ive even had a shop bought gm and tonis have been the same BUT some people seem to want to find problems which im sure if you looked at kenners for long enough you would find similar problems with. as has already been pointed out they was massed produced, meant to be ripped off their cards and while there was some qc it obviously wasnt what it is today. yes i know there is lots of circumstantial evidence ( the second account etc ) but nothing concrete that would stand up in a court if im being honest, yes we know about the obviously ironed on bubbles but didnt jj get all his from arthur? wasnt this before arthur produced the list? whos to say toni didnt buy some from him too. we only have jj's word that toni bought everything on the list from arthur and im sure he must have had dealings with others as well as toni so who can say for sure? obviously toni hasnt helped himself by saying not a lot but what he has said is simple and to the point ( denial ).
i dont think this debate is going anywhere now, were all tying each other up in knots and it seems more and more likely as time goes on that most seem to be legit. people seem to have forgotten that this stuff came from palitoy as it was closing and lets face it palitoy never had great qc anyway and im sure if you was just trying to get as much stock out the doors as possible you wouldve been putting any bubble you could find on any card/ figure itd fit by the end rather than thinking does it look right. back then the unused cards wouldve been worth nowt if carded figures was worth maybe a couple of quid each so why would you buy them, im sure other dealers woulve managed to get hold of the odd unused card as well as toni but lets face it back then who the feck would want 1000's of unused cards?

This is what I'm thinking myself ^^^...

Except Id love 1000's of unused cards because then we'd all be able to have one or two in our own collections as exactly what they were supposed to be just an used card for a focus or what ever.

 

[Caswellbot]

I agree with Darren on this one. I have also just looks again at Grants pics of the tfp bubbles. the second one doesn't sit right with me. Id like to see it in hand but it just looks wrong. I understand the comment about litho being lifted from the card when the the bubble heats and contracts in the heating process and i have seen plenty of examples of those but this doesn't look like that to me.

 

[jimbody1]

This is what I'm thinking myself ^^^...

Except Id love 1000's of unused cards because then we'd all be able to have one or two in our own collections as exactly what they were supposed to be just an used card for a focus or what ever.

lol! i can just picture it now, toni 20+ years ago " yeah ill buy those 1000's of unused cardbacks, i may well be able to buy mint figures and figure out a way to seal them to the cards with all these unused bubbles 10 years down the line "

yeahright! :lol:

 

[finestcomics]

This is what I'm thinking myself ^^^...

Except Id love 1000's of unused cards because then we'd all be able to have one or two in our own collections as exactly what they were supposed to be just an used card for a focus or what ever.

lol! i can just picture it now, toni 20+ years ago " yeah ill buy those 1000's of unused cardbacks, i may well be able to buy mint figures and figure out a way to seal them to the cards with all these unused bubbles 10 years down the line "

yeahright! :lol:

Just some perspective. I bought a collection from a single source. Somewhere around 10,000 books. They've mostly been kept intact and undisturbed for at least 10 years. I have a fairly good idea what was in the collection. It's got some multiples of issues which are impossible to forget. When an issue suddenly becomes hot, I pick a few books out and sell them. I haven't made a dent in the total number, but I know slowly doling them out when the market is hot has served me well. I have never seen a reason to just dump them on the market and sell them for a song because I've already made my money back selling a few hundred books from the total lot. If you're into something interest free, and can afford to sit on it, the idea of selling them when the market demand exists is plenty worthwhile.