Premier League 23/24 Thread

[theforceuk]

Spurs are doing unbelievably well and they may well have finally hit the jackpot with the coach. But Jesus they've been buying a raffle ticket every 2 seasons for decades, it had to happen eventually. Just like Liverpool, took them 30 years to get the right man. You can't count Banitez for fluking the CL!

 

[weasel]

I would say all of his permanent signings apart from Mount walk straight into the team when everyone is fit. Malacia being the exception but he's a young left back. All the signings he's made are consistent with all the signings over the last decade that Utd have made. Which for me points towards the lack of sporting director at the club. Main stream media will come out with statements like he's had 16 players. When in fact he's had 8 permanent signings one being a free transfer. Hojland is a brilliant signing, but he's in the graveyard shift as the number 9. Antony had a descent first season 10 goals. Never a £90 million player, but Ten Hag doesn't negotiate the price of a player.

Then you've got the nonsense that he's playing like Ole and Jose, not true, we're number 1 for winning the ball in the final third. He's also going to be the fastest Man Utd coach ever to win 50 games. He's baffling me with his persistence with Rashford, Bruno and McSauce. But again 2 of those he tried to sell and they clearly aren't good enough. Some how they keep ending up back in the first team. You can't dismiss the fact his entire defence has been decimated all season, Klopp and Pep would see a dip in performance and indeed have in the past.

Also I would love someone to explain to me what the plan is if you sack Ten Hag, I'm pretty sure I could dismantle any argument for bringing another coach in now. Let's face it if he did get sacked the Glazers would probably get Darren Fletcher as interim coach until the end of the season. £800 million of debt, rotting stadium, no money to spend in January, players that aren't good enough but can't be sold, yeah good luck new manager.

I agree with chunks of what you say. Not sure I would call Anthony's first season "decent". 'Underwhelming' would be my choice of word. He hasn't looked worth even half of what Utd paid. I do agree that isn't necessarily Ten Hag's fault, he doesn't negotiate the fee. And, yeah, sacking him just moves you back to square one. Club loyalty aside, I wouldn't sack him. He's a decent manager, I'm not sure you get a better one if you fire him, and Utd are a shambles. I am not sure he is the man to sort it out and return Utd to their glory days (I dont think anyone could do that) but I think he is as good as you will get and he should sort out SOME of the mess.

As for his defence being injured, yeap, look how well Pool did the season they had no CB's. You can argue it is poor squad manage, a few Utd fans told me that when Pool struggled. But I think that's harsh. Injuries happen but in an average season you don't expect to have all 3 of your CB's out for the season by Jan in Pool's case, or a procession of 1-2 months injuries for two thirds of your defenders in Utd's case. Freak situations and ETH deserves to cut some slack for it.

Saying that he is making a few strange calls. Was Varane injured at the weekend and not fit to start? Otherwise he should be in. I might have been tempted to risk a half fit Varane but I dont know the scale of the injury/fitness. Even at that, Lindeloft at LB? Why not play him at CB, is he not better than fat maguire and Johnny Evans? Casemiro benched? Same as Varane.
But all managers make weird calls, and I dont know fitness levels etc. Those ones just seemed very strange to me.

It does have the feel of media vultures starting to circle though. A few wins will sort that, but this has been a poor season so far for Utd. They have regressed from last year, even allowing for injuries. 28 games to go though!

 

[theforceuk]

The team selection is baffling, Casemiro was still injured from the international break. The rest I really don't know what he's thinking. One thought I had is he could be thinking about the Newcastle game on Wednesday??? I mean Man City were always going to beat us and perhaps he thinks the league cup could save him??

One thing I do know is when Ten Hag leaves Man Utd there will be plenty of clubs in Europe offering him a job and given the right conditions I believe he's a top coach. You don't get Ajax to within 3 minutes of a CL final without having some skill level.

28 games to go, on present form that's another 14 defeats. That would mean we finish with 57 points. Abismal.

 

[edd_jedi]

Spurs have played no one of note and have been quite lucky so far imo

I definitely can't argue that things have gone our way this season so far, will see how long it lasts! IMO you can't win anything without a bit of luck. Somebody pointed this out to me yesterday though, Spurs (and a few other teams) haven't been awarded any penalties yet, look who's miles out in front again...

 

[theforceuk]

Yeah I saw a stat the other day it showed since Klopp moaned about Man Utd getting to many pens Man City have had 18, Liverpool 14 and Man Utd 4. I pointed out it just shows how little Man Utd spend in the opponents penalty box compared to the top teams.

I watched Spurs against Palace, Maddison was the player for me, everything went through him. Table doesn't lie.

 

[lejackal]

The table doesn't lie but there was a heavy dose of cynicism to Arsenals title challenge credentials last year, and we didn't concede it until fairly late in the day

 

[theforceuk]

Oh yeah I agree and I don't think Spurs will do it. That said Spurs have been closer to winning one of the big trophies than Arsenal in the last 10 years. Arsenals title challenge literally came from know where. Spurs has kind of but they have a group of players that have pushed for top 4 consistently recently.

We all know Man City will end up winning it.

 

[weasel]

Yeah I saw a stat the other day it showed since Klopp moaned about Man Utd getting to many pens Man City have had 18, Liverpool 14 and Man Utd 4.

I think that's called "mean reversion". There was a season, maybe the yr Utd did well under Ole, were Utd got something daft like 17 penalties. I think the next highest was 8-10. That was just a weird statistical quirk. I think they got more penalties than any side in PL history. Now they are getting slightly fewer than you would expect. Not to do with Ref's thinking "ohh it's Utd they get loads of pens, I better not give it." More just the other side of the coin from the time when they got tonnes.

I haven't explained that well at all. But it's like City getting cushy home draw after cushy home draw in the domestic cups, you know eventually they will hit a patch of tricky away ties….and probably still ******* cruise them.

 

[Cazza]

Comfortable win in the end Typical we get Liverpool away in the next round

 

[lejackal]

Yep, fully deserved - we were *****

 

[Cazza]

Yeah, Arsenal weren't great, but we were excellent in the second half. Came out all guns blazing. Kudus looks like a great signing.

Does Ben White own a mirror?

 

[weasel]

You were better than Utd.

Comfortable win in the end Typical we get Liverpool away in the next round

Aye, probably the hardest draw you could have got. Maybe
Newcastle away is up there (though Pool have won there three times in a year ish).
I suspect it's one of those games were either Pool cruise to a 3-1 ish win, or WH play like they did last night, Pool have an off night and anything could happen.

Not sure if the whole draw is great or not. The Chelsea Newcastle and Pool WH ties do have the four best sides left in it playing each other. Is that 'good' cos the neutral gets to see four decent games, or 'bad' cos that means the two winners could well be in for very cushy semi final draws (or if they draw each other a formality of a final like the Utd Milwall FAC final from yrs ago)? Tiz nice to see so called smaller sides make a final and I know a final or even a trophy would mean more to Boro, Fulham, Port Vale etc. but as a neutral is a (say) Chelsea/Newcastle/Pool/WH final not more appealing than one of those four duffing Middlesbrough?

 

[lejackal]

You were better than Utd.


Aye, probably the hardest draw you could have got. Maybe
Newcastle away is up there (though Pool have won there three times in a year ish).
I suspect it's one of those games were either Pool cruise to a 3-1 ish win, or WH play like they did last night, Pool have an off night and anything could happen.

Not sure if the whole draw is great or not. The Chelsea Newcastle and Pool WH ties do have the four best sides left in it playing each other. Is that 'good' cos the neutral gets to see four decent games, or 'bad' cos that means the two winners could well be in for very cushy semi final draws (or if they draw each other a formality of a final like the Utd Milwall FAC final from yrs ago)? Tiz nice to see so called smaller sides make a final and I know a final or even a trophy would mean more to Boro, Fulham, Port Vale etc. but as a neutral is a (say) Chelsea/Newcastle/Pool/WH final not more appealing than one of those four duffing Middlesbrough?

F*** the neutral, the bigger clubs fans don't care about this (sweeping generalisation) and barely care about the FA cup. I'm all for the smaller (ideally non PL clubs) having a good day. Yeah, I'd like us to win it, but I'm just not that fussed. 1000% means more to even a championship side

 

[Cazza]

I would absolutely love to win this- think Newcastle and Fulham fans would too. Think it's fans of the Sky 6, who play regular European games and win things that don't particularly care.

 

[weasel]

Interesting, given WH's Europa Conference win, but I guess it's a domestic trophy and without meaning to sound patronising, WH haven't won a lot of trophies recently, so I see where you are coming from.

I wonder about Newcastle fans. Yes, they have won FA recently but would they trade a League Cup win for 4th place? I suspect they would.

 

[theforceuk]

I think that's called "mean reversion". There was a season, maybe the yr Utd did well under Ole, were Utd got something daft like 17 penalties. I think the next highest was 8-10. That was just a weird statistical quirk. I think they got more penalties than any side in PL history. Now they are getting slightly fewer than you would expect. Not to do with Ref's thinking "ohh it's Utd they get loads of pens, I better not give it." More just the other side of the coin from the time when they got tonnes.

I haven't explained that well at all. But it's like City getting cushy home draw after cushy home draw in the domestic cups, you know eventually they will hit a patch of tricky away ties….and probably still ******* cruise them.

Cushy home draws don't involve a conscience which only exist from past experiences.

 

[theforceuk]

You were better than Utd.


Aye, probably the hardest draw you could have got. Maybe
Newcastle away is up there (though Pool have won there three times in a year ish).
I suspect it's one of those games were either Pool cruise to a 3-1 ish win, or WH play like they did last night, Pool have an off night and anything could happen.

Not sure if the whole draw is great or not. The Chelsea Newcastle and Pool WH ties do have the four best sides left in it playing each other. Is that 'good' cos the neutral gets to see four decent games, or 'bad' cos that means the two winners could well be in for very cushy semi final draws (or if they draw each other a formality of a final like the Utd Milwall FAC final from yrs ago)? Tiz nice to see so called smaller sides make a final and I know a final or even a trophy would mean more to Boro, Fulham, Port Vale etc. but as a neutral is a (say) Chelsea/Newcastle/Pool/WH final not more appealing than one of those four duffing Middlesbrough?

The year we beat Millwall in the final was the Arsenal 'Invincible' season when Man Utd beat Arsenal 1-0 in the semi final. Paul Scholes.

 

[weasel]

Aye, but that final was one of the most boring I have seen. Milwall turned up, knowing they had lost and just tried to keep the score down. They didnt even 'have a go' at any stage, pure damage limitation. From my, totally neutral on Utd , point of view it was dull as ****.
Even Hull and Wigan made vague attempts to play when they made FAC finals.


Utd to beat Fulham today? Ten Hag will be in a world of trouble if they lose.

 

[theforceuk]

Probably lose today, I've heard Ten Hag is safe no matter what until SJR comes in and assesses the sporting side of things. I hold out no hope for him, he hasn't exactly done a good job with his other sporting ventures.

Lunch time kick off away to Fulham after getting smacked up by Newcastle at OT 3 days ago. No thanks those players won't fancy that at all. 2-0 to Fulham all over it!

If they sack him after today then we are truly screwed IMO.

 

[weasel]

I only saw bits if the Utd game but feck me it was ****. As a lot of lunch time kick offs are TBF.

I did see most of Newcastle Arsenal, which was also ****. Newcastle really are NOT a good side to watch. Newcastle slightly fortunate with the goal. I'm not sure if the ball was out, with the curvature of the ball and the side on angles that I have seen it from there is a chance that part of it was still in. I can see why VAR didn't overrule the ref there. The evidence from the cameras in the stadium definitely isn't "clear and obvious". There isn't enough contact by Joelinton for a foul IMO. Yes, he is a big lumbering oaf, but I don't think he makes enough contact with the defender, who is diving forward anyway, for a foul. If we start giving those there will be six penalties every week.
I have seen them given, and had the ref said the ball was out VAR wouldn't have overruled that either. So Arsenal can feel slightly unfortunate there, or Newcastle can feel fortunate, delete as appropriate.
The offside is the tricky one. IF the first touch is off Joelinton then Gordom looks to be off, if not, then (assuming my interpretation of the offside law/farce is correct) he is onside. I have seen it a few times and I'm still not sure who it hits first. Again, I can see why VAR didn't over rule it. And had the ref/lino flagged VAR wouldn't have over ruled them.

Fortune for Newcastle that the goal stood, or unfortunate for Arsenal, but then Arsenal have had a **** tonne go for them over the last 15 months so they cant have too many complaints when one decision/goal goes against them.

I also think Havertz and Bruno Gumergubbins should have been sent off. That Havertz tackle was only one footed, but he jumps in to it, it aint ******* pretty and I thought those were supposed to be red card offences. Bruno's elbow was no accident and how he got away without punishment I will never know. It could easily have been red. He gets booked later on, but I guess you can counter ague that if he was booked for the elbow he wouldn't have been dumb enough to get the second booking (which is debatable). I still think he did enough to warrant a red.

All in all, a horrible niggly game, devoid of any entertainment and decided by a highly fortunate goal. I can see why VAR didnt say the ball was out, and why it didnt give it for offside. But we have all seen games were decisions like that have gone the other way.

 

[lejackal]

If we want to win those games we need to score. I know it's not that simple, especially against that Newcastle side - dirty, niggling little fuckers from 1-11 (and the subs)

That said Havertz was lucky to stay on, although it was nice seeing him put himself about a bit. Don't know if you saw it @weasel but I think he went in like that again later in the game as well, which went unpunished.

***** game and crap result but no ones going unbeaten anyway.

 

[weasel]

I didnt see the later tackle, I must have dozed off into a coma the game was that exciting.

Still not sure why Arsenal signed Havertz, he doesn't seem to add anything to their squad. Yes, they needed more depth, but for 60(?)m there MUST have been better and cheaper options out there.
The keeper doesn't look much better. I wasn't a part of the Ramsdale love it, TBH I think he's poor and I'm not surprised Arteta tried to upgrade him, but Raya doesn't look the part of a title winning keeper at all.

It's always the way when you lose, or when players have a bad patch/sticky start, that people criticise them and I'll give them both the season before passing judgement. But so far, both look like money wasted.

 

[lejackal]

100% on performances so far we'd have been better off keeping Xhaka and Ramsdale - I have to hope Havertz comes good (although he was doomed the second I got my kid his shirt)

The goalkeeper situation looks like the pressure of two no.1 level (strong disagree on that level from Weasel) keepers is actually making both worse.

 

[Cazza]

Bruno G seems to get away with loads. He was booked against us the other week and a couple of minutes later, committed a worse foul and nothing happened.

Why did Arsenal buy Havertz?

West Ham are doing my head in- I should be used to it after 43 years, but it's excruciating. How we continue with Antonio as a starter, I will never know. Love the guy and he's done amazingly for us over the years, but he's finished as a starter- it's blindingly obvious to everyone apart from Moyes. That open goal yesterday.... Dunno why Brentford are such a massive bogey team for us- they're decent, but nothing special. Thought we were going to do it yesterday, but the second half was so poor. Yeah, we were missing Paqueta and Alvarez, but we just dropped so deep, right from the start.

On a positive note Kudus is looking fantastic and Bowen is going from strength to strength.

 

[Snaketibe]

I agree re the Newcastle goal and it not being overruled by VAR if they didn't have the camera angles available...HOWEVER, how hard could it be (especially in the larger stadiums) to have some cameras that are covering the lines on the pitch? We have goal line technology and it's now an accepted part of the game (and a good job too! Let's face it, the ball either is wholly over the line or it isn't; it shouldn't be a matter of guesswork), so let's have it for the ball going out of play elsewhere too. It can't be beyond the wit of man to achieve this, surely?

As for the potential red cards, I'd have sent off Bruno and Havertz. Both red card offences IMHO. And what the **** is VAR for if an off the ball elbow in the face that the ref clearly missed (or if he did see, didn't think even warranted a yellow!) doesn't get the VAR officials dragging the ref off to the side of the pitch to watch it again on the monitor? I hate the rampant cheating in football (and the fact that it has become an accepted part of the game in so many areas; kicking the ball away, not retreating 10 yards, shirt-pulling, deliberate fouls, time-wasting, appealing for throw ins when you're clearly the one that kicked it out, injury play-acting, etc.), and the fact that it usually goes unpunished, but how the hell is a deliberate, cynical elbow in the face ever NOT a straight red?!

 

[lejackal]

From Arseblog:

"Here is that definition as per the Premier League:

Violent conduct is when a player uses or attempts to use excessive force or brutality against an opponent when not challenging for the ball, or against a team-mate, team official, match official, spectator or any other person, regardless of whether contact is made.

In addition, a player who, when not challenging for the ball, deliberately strikes an opponent or any other person on the head or face with the hand or arm, is guilty of violent conduct unless the force used was negligible.

VAR checked it, and decided it wasn't violent conduct. We later found out that they assessed the fact it was the forearm rather than the elbow, which is specious reasoning, to say the least. Yes, an elbow might be more violent, but if you're going to allow players to use their forearms to hit opponents, start putting ropes around the pitch and rebrand as wrestling."

 

[Cazza]

Finally watched the Newcastle Arsenal highlights. I'd be annoyed if I was a Gooner, but can totally see why it was allowed. None of the incidents would've been a clear error. We paused the ball out moment and used a ruler on the screen lol, and it definitely looked like a smidge of the ball was still in play. The foul and the offside were inconclusive. WHU had two very similar fouls not given for both Newcastle goals recently in the 2-2. Both times, defenders got clearly pushed in the back directly before the goal. The Isak one on Aguerd was so blatant, but not given.

Hardbto be sympathetic when Arteta has to be the biggest hypocrite going, though! The fuss over these decisions, firstly Liverpool, now Arsenal is crazy, considering all the things that happen to other clubs. During lockdown, we lost to Man U and the ball for the winning goal was WAY out of play. So much so, that it went over the coaches heads! How much furore and outrage was there about that? PGMOL said they didn't have cameras in the correct positions to tell, yet fans managed to draw lines on the stills that show it clear as day. Moyes was livid, but it was instantly forgotten. Arteta is the guy who waves imaginary yellows, is always out of his tech area, drags his injured players back onto the pitch to stop the game etc etc and his team get loads of dodgy decisions go their way. After the Liverpool incident, I'm sure I remember him saying something along the lines of 'Mistakes happen'. Muppet.

 

[edd_jedi]

Well regardless of what happens in the second half, I think this is possibly the most insane 45 minutes of a football match I've ever seen! I don't recall seeing so many disallowed goals and VAR reviews in such a short time. Udoge was very lucky not to be sent off for his two footed challenge. I always think it's harsh when you get a penalty and red card combo, but Romero's tackle was ridiculous. And Chelsea were lucky to finish the half with 11 men after a fight and then elbow in the face.

And if that wasn't enough, Maddison and Van der Ven both off with self inflected injuries

I don't know if my heart can take another 45 mins of that anyway, looks like Spurs run of good luck has come to a dramatic climax!

 

[edd_jedi]

The second half didn't disappoint either! I genuinely think we would have won if Udogie hadn't been sent off too. Even against nine men Chelsea were useless until the 90th minute and we ran out of steam, both Bentacur and Son missed sitters and we could easily have come out of that 2-2 on a different night. A very flattering scoreline for Chelsea, and an amazing performance from Spurs under the circusmtances, no shame in that result except for the two fools who got sent off and cost us what was looking like a very comfotable win after 20 minutes.

 

[edd_jedi]

And surely FIVE disallowed goals has to be a record!?