Palitoy Vinyl Cape Jawa Update

[palitoyjunky]

Gary,i couldnt agree more with what you said.Well done.

Seerdrakon-why do you say the authentication is in question?unless ive missed something.

With regards to a COA,i am absolutely gobsmacked one wasnt issued.This is one of the rarest finds in SW vintage history,and for it to be treated like a normal bog standard moc doesnt sit right with me.I used to have a lot of respect for Tom D a few years back,but not any longer.Dont forget that this was the guy who ok,d the Yak mailers and that itself opened a huge can of worms.This turn of events is very worrying IMO,but im hoping it all ends well.With regards to Tom owning,working for AFA that question has been asked before and never answered...read into that what you will.

Is that figure Archival cases aswell? Not being rude to the customer here,but surely this is one of the larger case with COA items? maybe thats just my prefernce though.

One other thing,and this isnt meant harshly.When people say they remember seeing Palitoy VCJ back in the day,could this be a sign of too much thought.Ive often heard and read about people convincing themselves of something they thought they had seen/heard/happened in the past and this could be a trick of the human brain,which leads them into thinking something they beleive to be true,but it probably isnt.I only know that i got a Palitoy 12 back trooper as my first figure,as my mother saw me buy another for my collection,and recognised the red and blue logo.I wouldnt have rememberd a logo whilst ripping a card open at the young age i was then,and it does sound funny that so many claim they remember the exact figures on the exact back?? Is this myth or reality?? Maybe people are convincing themselves based on the heart,and not reality.

I seriously think that this figure needs to be put under the microscope again.

Don't forget about the sales sample theory!

 

[mr_palitoy]

Gary,i couldnt agree more with what you said.Well done.

Seerdrakon-why do you say the authentication is in question?unless ive missed something.

With regards to a COA,i am absolutely gobsmacked one wasnt issued.This is one of the rarest finds in SW vintage history,and for it to be treated like a normal bog standard moc doesnt sit right with me.I used to have a lot of respect for Tom D a few years back,but not any longer.Dont forget that this was the guy who ok,d the Yak mailers and that itself opened a huge can of worms.This turn of events is very worrying IMO,but im hoping it all ends well.With regards to Tom owning,working for AFA that question has been asked before and never answered...read into that what you will.

Is that figure Archival cases aswell? Not being rude to the customer here,but surely this is one of the larger case with COA items? maybe thats just my prefernce though.

One other thing,and this isnt meant harshly.When people say they remember seeing Palitoy VCJ back in the day,could this be a sign of too much thought.Ive often heard and read about people convincing themselves of something they thought they had seen/heard/happened in the past and this could be a trick of the human brain,which leads them into thinking something they beleive to be true,but it probably isnt.I only know that i got a Palitoy 12 back trooper as my first figure,as my mother saw me buy another for my collection,and recognised the red and blue logo.I wouldnt have rememberd a logo whilst ripping a card open at the young age i was then,and it does sound funny that so many claim they remember the exact figures on the exact back?? Is this myth or reality?? Maybe people are convincing themselves based on the heart,and not reality.

I seriously think that this figure needs to be put under the microscope again.

Don't forget about the sales sample theory!

They were shop sold. People can remember seeing the vinyl ones in the shops briefly before being replaced with the cloth ones. And my opened example has a Zodiac price sticker on it.

Jason

 

[_Lee_]

Jason,

Out of interest,do you have a pic of a cloth caped jawa in that bubble?

Until we see that,the opened bubble/card isnt proof that a VCJ was on that card.Im sorry,but i still think the theory of VCJ bubbles being filled with a cloth cape jawa is a possibilty.My possble theory is this:

Kenner USA start production
Kenner pass tooling specs/pacaging design to foreign distributers
Kenner begin to ship VCJ out in the USA,whilst also passing off foreign packaging(bubbles inc)
Kenner decide to change cape on Jawa,leaving mass overstock of bubbles
Palitoy possibly are informed top production of VCJ very early-change to cloth cape using VCJ bubble,even though some have slipped through(hopefully)

There are many possible scenarios,and i dont see how you can classify a reseal/opened bubbled card as a Palitoy VCJ.The chance for concrete proof went when the card was opened,so in all fairness your estimates are well OTT.

 

[mr_palitoy]

Jason,

Out of interest,do you have a pic of a cloth caped jawa in that bubble?

Until we see that,the opened bubble/card isnt proof that a VCJ was on that card.Im sorry,but i still think the theory of VCJ bubbles being filled with a cloth cape jawa is a possibilty.My possble theory is this:

Kenner USA start production
Kenner pass tooling specs/pacaging design to foreign distributers
Kenner begin to ship VCJ out in the USA,whilst also passing off foreign packaging(bubbles inc)
Kenner decide to change cape on Jawa,leaving mass overstock of bubbles
Palitoy possibly are informed top production of VCJ very early-change to cloth cape using VCJ bubble,even though some have slipped through(hopefully)

There are many possible scenarios,and i dont see how you can classify a reseal/opened bubbled card as a Palitoy VCJ.The chance for concrete proof went when the card was opened,so in all fairness your estimates are well OTT.

There is one posted online somewhere in one of the numerous discussion threads. The cloth cape would have got stuck inside and attached to the vinyl bubble due to the size of the figure with the cloth cape. Hence why we don't see it.

At least 2 of the 4 opened examples have good provenance that they contained vinyl cape jawas. Lee Bullock spoke with the seller of my opened example and was satisfied with the provenance of that one, speak to him about it if you don't believe me.

I think the opposite is true. I would think it is OTT to think that people swapped out cloth cape jawas and inserted real (not fake) vinyl cape jawas into a vinyl bubble opened card, not on one occasion, but 4 occasions in total that we know of. We have 2 sealed examples we know of now, there are bound to be many more opened ones out there.



Jason

 

[sith-smith]

It is a good point about people's memories. I've never fully accepted them as proof that the VC Jawa existed.

I can remember walking past my local toyshop back in the late 70's and being convinced i saw a rebel base for sale. It made sense to me seeing as i already had the death Star Play set. Why wouldn't they release a rebel one?

Turns out that in reality it was the Kenner Death Star. I've had that confirmed in my collecting years since i found out that lots of kenner products were shipped over here to help with stocks in shops!

It is of course possible that these VC jawa memories are simply of a kenner one.

Of course there are collectors who have their original figures and cardbacks. Amongst those figures is a VC Jawa and a 12 back Jawa card. Slightly more interesting evidence but still not proof.

What also interests me is the evidence against this one being legit.

It is still based entirely on the Torres connection or is it because of the evidence ( which I don't think was ever that great ) that Palitoy never released the a VC Jawa?

 

[mr_palitoy]

Broken links to a cloth cape in a vcj bubble posted in the elstree discussion on swfuk in 2012:-

http://www.starwarsforum.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=11326&hilit=elstree&start=30

Can't find these pics any more and I ain't opening mine up to do the test again.

Lee Bullock talks about the provenance of my opened example on rebelscum in 2008:-

http://forum.rebelscum.com/t1023010-2/

cheers Jason

 

[mr_palitoy]

Gathering all the pics I can find of palitoy vinyl cape jawa goodness:-

This is the sealed example when it was first touted by Torres back in the day:-

And here it is graded AFA 75 by Richard Horsley:-

And here are a couple of pics of the other known sealed example from Jason Joiner/Gary Kurtz at Elstree Empire Day in 2012:-

My opened example from 2008. Before restoration:-

After restoration:-

Vectis auction from Jan 2012:-

http://www.vectis.co.uk/Page/ViewLot.aspx?LotId=437657&Section=249

Bonhams auction from June 2007:-

http://www.bonhams.com/auctions/15239/lot/472/

*edit- resized that insanely huge picture for you Jason as it was throwing off the forum layout*



cheers Jason

 

[Palifan]

It's a real shame that this debate is still going on after a VCJ has been graded and I'm not sure a COA will be issued now as it wasn't written up at the time of grading. I still firmly believe these things existed and I think all the pictures Jason has just supplied proves it (well for me anyway).

I've been thinking back to when I received mine as a child back in 78/79 and all I remember is it being the last of the 12 backs that I needed to complete the set. This was a really tricky figure to find and my mother ended up finding it somehow. This was before any 20 backs had been issued in the Uk ( In Bristol at least) and I think it was early 79 as I remember having my cardboard Death Star when I received it which I was given for Christmas of 78. I did use to keep my card backs but sadly they all went a long time ago so I can't check to see if the Palitoy logo was on there.

It would be great to hear if anyone else had a VC Jawa bought for them as a child in the 70's just to see how many of us received one and maybe to try and pinpoint a date it came out. As all the Palitoy 12 back Jawa card backs out there are B backs I don't see that it's not possible that Kenner sent over some VCJ's and appropriate bubbles to seal onto the Palitoy cards before the switch to the cloth capes. Maybe if they were holding back sending Jawas out because of the change over in the US people kept asking for it so they needed to send something. I don't remember seeing a cloth cape Jawa for a very long time after I've received my VC so there must have been a fairly long time before the switch.

I'm not sure if any of this is really helping with the debate but I think it would be good to put together whatever information people have from back in the day to see what comes up. I'd love to see any card backs people have kept from the 70's which had VC Jawas on them. I know it won't really prove anything but it would still be interesting.

One last thing I noticed about Jason's photo's is that all those VC card backs have the hanging hole in the same place. I've seen on Google images that there are cloth cape examples out there with a similar placement of this hole but I wonder if these were just the first ones carded? It's hard to know about that but don't forget there's a third bubble size for these Palitoy 12 backs with yellow card placed behind the Jawa, when were these ones released? I'm guessing before the slanted bubble as I don't think I've seen a sealed one and only know about it due to one of my reseals ( I know they're out there as I've been told but I never see that type come up for sale).

It's the thread that really does keep giving!

Ian

 

[mr_palitoy]

One last thing I noticed about Jason's photo's is that all those VC card backs have the hanging hole in the same place. I've seen on Google images that there are cloth cape examples out there with a similar placement of this hole but I wonder if these were just the first ones carded? It's hard to know about that but don't forget there's a third bubble size for these Palitoy 12 backs with yellow card placed behind the Jawa, when were these ones released? I'm guessing before the slanted bubble as I don't think I've seen a sealed one and only know about it due to one of my reseals ( I know they're out there as I've been told but I never see that type come up for sale).

Ian

About half of the cloth capes on google images have the same placement, with the left of the hole aligning with the left side of the S in Star Wars, but then there are cloth capes
where the hole is further left:-

My theory here is that they started with hole placement so that the cards hung correctly for vinyl cape and vinyl bubble, and then noticed that they didn't hang correctly when
they moved to cloth cape and cloth bubble so they moved the hole further left.

Have never seen this third bubble type with card behind the jawa. The vinyl cape has a layer of clear plastic behind the card. Please provide examples if you can.

Also found this while looking over all the images on google:-

http://www.vectis.co.uk/Page/ViewLot.aspx?LotId=207766&Section=2865

This is a vectis auction from 2003:-

The image is a bit small, but that does look like a cloth cape sealed inside a vinyl cape bubble. The top of the cloth cape is all squished down and the edge of the bubble
has no upwards slant at the top as far as I can see, but it is hard to tell. That would lead some evidence towards them using up all of the left over vinyl cape bubbles
with cloth cape jawas figures after they ran out of vinyl cape figures.

This really is the thread that keeps on giving!



Jason

 

[_Lee_]

great pics Jason.This is a great thread.

 

[Grant_C]

The Jason Joiner VC Jawa was collected from a photographer.

That was Jason's story.

Some guy who's job it was to take pictures of toys.

 

[Frunkstar]

Right I hope I am not pissing in the wind with this suggestion & also not annoying anyone with going on about UKG vs AFA, but my thinking -

If a COA is not issued from AFA (which would be a sham) & IMO prove just how incompetent they are BTW, would it not be a good idea to ask Steve @ UKG if he would be willing to look at it along with Jim.S & possibly some other UK collectors like Lee & Gary & have a COA made up by them to go along with the AFA grading?, as this would IMO -

A - save having to re send the piece to the states & prevent any possible damage in transit
B - make the conformation of its authenticity even stronger having had both of the most respected grading companies having looked at it & agreed upon its authenticity?

 

[RKW1138]

Just to be clear but the image below is of the other bubble type. It has the same height as a VC bubble but is much wider as the plastic reaches to both sides of the silver border.
I would imagine this bubble to be the stepping stone between VC bubble and final cloth cape bubble.

 

[mr_palitoy]

Yes, looking at it's obvious that the 2003 vectis auction has a wider vinyl cape bubble. That knocks the theory that
cloth cape jawas could have been placed in the original thinner vinyl cape bubbles.

So this is my theory of how palitoy jawas evolved from vinyl cape to cloth cape over time.

There is no known 12A cardback example for jawa:-

http://www.freewebs.com/mrpalitoy/sw12acardback.htm

There have only been 12B cardback examples for jawa:-

http://www.freewebs.com/mrpalitoy/sw12bcardback.htm

The first cards released used vinyl cape figures and vinyl cape bubbles:-

There is a yellow cardboard footer underneath the figure. And there is a clear plastic insert behind the figure. Note the tab hole starts just above the left side of the S in Star Wars.

They ran out of vinyl cape figures and then used wider vinyl cape bubbles with cloth cape figures:-

There is a yellow cardboard footer underneath the figure and also one behind the figure that ends at shoulder height on the figure. Note the tab hole placement is unchanged.

They then ran out of or stopped using these wider vinyl bubbles (as the hood of the cloth cape looks squashed) and started using cloth cape bubbles with cloth cape figures:-

The hood on the cape is not squashed now. There is a yellow cardboard footer underneath the figure but no insert behind the figure now. Note the tab hole placement is unchanged.

They then realised that the card did not hang correctly any more and moved the tab hole to the left a bit:-

How's that for a slice of fried gold?



Jason

 

[mr_palitoy]

I've tracked down the missing pictures of a cloth cape jawa inserted into a vinyl cape bubble that has the top of the bubble cut off:-

Looks far too squashed to be put onto the card without trapping the cloth cape under the bubble.



Jason

 

[RKW1138]

How many known examples are there of cloth capped jawas in sealed VC bubbles?

 

[Drakon]

You have a known forger that has created other Palitoy pieces that were near perfect till they were discovered to be fake. The VC Jawa was passed/sold by him. Why would you not have some doubt about the piece? I am not the only member that feels this way.
I did not start the watch threads about this asshole but I did take into account what was said about him. Keep in mind that this piece was offered to other members and they turned it down.

I for one want to believe that this is real. It would be awesome vintage history for this piece to be real. I also applaud Richard for sending the VC Jawa to AFA. They have the experience to grade this piece. Why would they not? Tough question being a UK forum.
I am not sure why a COA is needed though. AFA has a QC program in place to catch mistakes and such. Yes...I do agree at times bad pieces get thru but that happens with all companies. To say it doesn't
would be wrong.

 

[mr_palitoy]

How many known examples are there of cloth capped jawas in sealed VC bubbles?

None.

Jason

 

[Palifan]

I did get slightly worried about your previous post Jason, with a cloth caped Jawa in a VC style bubble. It's good to see that it's the bubble I mentioned and you can also see the cardboard yellow insert behind the Jawa, phew!

I know the Kenner ones also had a version with a clear plastic tray behind the Jawa but I suspect we won't see a Palitoy version on a 12 back card.

I like the sound of the theory that the hanger hole was moved so the Jawa would hang correctly and feel this makes perfect sense and makes even more of an argument for the VC Jawas. I can see that without some sort of COA this debate will probably continue but I'm not sure I'd be happy sending this piece off again if it was me. I'm not sure what Richards thoughts are on this as he now has the item graded and if he's happy with it as it is then this whole thing might not be such a big deal to him. That said though I do wish him all the best with regards to getting some more info from the AFA and I know he would make a lot of people happy if he should decide to let someone else take a look at it. Maybe a plan would be to take it to one of the UK events where the experts will be? At least you'd know what was happening to it in transit.

I'm still looking forward to hearing some more here and I'm sure this whole topic is far from over.

By the way, does anyone know what's being said on the other forums about this?

 

[mr_palitoy]

I did get slightly worried about your previous post Jason, with a cloth caped Jawa in a VC style bubble. It's good to see that it's the bubble I mentioned and you can also see the cardboard yellow insert behind the Jawa, phew!

I know the Kenner ones also had a version with a clear plastic tray behind the Jawa but I suspect we won't see a Palitoy version on a 12 back card.

By the way, does anyone know what's being said on the other forums about this?

The palitoy vinyl cape jawa card also has the clear plastic tray behind it. This is mine before I reassembled it.

You can see from the paper tear that mine was placed at an angle rather than straight on.

I can't see the cardboard yellow insert behind the jawa that you mention, just the ones used as the footplate below the feet of the figure. Where exactly do you see it?

cheers Jason