Response to Claims

[theforceuk]

Should of just left him to it frank, people are more bothered about poor old Jeff and how he was exposed than the facts, truth is for the most part I don't think people even give a **** (I know some do you know who you are) which is the sadest thing about this, I tell you what collectors 10 years ago wouldn't of stood for all this.......but it's ok Jeffs giving out refunds so all is one with the world.....yeah right, the guy told lie after lie got exposed time and time again selling baggies he knew where fake....we are talking about tens of thousands of pounds here and hundreds of fake baggies that all share a lot the same traits in the fonts, seals and baggie material

Frank mate I have to take my hat of to you because you exposed someone who has been selling fake stuff for years and if not for your actions would still be doing so to this day....... a lot of people have had money back and that is down to your efforts frank and I salute you for it fella :wink: I think you faced an uphill struggle as you were always going to come up against nay Sayers and people who would rather bury there heads in the sand as for some ignorance is bliss.....

Well said, saved me the hassle, I'm 100% behind Frank on this, even though I have never owned a baggie or have ever met this Jeff chap.

One thing I do no, he is completely full of **** and more ****. :?

 

[ScruffyLookingNH]

Don't think anyone is arguing that refunds are bad Simon, I was just answering Grant's question 'why refund if he was out to defraud'....

Not having a go at you, or indeed anyone, in particular, mate. Just saying refunds are positive and some small victory. And I agree: refunds in no way make the seller automatically innocent or actually prove anything one way or the other.

 

[lejackal]

refunds being issued yet won't refund the person responsible for bringing an end to the fraud - that speaks volumes, if it were an honest mistake (several dozen times over) then surely you'd be looking to work with the person that was your go to guy for many years??

 

[momike]

What stands out to me the most is that Jeff offered refunds pretty much straight away when all this came to light for the sw-a, sw-b, sw-d, Meccano and the dodgy Kenner logo baggies, I have to question why he did not send those to be looked at by ukg before offering refunds as that's what I would of done and imagine most of you guys would of done the same in that you would of sought out a second opinion, the fact he offered those refunds pretty much immediately leads me to no other conclusion than that he was well aware those baggies were moody

 

[Frunkstar]

refunds being issued yet won't refund the person responsible for bringing an end to the fraud - that speaks volumes, if it were an honest mistake (several dozen times over) then surely you'd be looking to work with the person that was your go to guy for many years??

I actually got a refund for the baggies I returned, plus some interesting emails from Jeff, so yes I got a full refund, now shall we break it down?

1. I got a refund to (IMO) calm the storm - ain't happening & I was not about to start shouting I got it from the highest peek & start praising the guy for it considering the losses in question not to mention 100's of hours of my time trying to get the evidence in question to bring this sad sage to light.

2. Did I get my investment back? - No some baggies were bought a few years back at market value then VS market value now = 100's if not thousands lost

3. More to point 2 really, I got a refund yes & I lost money big time on market value now, but does it end there? - No here are 2 prime examples -

3A - I had a popy DSD - I now have a popy box & booklets minus the baggie - I did not even bother returning this one I opened it to put with my loose run - total loss

3B - I had a full run of all 6 SW-a baggie for the ESB display mock up stand, now to put this in context there maybe 3 to 6 known examples of each of 5 of those 6 figures in the world, most likely less than 3 of each, it took me about 6 years & thousands to put the set together (only full set in the world), now with the fake SW-a lando the set is incomplete & in tatters, so I hear you think well it's just a baggie he got from Jeff & he got a full refund for what he paid, wrong, I had an example already & had hoped this was an upgrade, so I let the other one go to an avid baggie collector, so this being fake as said about ruined the set.

Has everyone being given a refund?? - that we will most likely never know same as we will never know the amount of baggies (or all the types of baggies) in question due to this FACT - no one wants to come forward & say what needs to be said, in fact I would say 90 to 95% of those involved have simply slopped off to Jeff directly via email to get a refund rather than actually coming forward & stating I bough X & Y which cost me X in 19?? 20?? & these are photos of what I had & am returning for the record, my bill was tiny compared to many others I know of at 1800ish, am I happy I got my refund - in a way yes,in a way no,as had I just opened all the fakes & had them loose graded at today's current market value I would most likely be better off, do I care if I got a refund or not - quite frankly not in the bloody slightest, as the money is not what this is about is it??, well not for me at least.

 

[Frunkstar]

What stands out to me the most is that Jeff offered refunds pretty much straight away when all this came to light for the sw-a, sw-b, sw-d, Meccano and the dodgy Kenner logo baggies, I have to question why he did not send those to be looked at by ukg before offering refunds as that's what I would of done and imagine most of you guys would of done the same in that you would of sought out a second opinion, the fact he offered those refunds pretty much immediately leads me to no other conclusion than that he was well aware those baggies were moody

A VERY valid point Mike, to me offering instant refund & with a finite short time period to qualify for the refund speaks volumes to me & this is my reasoning -

Why as others have stated even offer a refund if out to scam?? - simple answer in my book, these baggies we know about (or did when this started) are the tip of the iceberg, - offer refunds quick sharp before they discover the 100's if not 1000's of palitoy-k's I sold are also fake, - damage limitation plain & simple as I see it, had we not pushed further to see what else is affected by these issues the bill would be minimal, we now have a pretty extensive list off affected baggies SW-a/b/d / ESB-a / Palitoy-k /POTF Palitoy-i's - just how much more have we missed???, just how deep does the deception go?? & the biggie - is it just individual baggies that have been tampered with/faked??

 

[Frunkstar]

Fail report just back from UKG confirming every baggie I returned to Jeff is 100% fake, it's in a PDF format so not sure how to upload it as is, this is copied & pasted -

UkGraders Limited
3 Hamilton Road
Sutton in Ashfield
Notts
NG17 5LD
England

[email protected]

Dear Frank.

Please see below the report for the failed baggies that you sent in for confirmation that all have issues either relating to seal type or the text is stencilled onto the bags.

X3 Boba Fetts ESB-F/ESB-D/ROTJ-A Seal Types are not correct on all 3
X1 Lando Calrissian SW-A Baggie Stencilled/Hand Painted White.
X1 Rebo Band Incorrect Bags and Stencilled Text
X1 Luke X-Wing Fake Baggie.
X1 Leia Boushh Seal and Text Stencilled
X1 Hoth Stormtrooper incorrect seal and stencilled text.
X1 Imperial Commander incorrect seal type.
X1 Death Star Droid incorrect seal and stencilled text.
X1 Stormtrooper incorrect seal and stencilled text.
X1 Leia Organa incorrect seal and stencilled text also figure is play worn.
X1 8D8 Fake baggie.
X1 Rebel Commando Fake Baggie.

Please feel free to contact me on the above email to clarify any of the above.
Yours Sincerely,
Stephen Ward,
Director of UK Graders Limited

I screenshotted the PDF doc for clarity, I also have some info I would like to share from the latest emails I got back from Jeff when we were dealing with the refund, I'll add the screenshots shortly

 

[Frunkstar]

 

[Palifan]

Well that confirms everything you stated Frank, let's see Jeff try to defend this!

Ian

 

[sparkysx]

I inadvertently met Jeff at farthest from, didn't know it was him until my friend told me on the way home, everyone was totally confused as to what the F he was doing there!

 

[Richard_H]

Well, that's case closed that the baggies are fake IMO.

I also think it was right that Jeff went to FF. He needs to answer questions, sort out refunds.... no good going into hiding like TT.

 

[Lindo]

I'm sure jeff doesn't give a **** tbh, the confirmation from UKG that they are fake will have little consequence and pretty meaningless as frank had already confirmed they were, people know they are fake because it has been quite public anyway but that does not stop him doing events and people are still buying from him so why should he care, doesn't appear that his reputation is suffering much at all does it

 

[Richard_H]

If I was owed £10k I'd want him doing events to sell everything he could to get my money back quickest.

 

[Michael Sith]

Glad that the report is back and just confirms what Frank has put forward all along.

In regard to the selling of Mocs etc ( that have probably been purchased with ill gotten gains, which raises its own ethical questions) this is only part of the issue highlighted throughout this thread.

As Frank, and others have raised, it's not just about the money, and to boil it down to that, undermines the severity of the damage done to the hobby, the number of fakes that are out there in circulation and all of the other damaging effects of this affair.

 

[Frunkstar]

If I was owed £10k I'd want him doing events to sell everything he could to get my money back quickest.

Yeah "ideal world scenario" but are folks getting back those takings he made at FF???, I know one guy who's owed a further several K (already been paid back some) yet when I told him Jeff took a huge profit at FF he asked again & from what I understand has still not seen another penny, so it begs the question - what exactly is happening with the monies taken at the event??

I did raise my concerns about being allowed to stand @ FF & my suggestion was that if he is allowed a stand then ideally the funds taken should be held by the event organizers to make SURE the taking are actually going to those owed.

 

[Frunkstar]

Glad that the report is back and just confirms what Frank has put forward all along.

1. ( that have probably been purchased with ill gotten gains, which raises its own ethical questions) - Bingo!

2. this is only part of the issue highlighted throughout this thread. - Bingo!

3. it's not just about the money - for me it's NEVER been about the money

4. and to boil it down to that, undermines the severity of the damage done to the hobby - the most important point right there

For me it's the wanton destruction of the hobby, specifically my focus field within the hobby, I worked hard for many years to re-instill a little faith & confidence in non kennner issued baggies after the Billy Boy tragedy, for me it's all about ensuring the future of the hobby I love, I've never been concerned about getting my money back & even though I did, I am still looking at an ENORMOUS deffest not to mention gaps in my collection runs I may now never ever have the chance to complete again.

 

[Richard_H]

Yes of course I'm referring to an ideal situation. I wasn't at FF so can't comment on his reception there but if he's driven away before all the refunds have been received then that is to the benefit of nobody.

 

[robpmarsh]

I didn't see any confrontations on the Sunday regarding baggies. Jeff was selling off some MOCs at decent prices (I even bought one). Seemed like a nice guy to talk to but I've not had any dealings with him to the extent of Frank and others.

 

[sparkysx]

The mocs and loose were decent prices. The chap on the stall to the left of him bought all of his luke farmboys for peanuts and said he was going to flip them on echo.

 

[Frunkstar]

Here's a couple of excerpts from the emails I was on about going on about the legal rout. - yeah ok then :lol

& my reply

 

[_Lee_]

Well done Frank seems that some people owe you an apology, but some may not be man enough to admit it.

Im hoping that these baggies are the real deal, waddya say :lol:

 

[Michael Sith]

Yes Frank, I know you knew the truth all along but as Lee says, EVERYBODY should now be thankful for what you've done bud

By the way Lee I think they are TT's :?

 

[Richard_H]

By the way Lee I think they are TT's :?

Nope. Tetleys

 

[momike]

I wonder if Jeff will be coming back on with a full report of ukgs findings regarding his baggies and if he will destroy the fakes as he stated he would?

 

[Frunkstar]

Well done Frank seems that some people owe you an apology, but some may not be man enough to admit it.

Thanks Lee & you hit the nail right on the head with that statement buddy, everyone was very quick to jump to Jeff's defense & also openly defend him at FF, to the point of intimidating anyone considering asking for a refund which I think is appalling TBH, yet there it is, proof his **** is indeed **** & also prof he has been talking out of his ass "I did seek legal advice" - yeh ok then, so a faker & a liar & IMO most likely either the maker or instigator of having the fakes made, yet now the proof is there in black & white where is everyone - does nobody really give a flying **** anymore??, no we don't have any hard evidence of him making them, but if he did not, then why not put forward exactly where they did come from.

I thought it was also appalling how half the community were willing crucify me / the investigation team over this without a shred of evidence put forward by the scammer, not then - not now, had nobody else noticed we are still waiting for 1 piece of actually proof / evidence to clear Jeff from actually having these made?? - wake up & smell the coffee - there is none, none whatsoever! sure as **** if I were being accused of making fakes i would have been putting evidence forward of where I got all my stock from in the form of payment details.

Many of you happy to still buy alternative stock in the form of MOC's & Loose from him - really??? you are happy to line the pockets of someone who's literally been stealing from us & deceiving the community as a whole - shame on you!

Just so you all understand the why behind the way I initially started the fakes thread off & took so much flack about - I have dealt with scammers & con men before, the way to draw them out is to make them think they have a strong case to defend themselves due to lack of or circumstantial evidence, this is why there was only minimal evidence put forward on the OP, but the reactions here & more so the pod cast soon put pay to that idea, oh yeah he seems like a nice guy right??, yes he struck me as the same, does that make a person innocent of fakery / fraud & the ability to deceive?? - you think a con man or confidence trickster would bring in the money if they were ***** to you??

Yes it's close knit community in SW collecting circles & we a like to think the best of one-another, it's not like I made some kind of knee jerk reaction over this situation, I had been monitoring the situation for over 2 years after seeing several things being sold sometimes over & over again (multiples of rare items etc) that just did not make any sense before I even considered there may be foul play involved.

 

[Frunkstar]

I wonder if Jeff will be coming back on with a full report of ukgs findings regarding his baggies and if he will destroy the fakes as he stated he would?

I think we have 2 hopes & Bob's dead!

as the the other point - UKG have confirmed any they find to be fake will be opened & not returned which at least is a small victory.

 

[ScruffyLookingNH]

Well done Frank seems that some people owe you an apology, but some may not be man enough to admit it.

Thanks Lee & you hit the nail right on the head with that statement buddy, everyone was very quick to jump to Jeff's defense & also openly defend him at FF, to the point of intimidating anyone considering asking for a refund which I think is appalling TBH, yet there it is, proof his **** is indeed **** & also prof he has been talking out of his ass "I did seek legal advice" - yeh ok then, so a faker & a liar & IMO most likely either the maker or instigator of having the fakes made, yet now the proof is there in black & white where is everyone - does nobody really give a flying **** anymore??, no we don't have any hard evidence of him making them, but if he did not, then why not put forward exactly where they did come from.

I thought it was also appalling how half the community were willing crucify me / the investigation team over this without a shred of evidence put forward by the scammer, not then - not now, had nobody else noticed we are still waiting for 1 piece of actually proof / evidence to clear Jeff from actually having these made?? - wake up & smell the coffee - there is none, none whatsoever! sure as **** if I were being accused of making fakes i would have been putting evidence forward of where I got all my stock from in the form of payment details.

Many of you happy to still buy alternative stock in the form of MOC's & Loose from him - really??? you are happy to line the pockets of someone who's literally been stealing from us & deceiving the community as a whole - shame on you!

Just so you all understand the why behind the way I initially started the fakes thread off & took so much flack about - I have dealt with scammers & con men before, the way to draw them out is to make them think they have a strong case to defend themselves due to lack of or circumstantial evidence, this is why there was only minimal evidence put forward on the OP, but the reactions here & more so the pod cast soon put pay to that idea, oh yeah he seems like a nice guy right??, yes he struck me as the same, does that make a person innocent of fakery / fraud & the ability to deceive?? - you think a con man or confidence trickster would bring in the money if they were ***** to you??

Yes it's close knit community in SW collecting circles & we a like to think the best of one-another, it's not like I made some kind of knee jerk reaction over this situation, I had been monitoring the situation for over 2 years after seeing several things being sold sometimes over & over again (multiples of rare items etc) that just did not make any sense before I even considered there may be foul play involved.

Couple of things, Frank. When were these undisclosed people intimidating anyone thinking of asking for a refund? I was there and saw no evidence of that whatsoever. As you weren't there I assume you have some testimony from someone who was? If so I would love to hear it because that is somewhat alarming if true. [*EDIT*: someone's been in touch about this and explained what happened. I agree, this wasn't a good thing at all]

Secondly, I bought something from Jeff last FF. Shame on me? Really? I've bought from TT, too. OK, so I won't say it gave me a enormous sense of well being in either case, but there was a sense of small comfort, in the buying from Jeff, that at least my money was only going to end up in the pocket of someone returning a fake baggie. I guess shame on me for buying from Vectis, too, seeing as they appear (unknowingly it has to be said) sold at least one fake item in one of their recent sales (not the VCJ). And shame on me for buying from Sainsbury's and Tescos because they tricked me in some of their 3 for 2 deals when I would have been better off buying three at the normal full price. Stick to the facts of the matter, Frank, do not start preaching about morals.

I have supported you and your work on this from the first time I heard about it. The hours and knowledge you and the rest have put in is laudable, to say the least. Wasn't a fan of how it was released but there we go, that's been done to death. I didn't criticise it at the time because the criticism was in danger of drowning out what the real issue was: the fakes. However, what I can't stay quiet about any longer, let alone support, is this campaign you now seem to be engaged in of having a go at anyone who wasn't willing to lynch Jeff on sight at the last FF. There are some here that have let their emotions get in the way of seeing the evidence in your findings and have defended the indefensible, true, but you have also let your emotions get the better from you and are beginning to come across as bitter, to say the very least.

Don't let this remarkable piece of detective work be remembered for the divisions this seems to have brought into relief but rather for the lessons that can be learnt by the whole community: Caveat emptor and if it can be faked, it will.

 

[Lindo]

Oi scruffy I see your point but lay off Tesco's mate they pay my bills and it's not a con honest

Seriously though Frank you need to chill mate, seems like people don't really care about it on the scale that you do, so having a pop at people won't help and surely UKG can't refuse to send something back to someone even if it is fake

 

[Richard_H]

Couple of things, Frank. When were these undisclosed people intimidating anyone thinking of asking for a refund? I was there and saw no evidence of that whatsoever. As you weren't there I assume you have some testimony from someone who was? If so I would love to hear it because that is somewhat alarming if true. [*EDIT*: someone's been in touch about this and explained what happened. I agree, this wasn't a good thing at all]

I wasn't at FF but would be very alarmed if this was true.

 

[Michael Sith]

:shock:

Well, for me, three responses, non of which are supportive, one that says " chill out, people don't seem to be as bothered as you" !

Let's not forget, it's not whether or not you collect baggies, or have been bitten by this, it's about the deceit, dishonesty, and damage to the hobby caused.

Frank, I've said it before and I will say it again, THANKYOU for what you have done for the hobby.

Now I'm not attritional in character, or someone that spoils for an argument, and try to be decent in all I do. Some people may not like me, that's their choice. But I detest dishonesty, and devious manipulation, and the hobby I love is a little oasis for me, and anyone that does anything to protect and defend it, is applauded by me for one, again THANKYOU. Frank.