Response to Claims

[Frunkstar]

5 hour drive each way for me if I went to visit Jeff in person, the thought has crossed my mind several times but I always come to the same conclusion as has been suggested above - what if he's not in or won't see me, what if he refuses me the refund??now I am a lot more levelheaded than I used to be & don't get angry that easily any more, but I can see it all ending up as a mess if I have to get confrontational which is not what I want, all I want is my money back as well as everyone else to get their money back & more importantly for ALL of the fakes to be taken out of circulation & destroyed (opened) to prevent further contamination & destruction of the hobby.

Come on Jeff just do the right thing by EVERYONE!

Did Marty get the remainder of the refund he is owed on the 2 tri logo fett's with paint touch ups for instance??

You may well be in the middle of a divorce & it's not the best of times for you, but on retrospect had you been sure of what you are selling is authentic you would not have any headaches to deal with on this front, we all have "real life" problems going on we have deal with.

 

[Frunkstar]

I really hope that those who need a refund get refunded, after that we can all move on and leave this horrible episode behind us.
Our collecting world doesn't need this.

agreed, too much of this stuff going on when I can't buy a baggie without thinking 'should I get Frank to look at this first?'

I don't mind, always happy to help if I can :wink:

 

[Frunkstar]

I am removing this post & replacing it with this -

I got a reply & fingers crossed I will also be getting my refund in due course,so fingers crossed for everyone including me.

 

[momike]

He must of heard you Frank :lol:

 

[PulsarP]

That is good to hear!

 

[Michael Sith]

Some positive news at last.

 

[Frunkstar]

Just in case everyone thought this had all died down & is forgotten, it is far from so, I am fully aware of the total bull **** spouted by Jeff at the FF event & also aware of those happy to have defended him as an innocent party at said event.

I am also aware Jeff was telling everyone that many of the baggies I sent back to UKG for return to Jeff were not fake & actually 100% authentic - thats total BS - just so you know - I deal with FACTS & hard evidence not hearsay, I have paid for a full grade failure report to be done on each & every baggie I returned for a refund(at a significant loss at current market value may I add), I have also just been in contact with the guy Jeff has been pointing the finger of blame at (Rob Gratson) yes Rob has had a bit of a chequered history, but I firmly believe that Jeff is using that to his full advantage as a smoke screen, a smokescreen many seem happy to accept & protest Jeff's innocence in the fake baggies scam/scandal.

I will not reveal the full fail report details from UKG till I actually have it in hand in black & white, nor will I reveal what conformation I have back from Rob Gratson till I am happy I have all the FACT's at hand, suffice to say many folks seem to be rather deluded about the situation & just how deep the deception goes.

I know one persons fake returns bill is a staggering 10K GBP & they have only had a refund for less than a 3'rd of that sum to date, so much for "whats all this big fuss over 20 to 30 baggies" - & thats only 1 single person in question, I can reveal many many more totaling many many thousands of pounds.

I am calling you out Jeff - you are so full of **** I can smell it all the way up where I live.

Suffice to say there will be even more FIRM evidence coming to this thread very shortly & yes I do expect you to cover the grade fail report costs in FULL considering you were strutting round the FF event like a prize stuffed turkey lying through your teeth to all & sundry stating many of the baggies I returned to UKG passed grading & are not fake as I stated they were/are, shame on those of you that are seemingly falling for his BS - I won't name names, you know who you are.

Bring on a 2nd podcast -please the first was a total farce & IMO a Kangaroo court, you think everyone who can talk the talk can also walk the walk.

I know I am not loved by all as I speak my mind & stand up for what I think is right for the hobby - well wake up & smell the coffee folks - the hobby is rife with fakes & scammers, those who do not stand up for their rights only propagate the deception & liquidation of this hobby I love & I for one say **** that - if you hate me for speaking my mind - well hey I am good with that -move along, no sweat of my brow.

 

[Grant_C]

Always welcome to come on the podcast Frank

 

[Grant_C]

I don't understand why you never came to FF to confront him personally in December or April?

 

[_Lee_]

I don't understand why you never came to FF to confront him personally in December or April?

Grant,

What was said by Jeff at FF? If it is relevant then shouldnt it be posted here??

 

[Grant_C]

I have no idea, I barely spoke to him.

He was selling a ton of MOCs to pay for refunds. I found this very confusing as he didn't have to do anything if his goal was to get money through fraud. Kind of defeats the point.

 

[_Lee_]

I have no idea, I barely spoke to him.

He was selling a ton of MOCs to pay for refunds. I found this very confusing as he didn't have to do anything if his goal was to get money through fraud. Kind of defeats the point.

Maybe he is panicking? I dont know why though as the Police etc wouldnt care , as per the Toni affair - even though it is Fraud.

This hobby is real sad at the minutr

 

[edd_jedi]

He was selling a ton of MOCs to pay for refunds. I found this very confusing as he didn't have to do anything if his goal was to get money through fraud. Kind of defeats the point.

I'll retract this if I'm wrong, but based on what Jeff has said previously he is going through a divorce. Under those circumstances (as has happened to other people in the hobby) the entire collection would need to be sold and money divided. So although that is an awful thing to have to do, I don't think it's accurate to say he was only there selling to pay for baggie refunds.

The reason this thread has gone quiet is because there's no point discussing it any further until all the baggies that were returned as suspect fakes have been graded. It's the ones that have been returned that are important, not the ones he had left.

 

[Grant_C]

That's a fair point Edd.

But say that all the MOCs are being sold for a divorce. My question is still- why refund?

I doubt the police are interested in types of 30 year plastic bags in light of the TT mass fraud not able to gain any traction.

If the goal is normally to defraud and take the money, does it not defeat the object of the fraud to give the money back. If he keeps the £1000's and states that they were all sold as seen and well past the return date. What could anyone do?

Just be good to have an answer to why a refund is being offered when most other successful scams did nothing.

 

[newswseller]

Just be good to have an answer to why a refund is being offered when most other successful scams did nothing.

Because in reality only a very small amount of his fakes have been returned for refunds.. Think about how many have been churned out over the years, via ebay and toy fairs etc, and how many of those have been passed on to other unsuspecting buyers, who know nothing about this scam.. or even those that have been scammed and think it's only one £30 baggie, i can't be arsed with the hassle of returning it..

There's still collectors out there with toy toni's sitting in their collection, who know nothing about the whole TT saga.

Meanwhile Jeff is driving around in his Lambo..

 

[Grant_C]

The small amount of fakes still are in the £1000's.

Why bother refunding any of it?

I'm glad he is of course- but it kind of defeats the idea of defrauding in the first place if the money is returned. :?

 

[spoons]

The small amount of fakes still are in the £1000's.

Why bother refunding any of it?

I'm glad he is of course- but it kind of defeats the idea of defrauding in the first place if the money is returned. :?

Reputation means a lot and Jeff may feel that any refunds are a step towards repairing his. Without repairing his rep, Jeff will struggle to sell baggies in the future which I'm guessing has been a decent source of income for some time judging by the size of the refunds.

I certianly don't see the fact he's made some refunds as evidence that Jeff was duped.

 

[momike]

Should of just left him to it frank, people are more bothered about poor old Jeff and how he was exposed than the facts, truth is for the most part I don't think people even give a **** (I know some do you know who you are) which is the sadest thing about this, I tell you what collectors 10 years ago wouldn't of stood for all this.......but it's ok Jeffs giving out refunds so all is one with the world.....yeah right, the guy told lie after lie got exposed time and time again selling baggies he knew where fake....we are talking about tens of thousands of pounds here and hundreds of fake baggies that all share a lot the same traits in the fonts, seals and baggie material

Frank mate I have to take my hat of to you because you exposed someone who has been selling fake stuff for years and if not for your actions would still be doing so to this day....... a lot of people have had money back and that is down to your efforts frank and I salute you for it fella :wink: I think you faced an uphill struggle as you were always going to come up against nay Sayers and people who would rather bury there heads in the sand as for some ignorance is bliss.....

 

[Frunkstar]

Always welcome to come on the podcast Frank

I have never listened to a PC (any PC) & have no interest in ever being interviewed for one, it's not my thing

 

[Frunkstar]

I don't understand why you never came to FF to confront him personally in December or April?

600+ mile round trip for me, wanted to go to one for years, remember I even tried to ask about car sharing, but I have no interest in attending one in future, Jeff being allowed a stall was IMPO an error in judgement, as for why I would not like to come to confront him in person is pretty obvious really if you think about it, I would be banned from the event no doubt & would not have anything nice to say which I already would not be well received with the crowd there, no point me going just to upset the apple cart is there.

 

[Frunkstar]

I don't understand why you never came to FF to confront him personally in December or April?

Grant,

What was said by Jeff at FF? If it is relevant then shouldnt it be posted here??

He was making claims that many of the baggies I returned to him (Via UKG) were not fake & that UKG had in fact passed them as authentic - yeah ok :lol: :lol:

 

[Richard_H]

Frank - can you confirm that when UKG publish their findings, however it gets done, this is an independent opinion? i.e. that they did not come to you and ask for your opinion on the baggies. How would you rate UKG's authority on baggies in general? I am very interested to see what UKG say about these.

 

[Frunkstar]

I have had no part in the authentication (or lack of it) in any way with regards to the baggies that have been returned to UKG, Jeff was quite specific about me not being allowed access to his stuff in terms of authenticating them or even seeing them for that matter, so any decision on these will be down to UKG not myself.

IMO UKG are pretty good on baggie identification, the exception to the rule I'd say would be those palitoy-k "style" ones that all traced back to Jeff directly, that particular baggie had everyone fooled for a long time, but they have been confirmed fake 100% now

FYI Jeff has now stared requesting further returns (by others) be sent to UKG for appraisal rather than to him directly as before.

When I get my grail fail report from the graders I will make it public here as I have nothing to hide.

 

[Frunkstar]

Should of just left him to it frank, people are more bothered about poor old Jeff and how he was exposed than the facts, truth is for the most part I don't think people even give a **** (I know some do you know who you are) which is the sadest thing about this, I tell you what collectors 10 years ago wouldn't of stood for all this.......but it's ok Jeffs giving out refunds so all is one with the world.....yeah right, the guy told lie after lie got exposed time and time again selling baggies he knew where fake....we are talking about tens of thousands of pounds here and hundreds of fake baggies that all share a lot the same traits in the fonts, seals and baggie material

Frank mate I have to take my hat of to you because you exposed someone who has been selling fake stuff for years and if not for your actions would still be doing so to this day....... a lot of people have had money back and that is down to your efforts frank and I salute you for it fella :wink: I think you faced an uphill struggle as you were always going to come up against nay Sayers and people who would rather bury there heads in the sand as for some ignorance is bliss.....

Many a true word spoke there Mike, I am happy many have had a refund, though refunds as you say are IMO not the big issue here, though it would bloody seem like it with everyone going back door to get their money rather than standing up to be counted & coming forward, I could reel off a huge list of names, but hey it's not my place to force others to do the right thing, all I can do is do the right thing myself, it's up to the others involved to do what they feel is right for them.

 

[Frunkstar]

Just be good to have an answer to why a refund is being offered when most other successful scams did nothing.

Because in reality only a very small amount of his fakes have been returned for refunds.. Think about how many have been churned out over the years, via ebay and toy fairs etc, and how many of those have been passed on to other unsuspecting buyers, who know nothing about this scam.. or even those that have been scammed and think it's only one £30 baggie, i can't be arsed with the hassle of returning it..

There's still collectors out there with toy toni's sitting in their collection, who know nothing about the whole TT saga.

Meanwhile Jeff is driving around in his Lambo..

Bingo! the refunds are IMO just another smokescreen to limit collateral damage, if every single fake item sold by Jeff over the years was returned for a refund I imagine it would be a staggering sum, be great to see that happen & more so to get a full breakdown or the items & real numbers involved.

 

[_Lee_]

Regarding his divorce, I dont buy that. I've been there, done it and lost everything I ever worked for in the past. I never once tried to use or abuse friends or fellow collectors to make financial gain Ripping people off isn't something can be rectified just by giving a refund, it runs deeper. That aside ,divorce is am awful process.

This guy is on a par with Toni and seemingly thinks that if he does what Toni didn't do ( meet unhappy collectors face to face ) then it is a path to redemption. That would be like Toni giving unused cardbacks out to his fraud victims by way of compensation.

Its always the people behind the scenes about these situations that suffer. Frank has brought so much info and proof to the table, but it seems he is being questioned. I remember the Toni debacle well and although I provided very important evidence to prove he was doing what he was I was harassed in the same way purely because I didn't agree with someone elses opinion. I'm still suffering after effects from that myself , and although its only toys to most people its a very important part of my life which keeps in affecting my thinking. Some people tend to ignore me purely because I will say something how it is, which I apologise for but it matters to me.

Let's not cause this to divide the forum, but let's also back Frank in this.

 

[Mr-shifter]

I have no horse in this race, as I have no baggies, and have never owned a baggie (save one opened one).

A casual observation on Jeffs stand from farthest from for the fifteen or so minutes that I wasn't sleeping off my drink induced stroke in the car or destroying the co-ops toilet.

It did look to me like the stall of someone selling up. I may well have got that wrong but it looked like that to me.

 

[ScruffyLookingNH]

Frank, I for one am immensely grateful and pleased you exposed this scam, and I don't collect baggies. I do think aspects of this, from all sides (and there are many, it seems,) that could have been handled better but that isn't the issue. The issue is the scam you discovered and proved. It's unfortunate that this has caused rifts and factions and I think personalities have had a great part to play.

That all said, I think those that are being negative towards refunds need to take a moment and consider the alternative: no refunds.

I don't think one single person here has said "Jeff's giving refunds so that makes everything right" so all this negativity towards refunds seem a bit daft. No, a refund does not make everything right, but it does make the financial part right (in some cases....) so that's a start. There is much that could be done to restore trust, quite possibly entirely, but that a matter for Jeff.

As has been said, the police wouldn't bat an eyelid unless you landed a completed case file on their desk. Jeff continues to protest his innocence and hand out refunds. It's better than just packing up, changing eBay names and selling elsewhere. Stopping Jeff from going to FF would not have made any sense. I'd love to know how much in the way of cash he handed back that da but I bet it was just a couple of hundred quid. People got their money back, how is that a bad thing?

As you say, Frank, it'll all come out in the wash with the UKG reports although I doubt it'll put this thing to bed.

 

[Michael Sith]

Absoloutely agree Lee.

Why has this whole debacle been brought to the attention of the community ? If you have to ask that question then you've, IMO, already Lost.

It's easy to stand by, not to commit,
To try and make the comfortable fit,
If a wrong is plainly in sight,
Have you the compunction to make things right ?
I salute those that take a stance through conviction,
Not to shy from attrition or contradiction,
For the benefit of others, not for personal gain,
These are the principles that need to remain,
Or do we stand by, hold back, hold fast,
Whilst others will nail their colours to the mast,
So thanks I put forward to he that will,
For the sake of others swallow the bitter pill.

Thank you Frank

 

[spoons]

Don't think anyone is arguing that refunds are bad Simon, I was just answering Grant's question 'why refund if he was out to defraud'

Like Ben I have no horse in this race and can see both sides, and refunds are certainly good!

I'm also someone who remembers and was involved in the Billy Boy fake prototype scandal.

Billy Boy was pretty much caught red handed faking prototypes and refunded quite a few of us based in the U.K (less bothered about refunding those a plane ride away)

From the outside the parallels to Jeff and his fake baggies are uncanny. In my opinion the only difference is Jeff has faced up to this in person, which is to be admired.