Response to Claims

[Jez]

I don't think clearing his name is possible, in any realistic way.

That's why **** is still getting shuffled from side to side.

I think you're right Adam.
The more this has developed the more I'm convinced that suspect baggies were at the very least knowingly sold. Mud will stick.

Frank has had his collecting passion shattered and even though I questioned if the first post was a little hasty, (accusation but no immediate proof) I'm saddened by this. I'm naturally saddened that once again our hobby has been rocked with controversy.

It's a real shame that the Echo Live opportunity couldn't be resolved.
I guess there will always be crime in collecting and that sucks but we all need to come together on this. No one will deny that Frank has thrown his heart into this investigation in an effort to get to the bottom of it. Frank I applaud you for your passion, don't give up.

The fact that most if not nearly all have had a full refund is a slight sweetener, but I won't lose sight of the big picture, people have been deceived and collecting hopes dashed. Tough times.
UKG have washed their hands. CAS want a shout at looking at them but I can't see any good coming of it.

If people were intimidating to other folk at FF they are out of order.
If people have sent Frank crappy messages they are out of order.
I've had a few messages back and forth from Frank recently and I know he has had some other distractions in recent times, but his absence is missed by the forum.
There are no winners here.

 

[wrighty]

Maybe I missed something, why is Jeff sending his baggies to CAS to be verified? I would thought it will more sense for UK & Europe to send to UKG and US to CAS, no? I am missing something right? :roll:

UKG have refused to be involved any further.

I see.... Thanks!

 

[wrighty]

Maybe I missed something, why is Jeff sending his baggies to CAS to be verified? I would thought it will more sense for UK & Europe to send to UKG and US to CAS, no? I am missing something right? :roll:

UKG have refused to be involved any further.

I see.... Thanks!

Actually any reasons why UKG doesn't want to be involved any more? :roll:

 

[edd_jedi]

I don't know but a few guesses:

1) Grading 900 baggies is a **** load of work
2) At their standard rate of £13.99 it would cost over 12 grand to grade them all
3) As many have said it doesn't really prove anything anyway, we all know many of Jeff's baggies are real, people are only interested in the fakes he sold

 

[wrighty]

I don't know but a few guesses:

1) Grading 900 baggies is a **** load of work
2) At their standard rate of £13.99 it would cost over 12 grand to grade them all
3) As many have said it doesn't really prove anything anyway, we all know many of Jeff's baggies are real, people are only interested in the fakes he sold

I would have thought **** load of work = also **** load of money! No one turn away work!

 

[maxf]

The fact that most if not nearly all have had a full refund is a slight sweetener

I don't think that's the case mate. There are some big amounts still outstanding as far as I know... and that's just of the collectors on here and Facebook.

 

[Jez]

The fact that most if not nearly all have had a full refund is a slight sweetener

I don't think that's the case mate. There are some big amounts still outstanding as far as I know... and that's just of the collectors on here and Facebook.

Hi Max, I didn't realise that that was the case. Going by the information i read on Frank's post i thought people were all nearly sorted hence my 'most, if not all'.

These are the most recent emails between myself & jeff trying to reach some kind of resolve to the fakes issue after UKG refused to look at them & returned them, which was IMO a wise decision on their part may I add.

Jeff -

As for refunds I have refunded most now and have only 3 others to fully refund and one part refunded , once I have had my financial situation settled and my divorced finalised I will see it they all get refunded in due course.

If that's the case then this is still worse than i thought. I hope people get their money back ASAP.

Just in case the quote may have been accidentally misquoted/misinterpreted the full line is as follows

The fact that most if not nearly all have had a full refund is a slight sweetener, but I won't lose sight of the big picture, people have been deceived and collecting hopes dashed. Tough times.

 

[spoons]

I've said it before but the situation seems to be identical to the Billy Boy Rogers scam. The only difference being there was no doubt that Billy Boy was making his fake baggies. Billy also refunded a lot of people, but generally only those in the UK and those with his address. A lot of the overseas collectors didn't see any refunds.

I hope Jeff is not only refunding those that could cause him issues.

 

[Jez]

Yeah, fair point. What a nightmare.

 

[subzero]

This Jeff is a moron, he's apparently stated that he would only give 6 days for people to get their money back which is ludicrous, and as what's already been stated it's only a tiny gesture to try and make it look like he's trying to resolve the issue, when in reality he really wants to keep as much of the money as possible instead of handing it back, because he knows not many buyers will come forward within 6 days.

Thing is in statute law people actually have 6 years to take any legal action for being scammed or left out of pocket, such as small claims or high court etc. So if anyone is still out of pocket by a decent sum of money and still have proof of their purchases i'd recommend taking a look into that route, and get advice from a solicitor if the amount you're owed is above £5k. If Jeff avoids defending his case through court action then it will be ruled in the claimants favour.

 

[yoda]

I hope everyone gets refunded that's got a fake after he said he would. If anyone is still owed money reading this thread I'd be pushing him hard now for it.
I think the legal route could end up a a mess and hopefully it's not needed. I believe it would be a long road and an uncertain outcome. If you did win and he still doesn't pay claiming he can't then what happens? Or if he says the item he sold wasn't a fake or can you prove it 100% that it is a fake, or he then claims that the the buyer must have possibly switched it after this length of time? We can all easily understand this thats now unfolded because we have a deep interest in Star Wars. Imagine someone trying to get their head around all this in a court who has no idea about vintage Star wars and what's original or fake. And if the seller turned up claiming he didn't sell fakes.
Court's can be a very unforgiving place to be. You'll go looking for justice but what you'll get is the law. But I suppose if someone can't get there money back and they believed the wer conned then they would have nothing to lose other than try.
I really hope it ends well for anyone affected by this whole miss.

 

[subzero]

Court would be the last resort thing that anybody would want to go through, it's obviously stressful, takes up time and money etc. A solicitor with all the details explained to would be the best route as they would have the best ideas on a defence, and also tell people how much of a chance they have or if they'd be wasting their time before they decide to go this route.

I believe in a case like this you'd need to bring ( if possible ) someone with you who has full knowledge of baggies, someone who can present the details in the fakes and fully explain the differences between those sold to you and examples of real ones ( unless you can do all this yourself ). But yes like you say Yoda if Jeff decided to be a complete arse and tried his best to void himself of any wrongdoing then it could end up being messy. However if several people took him to court at once ( not sure if that is possible? ) then a much stronger case would be against him as there's be much more proof of him selling these fakes to multiple people, instead of it just being one mans word against another.

If Jeff lost his case then it's possible you may not even win the full amount you believe you're owed, and in small claims you'd still have to chase up the money and take further action if he doesn't pay up. But if you've taken it through the high court for a higher sum of money then it would be much more enforceable, like bankruptcy being forced on him, and bailiffs etc!

 

[Bunglebubs]

I personally know a couple of guys who are owed +£10k's by Jeff so it is nowhere near almost all refunded as he claims.

 

[zhamlau]

What a fascinating read. I remember going over the threads on this months and months ago, i was surprised by all the moves this Jeff guy has made since then. Overall would people say he has paid back the majority of money owed to people on this forum and their associates?

 

[edd_jedi]

Just saw this on Facebook in a thread about the fake mailer boxes:

 

[TWOFOOT]

Well that was a long, long, long read. Looks like it was another contravercy I missed during my hiatus from the hobby.

I notice he is still selling on ebay so I'm guessing that there are many collectors (like me) who are tottally unaware of the whole incident.

I hope everyone who was owed money got a refund (but I doubt it).

I just worry about what a knock on effect this will have in the hobby in the future. For every 3 fakes sold there is probably only 1 person who knows they purchased a fake. As many collectors are not members of forums and would have no idea. And how many small collectors actually send baggies off for grading? Almost none I would guess. This leaves potentially hundreds of fake baggies in people's collections that are all like ticking time bombs.

Bad times for people collecting baggies.

 

[edd_jedi]

Yes you're right, you only have to look at Toy Toni MOCs to see the lasting effects. 5 years after the 'scandal' you not only see them for sale on eBay undisclosed, but even worse on Facebook I regularly see people incorrectly labelling any Palitoy MOC as a Toy Toni and scaring off buyers.

 

[Alltooeasy]

Funnily enough i nearly bought a baggie off him on facebook the other day! Backed out when i read this!

 

[laurencedyer]

Funnily enough i nearly bought a baggie off him on facebook the other day! Backed out when i read this!

Could I ask out of curiosity which Facebook group this baggie was for sale on?

Social media was not a platform that was utilised as an outlet for sale of the item's in question with eBay being the source of his initial sales. At the time of the allegations being made the accused stated many times that he was a technofobe therfore he was unable to comment on any of the social media posts regarding the matter. He avoided answering many direct questions asked at the time that were with regards to his supply, this action assisted with his defence loosing a lot of credibility but I am in the belief that he was telling the truth regards his lack of technological know how.
Due to the niche of Star Wars, and baggie collecting specifically along with his ability to have a constant supply to the market, relationships would be built as they would in any business model with a buyer, and also a seller who often provides you with the item's you want readily available when you cannot source them elsewhere. Trust is built after several transactions so therfore requests for item's are made directly. This was the model upon which he traded successfully with for many year's to collector's worldwide.

I am not suggesting by any means that he has not offered you an item via Facebook but I am curious as to what group it was offered on as one of the major concerns after the dust had settled was that of scare mongering in the future to coin a phrase.

 

[momike]

Which group was it posted on edd?

 

[edd_jedi]

Which group was it posted on edd?

I can't remember to be honest, maybe Tom's own group (The Admiral's Snackbar)

 

[momike]

Ok mate, I take it their is not much more to add or you would of said. So from what Tom derby says it looks like the sealed packs are indeed fakes

 

[ldr]

Damn...Franks just pointed me to this thread.

Looks like my 12 back baggie run might be in question now

 

[Mr-shifter]

Anything happened here recently? It's all gone a bit quiet.

 

[ldr]

Ok, as suggested here are photos of my first 12 set, all came from Jeff.

Are any of these legit? Any help would be much appreciated, thank you in advance.

C-3PO:

Leia (this has two stamps, each a different font):

Ben:

DSC:

 

[ldr]

Jawa:

Luke:

R2:

Sand People:

Chewie:

 

[ldr]

Han:

Stormie:

So any good? Or are all fakes

 

[momike]

Pretty sure ukg confirmed all the pal k baggies to be fakes so doesn't look good mate, that double sided font leia is terrible

This is the worst part about all this, collection dreams are being shattered because of this deception and imagine so many more are also blissfully unaware

Hope you get your money back from Jeff, keep us posted

 

[wrighty]

I bought a SW A Jawa baggie off Jeff, paid and it never arrived, he couldn't proof postage and gave me a full refund. Sorry all I can contribute.

 

[subzero]

This is just sad!

Sorry for you to hear your baggies are fake.