Resealed figure discovery debate - G.Kurtz Palitoy VC Jawa.

[jambobbyb]

I am sorry guys i just cant see it, i think its far more likely people will fall into three categories

1 Those who dont own these items, They dont care as have lost nothing financially and will avoid buying them like the plague, knowing that there is "something about them"
2 People who own them who will continue to try and prove them to be right or wrong.
3 people who have never heard of Toni who will continue to buy them off E-bay

at this moment in time we have no idea what *if anything* Toni has actually done apart from take his ball home!

 

[edd_jedi]

It's not so much that I missed the point, but the logic is confusing. The theory is you both ended-up with rejects. In your opinion, the ones you had couldn't grade 90, but Toni's could. What I'm saying is that it's specious to conclude that all high-grade samples come from Toni alone as I'm sure he had some "lower grade" inventory. I've been a custodian of uncirculated inventory and there is always a 20-30% rate of attrition just be the mere fact that the stock had to be handled by someone at the factory at some point, ended-up at the top/bottom of a pile, was exposed to wear and tear from being stored in a bin or from packaging, etc., whereas the ones in the middle of the pile were of the best quality. A vintage SW toy comparable is that not all MOC's in a case come out perfect.

Actually, I asked Toni on several occasions over the years if he has 'lesser' condition (ahem, cheaper!) examples of his popular MOCs such as Boba Fett and Luke Bespin. The answer was always no. He has sold lower quality tri logo and Kenner items in the past, so that ties in with what you are saying. But the fact ALL of his GM/Palitoy ESB items were PERFECT does indicate that he was not picking them out from dozens of factory sealed examples. Surely it would have been in his interest to sell off the poor condition ones if he had any as the market got more and more anal.

 

[finestcomics]

My opinion on this is quite simple actually. Having watched this sort of thing play out more times than I'd care to admit in other hobbies, the best possible outcome we can see from this is we disable the opportunity for this scheme to continue. Let's not dwell on the granularity and minutia of details that are lacking to stage a crater-sized smackdown that forever buries Toni, but rather, let's revisit what's been achieved to this end thus far.

First, we have frozen the ability for these items to be certified. We have also had Toni banned from both graders. This means even if people get the idea to do things like u-grade, or use graders as a way to insulate themselves from being held responsible, we are dealing only with the items that got through before AFA/UKG responded.

The reason for AFA/UKG's response falls squarely on the evidence that has come forward, and that Toni hasn't done anything to refute it. Until these allegations are proven otherwise untrue by him or with undeniable proof that his MOC's are legit, this "banning" of a rogue dealer/hobbyman should serve as a billboard-sized notice to Toni and anyone who gets the itch to try the same that the court of public opinion has decided, that there are real-life consequences (namely his name is mud) and the burden of proof rests entirely on him to prove us wrong.

All the great research and detective work is just going to help us gain more ground down the road to possibly match-up the public ruling laterally with a legal case. To this, I applaud and commend all those who have stepped-up and continued to participate in these endeavours.

lol at bold was first word i saw after the slanging match.

What if Toni never got any of these cardbacks like he first said, what if all his items are genuine................but then hang on a minute if that was the case he would have come out fighting, he has had his credibility totally destroyed and does nothing,......thats not the sign of an innocent man.

Lee, there is no doubt in my mind that he would have responded. I can't tell you how many times I've seen the knee-jerk reaction of burying ones head in the sand because they simply do not want to own up to the truth. We're not talking just people, but large businesses who were armed to the teeth with advisors and spinmeisters. My advice - tell it all, tell it early and tell it yourself.

 

[lee gray]

I am sorry guys i just cant see it, i think its far more likely people will fall into three categories

1 Those who dont own these items, They dont care as have lost nothing financially and will avoid buying them like the plague, knowing that there is "something about them"
2 People who own them who will continue to try and prove them to be right or wrong.
3 people who have never heard of Toni who will continue to buy them off E-bay

at this moment in time we have no idea what *if anything* Toni has actually done apart from take his ball home!

I must admit if i still owned these items i would be alot more pissed off about it than i am, i am sad in the fact i still love the look of the jedi carded fett and now can never get another one because i will never know for sure.

 

[finestcomics]

It's not so much that I missed the point, but the logic is confusing. The theory is you both ended-up with rejects. In your opinion, the ones you had couldn't grade 90, but Toni's could. What I'm saying is that it's specious to conclude that all high-grade samples come from Toni alone as I'm sure he had some "lower grade" inventory. I've been a custodian of uncirculated inventory and there is always a 20-30% rate of attrition just be the mere fact that the stock had to be handled by someone at the factory at some point, ended-up at the top/bottom of a pile, was exposed to wear and tear from being stored in a bin or from packaging, etc., whereas the ones in the middle of the pile were of the best quality. A vintage SW toy comparable is that not all MOC's in a case come out perfect.

Actually, I asked Toni on several occasions over the years if he has 'lesser' condition (ahem, cheaper!) examples of his popular MOCs such as Boba Fett and Luke Bespin. The answer was always no. He has sold lower quality tri logo and Kenner items in the past, so that ties in with what you are saying. But the fact ALL of his GM/Palitoy ESB items were PERFECT does indicate that he was not picking them out from dozens of factory sealed examples. Surely it would have been in his interest to sell off the poor condition ones if he had any as the market got more and more anal.

Good points, and certainly more to add to his dealing detail. I guess my main reason for bringing this up earlier was that it seemed too convenient an argument to suggest "lesser" condition items could be discriminated from Toni's. I would argue that there is a danger in suggesting this, because onlookers could get the idea to tie their Pali MOC's to the bumper of their card and drag it to the post office to get the "worn" and beaten look. Throw a vintage sticker on there for good measure. At this point, we have to agree that the fallout from this is we will have our squint turned full throttle on ESB/ROTJ lines from the list. I'm the first to admit this sucks because I'm effected, but we otherwise run the risk of having this information used against each other, when it's intent is to aid the community.

 

[Grant_C]

Ok,

I'm bowing out of this, I don't have much invested in this really. ( Famous last words)

I have spoken to loads of people from back in the day, Graders, forum and internet community, dealers and collectors.

I have tried to both prove and disprove the accusations and this is my conclusion.

01: The evidence is almost overwhelming that Toytoni has been buying large quantities of mint loose, ugraded, baggie figures that match the list.
02: I believe that the evidence shows that Toytoni has perfected the sealing process (This means that I have doubts on Trilogo. If he has the cardbacks and bubbles)
03: AFA have ugraded Toytoni stock.
04: The people who have the information to give strong supporting evidence have the most to lose.
05: Only a criminal investigation by those dealers, graders and collectors simultaneously who have the most to loose will get to the bottom of this.

I think everyone has done a great job on this on all the main forums.

That's the end of the road for me.

 

[edd_jedi]

Here's one such exchange if it helps:

--------------------------

[email protected]
11/12/2010

Hi Toni,

Do you have a range of conditions available? I would be interested in
a lesser condition one if it was cheaper.

Thanks,
Edd

-------------------------

[email protected]
11/12/2010

hi i dont have any lesser condition fetts thanks toni

 

[Richard_H]

I also forgot to add...for those who would like...you can block certain members posts from your view, thus eliminating some of us vocal *******.....

Can someone read this message out to me because it says "I'm sorry this comment has been censored due to failing to meet a certain standard."

 

[Jez]

Just stumbled across this thread; what's going on?

 

[finestcomics]

[youtube]O6wpAH_Edp8[/youtube]

 

[tiefighterboy]

I also forgot to add...for those who would like...you can block certain members posts from your view, thus eliminating some of us vocal *******.....

Can someone read this message out to me because it says "I'm sorry this comment has been censored due to failing to meet a certain standard."

You are not an expert....so this may apply to you. :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[ace]

by the way Jay actually picking on someone's disability was that really a good place to go mate ? i mean dose that really help you make your point ? wow that was pretty low am i going to expect more like that from you to win your points ?



youv gotta be kidding me its not a game im not in it for points ive been civil tongued all along.and because you felt brave enough behind your screen you decided call ME slow and tell me you meant it ? PUBLICLY and you expected me to take that ? :lol:
erm i think not . so i give you a little backfire inturn calling you slow back and im the bad guy :? :roll:
your ridicluous:lol: :lol: A little tip for you maybe you shouldnt dish out the name calling if cant take it back and a man your age should know that :wink: and its quite clear youv tried to defend yourself and wrote enough rants here & none of it has achieved anything other than showing me EXACTLY why people dislike you :wink: now move along!
and stop your spamming with your biblicaly sized nonsensical pointless public rants towards me which have no baring on whats going here , AGAIN and for the last time if you feel the need to have the last word towards me again pm me to do that
or wait until comic con when you can call me slow to my face :twisted:

jay the irony

"because you felt brave enough behind your screen"

ok whats your real name Jay ? you have mine you know what i look like so come on step out from behind your screen .

"wait until comic con when you can call me slow to my face"

thats really sounds so grown up

amazing

and my last word is your devil face and the end of your sentence dose frighten me :-0

 

[tiefighterboy]

I think you and Jay need to get a room. :lol:

 

[ace]

I think you and Jay need to get a room. :lol:

i think we need separate rooms mate and his one needs to be padded

wow and i only thought last week what a cool bunch on here , there are no real crazys on here as there is normally one maybe i spoke to soon

 

[lee gray]

Ok,

I'm bowing out of this, I don't have much invested in this really. ( Famous last words)

I have spoken to loads of people from back in the day, Graders, forum and internet community, dealers and collectors.

I have tried to both prove and disprove the accusations and this is my conclusion.

01: The evidence is almost overwhelming that Toytoni has been buying large quantities of mint loose, ugraded, baggie figures that match the list.
02: I believe that the evidence shows that Toytoni has perfected the sealing process (This means that I have doubts on Trilogo. If he has the cardbacks and bubbles)
03: AFA have ugraded Toytoni stock.
04: The people who have the information to give strong supporting evidence have the most to lose.
05: Only a criminal investigation by those dealers, graders and collectors simultaneously who have the most to loose will get to the bottom of this.

I think everyone has done a great job on this on all the main forums.

That's the end of the road for me.

You cant bow out now as was you who got JJ here in the first place and otherwise we wouldnt have known, so you got to be here for the long road ahead lol

 

[lee gray]

Just out of interest Jason Joiner, has any group of people ever called you JJ before as here it seems the norm, Obviously if Jason Smith had not posted in here there might not have been the need for the JJ as people would know what Jason was being mentioned but theres 4 other Lee's who I know of posting in here and we dont get the special initial treatment lol, dont think I ever been known as LG

dont think I ever been known as LG

They make TV's or something don't they - LG? Could be why. Confusing see :? :wink:

I got an LG G2 phone

 

[x-pack]

dont think I ever been known as LG

They make TV's or something don't they - LG? Could be why. Confusing see :? :wink:

 

[Grant_C]

Toytoni Hoth Stormtrooper:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Vintage-Star-Wars-Hoth-Snowtrooper-Carded-ROTJ-AFA-85-Archival-Cased-/121245153966?_trksid=p2047675.l2557&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEWAX%3AIT&nma=true&si=qPQlrg5ytf5FIth8u9hirO6UnR8%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc

 

[lee gray]

Toytoni Hoth Stormtrooper:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Vintage-Star-Wars-Hoth-Snowtrooper-Carded-ROTJ-AFA-85-Archival-Cased-/121245153966?_trksid=p2047675.l2557&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEWAX%3AIT&nma=true&si=qPQlrg5ytf5FIth8u9hirO6UnR8%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc

You would have thought with all that info he added about grading, he would have sneakily added a line about toytoni too.

Soon i think my most active posts in recent acquisitions will change to this thread.

 

[ace]

Ok,

I'm bowing out of this, I don't have much invested in this really. ( Famous last words)

I have spoken to loads of people from back in the day, Graders, forum and internet community, dealers and collectors.

I have tried to both prove and disprove the accusations and this is my conclusion.

01: The evidence is almost overwhelming that Toytoni has been buying large quantities of mint loose, ugraded, baggie figures that match the list.
02: I believe that the evidence shows that Toytoni has perfected the sealing process (This means that I have doubts on Trilogo. If he has the cardbacks and bubbles)
03: AFA have ugraded Toytoni stock.
04: The people who have the information to give strong supporting evidence have the most to lose.
05: Only a criminal investigation by those dealers, graders and collectors simultaneously who have the most to loose will get to the bottom of this.

I think everyone has done a great job on this on all the main forums.

That's the end of the road for me.

you know what Maulster79 i think i am with you on this also

when i was debating to show the truth it was worth my time on here as it was doing some good now we are going to have everyone that owns one of these figures fighting to to prove there £200 figure is good and thats going to go on now for ever.


To your points Maulster79

01 agreed
02 agreed
03 agreed
04 agreed
05 Totally agreed

i do feel the only place to have gone was to put a investigation team on to this issue and not to have it on here where everyone thats new put in there thoughts with out knowing all the back story and where we do not all have to fight for whats been proven already each day

you can turn and twist everything its just like the moon landings they went and we did go there , Toni did do this and he is still doing this , the end

i would like to say it was fun but that would be a lie, thanks jay in a way you are saving me wasting anymore of my time, so for that i thank you .

everyone else good luck hope you get to the bottom of this for all the collectors out theres sake.

if Toni contacts you let me know ok :-D

happy new year and by for this thread at least

Jason

 

[x-pack]

Ok,

I'm bowing out of this, I don't have much invested in this really. ( Famous last words)

I have spoken to loads of people from back in the day, Graders, forum and internet community, dealers and collectors.

I have tried to both prove and disprove the accusations and this is my conclusion.

01: The evidence is almost overwhelming that Toytoni has been buying large quantities of mint loose, ugraded, baggie figures that match the list.
02: I believe that the evidence shows that Toytoni has perfected the sealing process (This means that I have doubts on Trilogo. If he has the cardbacks and bubbles)
03: AFA have ugraded Toytoni stock.
04: The people who have the information to give strong supporting evidence have the most to lose.
05: Only a criminal investigation by those dealers, graders and collectors simultaneously who have the most to loose will get to the bottom of this.

I think everyone has done a great job on this on all the main forums.

That's the end of the road for me.

You cant bow out now as was you who got JJ here in the first place and otherwise we wouldnt have known, so you got to be here for the long road ahead lol

I said almost literally a hundred pages ago that this needs to be placed in the hands of the authorities. I'm no expert so it won't be by me. But if people leave the debate and let it slide then TT will have got away with the alleged crimes. If people are happy with that, well that's not the right word ...if people are willing to accept this then arguably there's little point in the continuation of the discussion. Tony and perhaps others can sleep a bit more easily

 

[ace]

Just out of interest Jason Joiner, has any group of people ever called you JJ before as here it seems the norm, Obviously if Jason Smith had not posted in here there might not have been the need for the JJ as people would know what Jason was being mentioned but theres 4 other Lee's who I know of posting in here and we dont get the special initial treatment lol, dont think I ever been known as LG

dont think I ever been known as LG

They make TV's or something don't they - LG? Could be why. Confusing see :? :wink:

I got an LG G2 phone

hi mate response in here

http://www.starwarsforum.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=18690&p=266960#p266960

my attempt to leave the bad place and get a life

 

[mr_palitoy]

Things are afoot at AFA...

http://www.toygrader.com/

SITE DOWN FOR EMERGENCY MAINTENENCE



For questions or to place an order

Please email: [email protected]

Or call: 770.825.0420

 

[finestcomics]

Reposted from RS:

I did speak to Tom last week and one of the action items he mentioned was some programming work AFA needed to perform on the site, so this is probably the result of that maintenance/upgrade effort.

 

[jay4]

I think you and Jay need to get a room. :lol:

i think he would love that

 

[jedisearcher]

Ace, I think a private group would have been counter-productive. Nothing conculsive has been found I know, but you might have been missing out on evidence by excluding people. You can only see the detail with the items in hand, photo's aren't always enough.

Like I said last night, the other part of the Arthur Browns list would have been really valuable because it would help people know what might have been already carded at the factory and might give them more clarity about their items. I have 2 GM's that are too good (so fake), but 2 that look more worn, as if they'd been through a real production line. I'm assuming fake at this point, but if I knew some carded stock existed then I'd probably assume they were real. Whatever, it's a shame it never turned up as it's a critical part of the picture.

I also think outing Toni was probably the best we could have hoped for like finest said. Yeah, refunds would have been good and I'm still going to progress mine through the small claims court, but if he ***** off to Thailand we can just pray a shark eats him or he gets arrested with Gary Glitter. Whatever happens, his life, business and reputation is in shambles. What goes around comes around etc.

As AFA/UKG have agreed to never touch his business again I think someone should probably let the robot guys know. If the graders accept the problem thats a pretty damning statement of fact and he might have been peddling similar **** elsewhere in his business. Of course, we really don't know for sure but if the tables were turned and the robot half of his business was built on fakes, I think I'd like full disclosure when it comes to his Star Wars stuff. Fake business is fake business.

Chris

 

[wbobafett]

I am sorry guys i just cant see it, i think its far more likely people will fall into three categories

1 Those who dont own these items, They dont care as have lost nothing financially and will avoid buying them like the plague, knowing that there is "something about them"
2 People who own them who will continue to try and prove them to be right or wrong.
3 people who have never heard of Toni who will continue to buy them off E-bay

at this moment in time we have no idea what *if anything* Toni has actually done apart from take his ball home!

I personally find this very offensive!!!

I do not fall into any of those categories! I am a loose collector and do not own a SINGLE MOC! And nevertheless I DO care! I tried eveyrthing possible form my point of view....so please consider #1 as nonsense!!

I have a feeling despite your opinion that people who actually own them are not interested to loose money on those!! There is really 0-5% response of the collectors on board who actually own a ton of those!! It is very sad.....

Thanks to the guys who (tried to) help....

I have not much left for the guys who stick their heads into the sand!!! Disgraceful!!

 

[finestcomics]

I also think outing Toni was probably the best we could have hoped for like finest said. Yeah, refunds would have been good and I'm still going to progress mine through the small claims court, but if he ***** off to Thailand we can just pray a shark eats him or he gets arrested with Gary Glitter. Whatever happens, his life, business and reputation is in shambles. What goes around comes around etc.

As AFA/UKG have agreed to never touch his business again I think someone should probably let the robot guys know. If the graders accept the problem thats a pretty damning statement of fact and he might have been peddling similar **** elsewhere in his business. Of course, we really don't know for sure but if the tables were turned and the robot half of his business was built on fakes, I think I'd like full disclosure when it comes to his Star Wars stuff. Fake business is fake business.

Chris

Well said Chris. I had a chuckle reading about the sharks.

And I 100% agree about the need for the tin litho/toy robot hobby needing to be forewarned of his tarnished image and reputation.

 

[Grant_C]

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Star-Wars-Palitoy-vintage-Boba-Fett-backing-card-1983-2-/111258564837?pt=UK_ToysGames_ActionFigures_ActionFigures_JN&hash=item19e786f8e5

 

[Richard_H]

I also forgot to add...for those who would like...you can block certain members posts from your view, thus eliminating some of us vocal *******.....

Can someone read this message out to me because it says "I'm sorry this comment has been censored due to failing to meet a certain standard."

You are not an expert....so this may apply to you. :lol: :lol: :lol:

I knew it. You're Bill's sock.