Resealed figure discovery debate - G.Kurtz Palitoy VC Jawa.

[tiefighterboy]

a private group is not a good idea IMO - this thread is fantastic for bouncing ideas around, so what if they reach dead ends?

Yeah- its so interesting learning all this new stuff.

Grant you are an expert. :lol: :lol: :lol:

I also forgot to add...for those who would like...you can block certain members posts from your view, thus eliminating some of us vocal retards.....

 

[Grant_C]

a private group is not a good idea IMO - this thread is fantastic for bouncing ideas around, so what if they reach dead ends?

Yeah- its so interesting learning all this new stuff.

Grant you are an expert. :lol: :lol: :lol:

I am?

Must update that CV.

(Read the following as a Gregorian chant)

The only way you will get to the end is by collectively taking your case to the authorities at the same time. Including Internationally. They are the only ones who have the power of the force who can mind trick the alleged and discover the truth.....

Unless this happens, you will get more annoyed by discussion circles in threads......

Meow.

 

[tiefighterboy]

So true...I have tried to stay out of this thread, but calling each other names and now a request for some top secret expert thread...well that wound me up a bit.

 

[jay4]

by the way Jay actually picking on someone's disability was that really a good place to go mate ? i mean dose that really help you make your point ? wow that was pretty low am i going to expect more like that from you to win your points ?



youv gotta be kidding me its not a game im not in it for points ive been civil tongued all along.and because you felt brave enough behind your screen you decided call ME slow and tell me you meant it ? PUBLICLY and you expected me to take that ? :lol:
erm i think not . so i give you a little backfire inturn calling you slow back and im the bad guy :? :roll:
your ridicluous:lol: :lol: A little tip for you maybe you shouldnt dish out the name calling if cant take it back and a man your age should know that :wink: and its quite clear youv tried to defend yourself and wrote enough rants here & none of it has achieved anything other than showing me EXACTLY why people dislike you :wink: now move along!
and stop your spamming with your biblicaly sized nonsensical pointless public rants towards me which have no baring on whats going here , AGAIN and for the last time if you feel the need to have the last word towards me again pm me to do that
or wait until comic con when you can call me slow to my face :twisted:

 

[jambobbyb]

I too think Toni is guilty of something but here we are seven weeks later and still no one seems to have the foggiest idea what that something was or is or now even if it has happened. i cant see why Toni would allow his reputation, one he has built up for a number of years be smashed to pieces with out a single word by someone he openly admits he doesnt like. I would happily listen to him if he were to come on here and discuss his point but he wont he prefers to make hi sE-bay accounts private and remove the stock he has remaining from his site abd his "shop" implicating him in this mess which leads me to believe something is afoot.

 

[jay4]

I too think Toni is guilty of something but here we are seven weeks later and still no one seems to have the foggiest idea what that something was or is or now even if it has happened. i cant see why Toni would allow his reputation, one he has built up for a number of years be smashed to pieces with out a single word by someone he openly admits he doesnt like. I would happily listen to him if he were to come on here and discuss his point but he wont he prefers to make hi sE-bay accounts private and remove the stock he has remaining from his site abd his "shop" implicating him in this mess which leads me to believe something is afoot.

i think everyones agreed toni is guilty of something , i dont think theres any doubt on that , its just to what degree thats to be sussed

 

[jambobbyb]

But what? thats my point we are never going to know unless either we can find out a way to identify something different about these cards (which we catn in most cases) or Toni comes out and says i did X Y or Z (which he wont) or some other piece of information comes to light. (Which is unlikely given the time that has passed)

 

[jay4]

But what? thats my point we are never going to know unless either we can find out a way to identify something different about these cards (which we catn in most cases) or Toni comes out and says i did X Y or Z (which he wont) or some other piece of information comes to light. (Which is unlikely given the time that has passed)

at least it has been delved into and looked at from most angles, card and bubble wise from all the blokes in the know , and allthough tho most of it has been proved wrong since or pointless at least those things have been looked at and scrutinised which means those most of those things can now be ellimanted from doubt and can be left behind and people can focus on new ways of identification that havent been scrutinised yet , it never was gonna be a quik process this and i think a few months down the line from now and the ellimination process goes on .in time things will become clearer , we just have to put a bit of faith in the smart lads and guys in the know on here and elsewhere to do so .and with the amount of work and effort thats gone on in just the last 7 weeks alone which is incredible really things have allready moved fast in my eyes . just takes time , bare in mind the police are still trying to solve cases after 20 or 30 years that are less complicated than this. i just feel for all the collectors who have put serious money into this and are in limbo .but its those same guys that will be working behind the scenes , ive no doubt theres people out there have been working on this from the start that havent even commented anywhere yet and wont until they have something. with the huge money involved here there will be collectors out there in this category of thinking

 

[finestcomics]

My opinion on this is quite simple actually. Having watched this sort of thing play out more times than I'd care to admit in other hobbies, the best possible outcome we can see from this is we disable the opportunity for this scheme to continue. Let's not dwell on the granularity and minutia of details that are lacking to stage a crater-sized smackdown that forever buries Toni, but rather, let's revisit what's been achieved to this end thus far.

First, we have frozen the ability for these items to be certified. We have also had Toni banned from both graders. This means even if people get the idea to do things like u-grade, or use graders as a way to insulate themselves from being held responsible, we are dealing only with the items that got through before AFA/UKG responded.

The reason for AFA/UKG's response falls squarely on the evidence that has come forward, and that Toni hasn't done anything to refute it. Until these allegations are proven otherwise untrue by him or with undeniable proof that his MOC's are legit, this "banning" of a rogue dealer/hobbyman should serve as a billboard-sized notice to Toni and anyone who gets the itch to try the same that the court of public opinion has decided, that there are real-life consequences (namely his name is mud) and the burden of proof rests entirely on him to prove us wrong.

All the great research and detective work is just going to help us gain more ground down the road to possibly match-up the public ruling laterally with a legal case. To this, I applaud and commend all those who have stepped-up and continued to participate in these endeavours.

 

[lee gray]

My opinion on this is quite simple actually. Having watched this sort of thing play out more times than I'd care to admit in other hobbies, the best possible outcome we can see from this is we disable the opportunity for this scheme to continue. Let's not dwell on the granularity and minutia of details that are lacking to stage a crater-sized smackdown that forever buries Toni, but rather, let's revisit what's been achieved to this end thus far.

First, we have frozen the ability for these items to be certified. We have also had Toni banned from both graders. This means even if people get the idea to do things like u-grade, or use graders as a way to insulate themselves from being held responsible, we are dealing only with the items that got through before AFA/UKG responded.

The reason for AFA/UKG's response falls squarely on the evidence that has come forward, and that Toni hasn't done anything to refute it. Until these allegations are proven otherwise untrue by him or with undeniable proof that his MOC's are legit, this "banning" of a rogue dealer/hobbyman should serve as a billboard-sized notice to Toni and anyone who gets the itch to try the same that the court of public opinion has decided, that there are real-life consequences (namely his name is mud) and the burden of proof rests entirely on him to prove us wrong.

All the great research and detective work is just going to help us gain more ground down the road to possibly match-up the public ruling laterally with a legal case. To this, I applaud and commend all those who have stepped-up and continued to participate in these endeavours.

lol at bold was first word i saw after the slanging match.

What if Toni never got any of these cardbacks like he first said, what if all his items are genuine................but then hang on a minute if that was the case he would have come out fighting, he has had his credibility totally destroyed and does nothing,......thats not the sign of an innocent man.

 

[jambobbyb]

I am sorry guys i just cant see it, i think its far more likely people will fall into three categories

1 Those who dont own these items, They dont care as have lost nothing financially and will avoid buying them like the plague, knowing that there is "something about them"
2 People who own them who will continue to try and prove them to be right or wrong.
3 people who have never heard of Toni who will continue to buy them off E-bay

at this moment in time we have no idea what *if anything* Toni has actually done apart from take his ball home!

 

[edd_jedi]

It's not so much that I missed the point, but the logic is confusing. The theory is you both ended-up with rejects. In your opinion, the ones you had couldn't grade 90, but Toni's could. What I'm saying is that it's specious to conclude that all high-grade samples come from Toni alone as I'm sure he had some "lower grade" inventory. I've been a custodian of uncirculated inventory and there is always a 20-30% rate of attrition just be the mere fact that the stock had to be handled by someone at the factory at some point, ended-up at the top/bottom of a pile, was exposed to wear and tear from being stored in a bin or from packaging, etc., whereas the ones in the middle of the pile were of the best quality. A vintage SW toy comparable is that not all MOC's in a case come out perfect.

Actually, I asked Toni on several occasions over the years if he has 'lesser' condition (ahem, cheaper!) examples of his popular MOCs such as Boba Fett and Luke Bespin. The answer was always no. He has sold lower quality tri logo and Kenner items in the past, so that ties in with what you are saying. But the fact ALL of his GM/Palitoy ESB items were PERFECT does indicate that he was not picking them out from dozens of factory sealed examples. Surely it would have been in his interest to sell off the poor condition ones if he had any as the market got more and more anal.

 

[finestcomics]

My opinion on this is quite simple actually. Having watched this sort of thing play out more times than I'd care to admit in other hobbies, the best possible outcome we can see from this is we disable the opportunity for this scheme to continue. Let's not dwell on the granularity and minutia of details that are lacking to stage a crater-sized smackdown that forever buries Toni, but rather, let's revisit what's been achieved to this end thus far.

First, we have frozen the ability for these items to be certified. We have also had Toni banned from both graders. This means even if people get the idea to do things like u-grade, or use graders as a way to insulate themselves from being held responsible, we are dealing only with the items that got through before AFA/UKG responded.

The reason for AFA/UKG's response falls squarely on the evidence that has come forward, and that Toni hasn't done anything to refute it. Until these allegations are proven otherwise untrue by him or with undeniable proof that his MOC's are legit, this "banning" of a rogue dealer/hobbyman should serve as a billboard-sized notice to Toni and anyone who gets the itch to try the same that the court of public opinion has decided, that there are real-life consequences (namely his name is mud) and the burden of proof rests entirely on him to prove us wrong.

All the great research and detective work is just going to help us gain more ground down the road to possibly match-up the public ruling laterally with a legal case. To this, I applaud and commend all those who have stepped-up and continued to participate in these endeavours.

lol at bold was first word i saw after the slanging match.

What if Toni never got any of these cardbacks like he first said, what if all his items are genuine................but then hang on a minute if that was the case he would have come out fighting, he has had his credibility totally destroyed and does nothing,......thats not the sign of an innocent man.

Lee, there is no doubt in my mind that he would have responded. I can't tell you how many times I've seen the knee-jerk reaction of burying ones head in the sand because they simply do not want to own up to the truth. We're not talking just people, but large businesses who were armed to the teeth with advisors and spinmeisters. My advice - tell it all, tell it early and tell it yourself.

 

[lee gray]

I am sorry guys i just cant see it, i think its far more likely people will fall into three categories

1 Those who dont own these items, They dont care as have lost nothing financially and will avoid buying them like the plague, knowing that there is "something about them"
2 People who own them who will continue to try and prove them to be right or wrong.
3 people who have never heard of Toni who will continue to buy them off E-bay

at this moment in time we have no idea what *if anything* Toni has actually done apart from take his ball home!

I must admit if i still owned these items i would be alot more pissed off about it than i am, i am sad in the fact i still love the look of the jedi carded fett and now can never get another one because i will never know for sure.

 

[finestcomics]

It's not so much that I missed the point, but the logic is confusing. The theory is you both ended-up with rejects. In your opinion, the ones you had couldn't grade 90, but Toni's could. What I'm saying is that it's specious to conclude that all high-grade samples come from Toni alone as I'm sure he had some "lower grade" inventory. I've been a custodian of uncirculated inventory and there is always a 20-30% rate of attrition just be the mere fact that the stock had to be handled by someone at the factory at some point, ended-up at the top/bottom of a pile, was exposed to wear and tear from being stored in a bin or from packaging, etc., whereas the ones in the middle of the pile were of the best quality. A vintage SW toy comparable is that not all MOC's in a case come out perfect.

Actually, I asked Toni on several occasions over the years if he has 'lesser' condition (ahem, cheaper!) examples of his popular MOCs such as Boba Fett and Luke Bespin. The answer was always no. He has sold lower quality tri logo and Kenner items in the past, so that ties in with what you are saying. But the fact ALL of his GM/Palitoy ESB items were PERFECT does indicate that he was not picking them out from dozens of factory sealed examples. Surely it would have been in his interest to sell off the poor condition ones if he had any as the market got more and more anal.

Good points, and certainly more to add to his dealing detail. I guess my main reason for bringing this up earlier was that it seemed too convenient an argument to suggest "lesser" condition items could be discriminated from Toni's. I would argue that there is a danger in suggesting this, because onlookers could get the idea to tie their Pali MOC's to the bumper of their card and drag it to the post office to get the "worn" and beaten look. Throw a vintage sticker on there for good measure. At this point, we have to agree that the fallout from this is we will have our squint turned full throttle on ESB/ROTJ lines from the list. I'm the first to admit this sucks because I'm effected, but we otherwise run the risk of having this information used against each other, when it's intent is to aid the community.

 

[Grant_C]

Ok,

I'm bowing out of this, I don't have much invested in this really. ( Famous last words)

I have spoken to loads of people from back in the day, Graders, forum and internet community, dealers and collectors.

I have tried to both prove and disprove the accusations and this is my conclusion.

01: The evidence is almost overwhelming that Toytoni has been buying large quantities of mint loose, ugraded, baggie figures that match the list.
02: I believe that the evidence shows that Toytoni has perfected the sealing process (This means that I have doubts on Trilogo. If he has the cardbacks and bubbles)
03: AFA have ugraded Toytoni stock.
04: The people who have the information to give strong supporting evidence have the most to lose.
05: Only a criminal investigation by those dealers, graders and collectors simultaneously who have the most to loose will get to the bottom of this.

I think everyone has done a great job on this on all the main forums.

That's the end of the road for me.

 

[edd_jedi]

Here's one such exchange if it helps:

--------------------------

[email protected]
11/12/2010

Hi Toni,

Do you have a range of conditions available? I would be interested in
a lesser condition one if it was cheaper.

Thanks,
Edd

-------------------------

[email protected]
11/12/2010

hi i dont have any lesser condition fetts thanks toni

 

[Richard_H]

I also forgot to add...for those who would like...you can block certain members posts from your view, thus eliminating some of us vocal retards.....

Can someone read this message out to me because it says "I'm sorry this comment has been censored due to failing to meet a certain standard."

 

[Jez]

Just stumbled across this thread; what's going on?

 

[finestcomics]

[youtube]O6wpAH_Edp8[/youtube]