Resealed figure discovery debate - G.Kurtz Palitoy VC Jawa.

[itfciain]

If you read all three descriptions then his source for such hi-ticket items differs each time

1. 20 years in storage
2. At Comic-con last year
3. Of a bloke on a bric a brac stool

All seems might suspicious to me - especially as the Boba has ended

Hi Iain

The Luke bespin was the exact same one I sold in October. Same serial number. So he's definitely up to something. He never bought it at comic con. They're his own pictures though.

Cheer Lee

So the guy in clearly a liar but maybe not TT - I guess he is just trying to shift dodgy items by making them sound authentic

 

[Lee77]

Hi Lee

Hobbies lost the plot

How you doing Grant?

Was pondering buying a couple of mocs again but after attempting to read this thread, I think ill keep my cash in the bank.
Not really sure what to make of it all.

 

[Grant_C]

Hi Lee

Hobbies lost the plot

How you doing Grant?

Was pondering buying a couple of mocs again but after attempting to read this thread, I think ill keep my cash in the bank.
Not really sure what to make of it all.

It be great to have you back.

I hear trilogo makes people happy these days. :wink:

 

[jedisearcher]

It's a real shame the second part of the Arthus Brown list never turned up.

That would pretty much prove/disprove things either way:

If it had items listed as assembled Palitoy MOC's that TT has been selling over the year in large quantities (HST, Fett, 3PO's) then it buys him some credibility.

If it had none of those popular items on, then it's hard to argue that he can be innocent.

JJ is there any chance another dealer might have a copy? It's looking like the smoking gun and would be a massive help. JJ I also think it would pretty much confirm your side of the story for people not convinced with what you're saying, and TT's 2nd ebay and silence.

Nice intermission btw :lol:

 

[RKW1138]

Here are scans of the Palitoy Hoth Stormtrooper cardback with a Boots price sticker on that I've owned since 1983 which may come in useful as a comparison to the Toni cards:

http://i885.photobucket.com/albums/ac60/jamashsim72/img002_zps4956a707.jpg

http://i885.photobucket.com/albums/ac60/jamashsim72/img003_zps7e364b96.jpg

Hope the links work.

James.

Thanks for posting.

Because of the same red blob print error on yours this does now mean we can date this print error to 1983 or prior. I just struggle to understand why Palitoy would have held back 45 back cards for nearly 2yrs. If they were rejects it would make some sense to me. Craig Stevens believed the Boba Fetts were all rejects because of the bubbles not attaching. But then if they were all rejects cast aside who would set aside carded figures good enough to grade 90+.

The other thing I struggle with is that any carded figures would have been sat around in boxes for at least 4yrs as I don't think Arthur sold them until 1989. I can't imagine Palitoy workers being too gentle with them! Yet there is not one crease or scuff to any of the bubbles??

 

[panastur]

The seal is easier to spot differences on this MOC than some others because the black background.

If we could see a TIE Pilot Palitoy 45a seal and compare it to a 45b- we might see some similarities.

I don't have one though or can find a high-res picture.

I would like to buy one though.


Edit: Does anyone still care about this? :lol: I don't care if you don't- i'll just use it to get my post count up since theres a lack of wacko's on here recently to have long threads about.

Hi Maulster,

It's a mistake try to compare a Palitoy 45a with a 45b since the first card was made and packaged in the Far-East and the last one in the UK...
It's also a mistake to compare seals of a "Double Stem" with a "Single Stem" bubble. Thay are completely different.

It's clear that this thread has stucked... People are just trying to prove their cards are real or fake and we go nowhere.

Did nobody accepted the fact that all "un-marked"/no-pattern Single Stem bubbles are fake????

Did nobody accepted that rigid large rounded bubbles are fake???? ...it's also a fact!!!!

So what more people need to accept it????

I have to admit that "Double Stem" bubbles are still a mistery for me, but for the other bubbles, i have no more doubt on it.

JC

 

[ace]

:shock: you have said / written all that need be said in your statement above jason (any other suspect tts and other high value cards aside ) MY and other peoples hoth stormies COULD have came from you at grass root level before anyone else had them and I AGREE with what you said your RIGHT it could have come from you and thats my point and AGAIN its all ive ever said ,honestly man thats not hard to understand :? & i asked you before in an previous post if u wanted to reply to me in pm to do so and stop spamming this page up ,now please if you have anything else you want to say which you should not pm me , again END OF!
AND the irony in me being called slow from someone who IS actually slow in some way is too funny .classic

i will say in here in public as you called me out in public Jay so no i will not continue this in pm , if you or anyone else ever calls me out or accuses me of anything i plan to defined my self in a public place like this and show the accuser up for a lie or perpetuating a lie , i have had 15 years of hearsay and rumours and frankly i am sick of this and the spineless people that put this crap out there , when i do have tile i think i will call them out about the old posts of forums from sometimes 5 to 7 years ago when people then know nothing say trash about me , its a small world and stuff get said and people that know nothing spout this trash but the fact is i am reel person these people are talking about me and i tell you i have not behaved in this manner and never wood , i know its never really going to go away but i have the right to say the truth from my side and this forum has aloud me to do that , for that i plan to stay on here and use this place to talk to others and show things from time to time as mostly everyone has given me the benefit of the dough , and thats all i have asked for , stop the unfounded rumours and take me for what i am on here as its me speaking not some story that someone spouted some 10 years ago its just crazy .

by the way Jay actually picking on someone's disability was that really a good place to go mate ? i mean dose that really help you make your point ? wow that was pretty low am i going to expect more like that from you to win your points ?

i move on and i do so on a public forum

 

[wbobafett]

The seal is easier to spot differences on this MOC than some others because the black background.

If we could see a TIE Pilot Palitoy 45a seal and compare it to a 45b- we might see some similarities.

I don't have one though or can find a high-res picture.

I would like to buy one though.


Edit: Does anyone still care about this? :lol: I don't care if you don't- i'll just use it to get my post count up since theres a lack of wacko's on here recently to have long threads about.

Hi Maulster,

It's a mistake try to compare a Palitoy 45a with a 45b since the first card was made and packaged in the Far-East and the last one in the UK...
It's also a mistake to compare seals of a "Double Stem" with a "Single Stem" bubble. Thay are completely different.

It's clear that this thread has stucked... People are just trying to prove their cards are real or fake and we go nowhere.

Did nobody accepted the fact that all "un-marked"/no-pattern Single Stem bubbles are fake????

Did nobody accepted that rigid large rounded bubbles are fake???? ...it's also a fact!!!!

So what more people need to accept it????

I have to admit that "Double Stem" bubbles are still a mistery for me, but for the other bubbles, i have no more doubt on it.

JC

Hey JC: Thank you for that comment!

The problem with the double Stem blisters is: All ironed ones are with double Stem! So there was an overstock of bubble stem blisters for sure!!!

The second problem is: How can we be sure Toni didn't have single Stem with numbers in the beginning??

Wolff

 

[ace]

i do feel we are now getting collectors trying to undermined the findings on here and we are all getting lost with all the white noise going on

what i think should happen is these thread so just run and let it run

but there should be a privet thread where the people that are really doing great work can all talk privately about there thoughts and therys and do so in a place that they will not get killed when something comes to a dead end ?

the truth is we are going to get things right and then also get things wrong if we can explore this in a close thread and come to a final conclusion we can then publish it on the fact thread and if people what to argue it or ask us how we have come to this conclusion we all will be agreed and have that answer before its arid so we can give a 100% statement of fact that we have worked out ?

we so need more imagers of figures to still keep on coming in and this thread servers this perpus but we do now feel that we need to put together a team of experts in there feeld and work on this matter as its very siurse and i do think there is real proof out there from 20 years of these suspect figures being out there , we are being looked apone by many collectorsand we do look silly when things keep going off at a tangant , and i for one are gilty of this as you have just seen with the posts above

if we are to really get to the bottom of this we need to pick a small group of people that DOSE agree that there is something wrong with these figures and make this privet group , we can then all look at it with the eyes that there is something Wrong and we can all work togehter to find out what it is and how we prove it , we will have plenty of naysayers when we publish our findings so do not need naysayers in this small group it have to be just people that berleave there is somthing wrong , it dose not matter what it is thats wrong just soemthigns not right , then we can all dedcate time to looking for it , we will only go live with things that we can prove , and then the naysayers and sceptic can have there chance to pull it apart , that way we get to do real rescherch and maybe just many solve alot of this stuff with out going around in cercals like we are and going over old stuff as more and more new members come on to defent the carded figures that have and have lots of money into ?

i do feel now we have the people that do not want this to be true as they have a lot riding on this

and the then people that just want to know the truth

at the end of the day i berleave what i have experienced as i have lived it , we need to gather up real evidence with whats available to us and put the facts together in a privet place and then put our findings out there to be scrutinised

there are many of you that have helped so much to being it all to the surf is and we are still finding things out , but i know we are all waning now and getting tired of defending facts we know in some cases to be 100% true so guys please lets do this properly now for the sake of our sanity and all the collects out there ?

what do we think about this proposal ?

can the owners of this board help create a privet thread that is pass word protected fro this perpuss ?

wolf and Jason will you be the first to except this post ?

if you both agree i think you two should help pick the others that are to join you

i also think it would be good to contact respected members of the collection community that are not apart of this forum to join in on this , but i do feel they also have to be open to seeing that there is a fundamental issue with these figures to come on to the team , it will not help to have a naysayer in this group it will only slow down the findings and stop the process of investigating and eliminating throuys if we have to fight in there if there is even a issue at all . lets keep a foucus on looking for and finding proof that we can publish that serton figures have issues

i hope people can see that i am trying to help all collectors by putting this forward and i hope everyone can see that this is the right way forward for everyone ?

your thoughts

jason

 

[_Lee_]

Jesus,a few weeks out of the loop means ive got to read back 25 pages or so

JJ,email me buddy-about those photos and the other ideas i put across to you

 

[ace]

Craig Stevens believed the Boba Fetts were all rejects because of the bubbles not attaching. But then if they were all rejects cast aside who would set aside carded figures good enough to grade 90+.

hi just a little point the figures that are being graded that we are proven to come from Toni are beign graded at 90+

the figures that i bought from Arthur that i sold to Craig could not be graded at that level in any way , both craig and i will vouch for that , they were at best like the Hoth troopers on the best ironed cards

with the facts that came out at dave trees event both the hoth troopers and the fetts in my mind were with ironed bubles .

so they would not grade at 90+

just wanted to help clear that up

j

 

[mr_palitoy]

i do feel we are now getting collectors trying to undermined the findings on here and we are all getting lost with all the white noise going on

what i think should happen is these thread so just run and let it run

but there should be a privet thread where the people that are really doing great work can all talk privately about there thoughts and therys and do so in a place that they will not get killed when something comes to a dead end ?

the truth is we are going to get things right and then also get things wrong if we can explore this in a close thread and come to a final conclusion we can then publish it on the fact thread and if people what to argue it or ask us how we have come to this conclusion we all will be agreed and have that answer before its arid so we can give a 100% statement of fact that we have worked out ?

we so need more imagers of figures to still keep on coming in and this thread servers this perpus but we do now feel that we need to put together a team of experts in there feeld and work on this matter as its very siurse and i do think there is real proof out there from 20 years of these suspect figures being out there , we are being looked apone by many collectorsand we do look silly when things keep going off at a tangant , and i for one are gilty of this as you have just seen with the posts above

if we are to really get to the bottom of this we need to pick a small group of people that DOSE agree that there is something wrong with these figures and make this privet group , we can then all look at it with the eyes that there is something Wrong and we can all work togehter to find out what it is and how we prove it , we will have plenty of naysayers when we publish our findings so do not need naysayers in this small group it have to be just people that berleave there is somthing wrong , it dose not matter what it is thats wrong just soemthigns not right , then we can all dedcate time to looking for it , we will only go live with things that we can prove , and then the naysayers and sceptic can have there chance to pull it apart , that way we get to do real rescherch and maybe just many solve alot of this stuff with out going around in cercals like we are and going over old stuff as more and more new members come on to defent the carded figures that have and have lots of money into ?

i do feel now we have the people that do not want this to be true as they have a lot riding on this

and the then people that just want to know the truth

at the end of the day i berleave what i have experienced as i have lived it , we need to gather up real evidence with whats available to us and put the facts together in a privet place and then put our findings out there to be scrutinised

there are many of you that have helped so much to being it all to the surf is and we are still finding things out , but i know we are all waning now and getting tired of defending facts we know in some cases to be 100% true so guys please lets do this properly now for the sake of our sanity and all the collects out there ?

what do we think about this proposal ?

can the owners of this board help create a privet thread that is pass word protected fro this perpuss ?

wolf and Jason will you be the first to except this post ?

if you both agree i think you two should help pick the others that are to join you

i also think it would be good to contact respected members of the collection community that are not apart of this forum to join in on this , but i do feel they also have to be open to seeing that there is a fundamental issue with these figures to come on to the team , it will not help to have a naysayer in this group it will only slow down the findings and stop the process of investigating and eliminating throuys if we have to fight in there if there is even a issue at all . lets keep a foucus on looking for and finding proof that we can publish that serton figures have issues

i hope people can see that i am trying to help all collectors by putting this forward and i hope everyone can see that this is the right way forward for everyone ?

your thoughts

jason

Hi there Jason, there have been a few naysayers posting in the thread doubting all the conclusions we made weeks ago
with ebay accounts etc. Have been staying out of those debates as its not very productive to argue stuff round in
circles.

What goes on the thread edited by Joe with the summary is what's important, and what Toni should be judged on.

The forum does support closed groups, but that just creates a them and us feeling, and prevents people with new perspective
from joining in the discussion and adding new insight. So I think we are better off to continue as we are for now.

I think what's important is to find shop sold and toni examples of as many affected figures as we can, so any comparisons can
be made. Have tried to do that with as many of the main palitoy figures as I can. The German figures seem to have been
forgotten recently, maybe Wolfgang and the German forum should be driving efforts to better identify those.

I have updated my palitoy guide with the matrix of affected cards/figures, wolfgang should do the same on his german
guide now.

I still need to pass judgement on my own Tonis, have been avoiding doing that until I am as far up the learning curve as
I can get. I think that time has come.

AFA/UKG need to step up now. They are going to be the ones who will have to identify Tonis going forwards and they both
need cleanse their databases of Tonis they have graded.

cheers Jason

 

[finestcomics]

Craig Stevens believed the Boba Fetts were all rejects because of the bubbles not attaching. But then if they were all rejects cast aside who would set aside carded figures good enough to grade 90+.

hi just a little point the figures that are being graded that we are proven to come from Toni are beign graded at 90+
j

Not necessarily. The 45c Fett I got directly from Toni would not and should not grade a 90 in my opinion. There is a non-colour breaking impression on the front of the card, and a few scuffs. I'm not certain how they got there (deliberately put there to make the piece look somewhat worn or was used as a food tray at some point between the time I placed the order and it was sent to me), but based on the defects, I would say it would grade an 85.

 

[finestcomics]

BTW: Here is a video on the spectroscopy methods used by PCGS to detect foreign substances and alterations on coins. Cheesy "bark" theme used throughout, but it's pretty amazing to see the application of this technology in action.

[youtube]mA3nZeADTBg[/youtube]

 

[ace]

all good point but i think a group of experts in one place to talk this over anf bring all minds togehter and to freely think out the box with out any critisusum and with out fear of being sued remeber would be a good thing


also Toni him self will not know where we are at on this , you know everything we find out that he can remove evedence of in his hour he is doing off the back of this forum , i do not think it will halp him to much as most of the evedence is out there and he cannot get that back but i bet things we have picked up on he has tried to hid after knowing we also know now

i do think a privet think tank is esenchal

its nothing to do with them and us , we have to be sirues about this matter its 100.00s of 1000s we are talking about and its important and pronely the biggest con in the history of star wars ?

and its down to us to prove it and let real fans know , this is important guys ?

j

 

[ace]

Craig Stevens believed the Boba Fetts were all rejects because of the bubbles not attaching. But then if they were all rejects cast aside who would set aside carded figures good enough to grade 90+.

hi just a little point the figures that are being graded that we are proven to come from Toni are beign graded at 90+
j

Not necessarily. The 45c Fett I got directly from Toni would not and should not grade a 90 in my opinion. There is a non-colour breaking impression on the front of the card, and a few scuffs. I'm not certain how they got there (deliberately put there to make the piece look somewhat worn or was used as a food tray at some point between the time I placed the order and it was sent to me), but based on the defects, I would say it would grade an 85.

its ok mate but i think you missed the point of my post entirely ones i sold cannot be graded at 90+ SOME of the ones Toni sells can be thats the point.

jason

 

[spoons]

a private group is not a good idea IMO - this thread is fantastic for bouncing ideas around, so what if they reach dead ends?

 

[finestcomics]

hi just a little point the figures that are being graded that we are proven to come from Toni are beign graded at 90+
j

Not necessarily. The 45c Fett I got directly from Toni would not and should not grade a 90 in my opinion. There is a non-colour breaking impression on the front of the card, and a few scuffs. I'm not certain how they got there (deliberately put there to make the piece look somewhat worn or was used as a food tray at some point between the time I placed the order and it was sent to me), but based on the defects, I would say it would grade an 85.

its ok mate but i think you missed the point of my post entirely ones i sold cannot be graded at 90+ SOME of the ones Toni sells can be thats the point.

jason

It's not so much that I missed the point, but the logic is confusing. The theory is you both ended-up with rejects. In your opinion, the ones you had couldn't grade 90, but Toni's could. What I'm saying is that it's specious to conclude that all high-grade samples come from Toni alone as I'm sure he had some "lower grade" inventory. I've been a custodian of uncirculated inventory and there is always a 20-30% rate of attrition just be the mere fact that the stock had to be handled by someone at the factory at some point, ended-up at the top/bottom of a pile, was exposed to wear and tear from being stored in a bin or from packaging, etc., whereas the ones in the middle of the pile were of the best quality. A vintage SW toy comparable is that not all MOC's in a case come out perfect.

 

[tiefighterboy]

all good point but i think a group of experts in one place to talk this over anf bring all minds togehter and to freely think out the box with out any critisusum and with out fear of being sued remeber would be a good thing

So speculation, measurements and a few facts warrent others not worthy of making points, discussing and offering the opinions differing from the massess. :shock: Dont get me wrong, I also believe Toni is guilty, but the way you put the above, makes me think you belong on another forum....and that is my OPINION.

Nobody is getting sued for offering their view for or against and a differing opinion is not critisism. Nobody is a lawyer on this forum to my knowledge.....for that fact a packaging engineer either.

 

[Grant_C]

a private group is not a good idea IMO - this thread is fantastic for bouncing ideas around, so what if they reach dead ends?

Yeah- its so interesting learning all this new stuff.

 

[tiefighterboy]

a private group is not a good idea IMO - this thread is fantastic for bouncing ideas around, so what if they reach dead ends?

Yeah- its so interesting learning all this new stuff.

Grant you are an expert. :lol: :lol: :lol:

I also forgot to add...for those who would like...you can block certain members posts from your view, thus eliminating some of us vocal *******.....

 

[Grant_C]

a private group is not a good idea IMO - this thread is fantastic for bouncing ideas around, so what if they reach dead ends?

Yeah- its so interesting learning all this new stuff.

Grant you are an expert. :lol: :lol: :lol:

I am?

Must update that CV.

(Read the following as a Gregorian chant)

The only way you will get to the end is by collectively taking your case to the authorities at the same time. Including Internationally. They are the only ones who have the power of the force who can mind trick the alleged and discover the truth.....

Unless this happens, you will get more annoyed by discussion circles in threads......

Meow.

 

[tiefighterboy]

So true...I have tried to stay out of this thread, but calling each other names and now a request for some top secret expert thread...well that wound me up a bit.

 

[jay4]

by the way Jay actually picking on someone's disability was that really a good place to go mate ? i mean dose that really help you make your point ? wow that was pretty low am i going to expect more like that from you to win your points ?



youv gotta be kidding me its not a game im not in it for points ive been civil tongued all along.and because you felt brave enough behind your screen you decided call ME slow and tell me you meant it ? PUBLICLY and you expected me to take that ? :lol:
erm i think not . so i give you a little backfire inturn calling you slow back and im the bad guy :? :roll:
your ridicluous:lol: :lol: A little tip for you maybe you shouldnt dish out the name calling if cant take it back and a man your age should know that :wink: and its quite clear youv tried to defend yourself and wrote enough rants here & none of it has achieved anything other than showing me EXACTLY why people dislike you :wink: now move along!
and stop your spamming with your biblicaly sized nonsensical pointless public rants towards me which have no baring on whats going here , AGAIN and for the last time if you feel the need to have the last word towards me again pm me to do that
or wait until comic con when you can call me slow to my face :twisted:

 

[jambobbyb]

I too think Toni is guilty of something but here we are seven weeks later and still no one seems to have the foggiest idea what that something was or is or now even if it has happened. i cant see why Toni would allow his reputation, one he has built up for a number of years be smashed to pieces with out a single word by someone he openly admits he doesnt like. I would happily listen to him if he were to come on here and discuss his point but he wont he prefers to make hi sE-bay accounts private and remove the stock he has remaining from his site abd his "shop" implicating him in this mess which leads me to believe something is afoot.

 

[jay4]

I too think Toni is guilty of something but here we are seven weeks later and still no one seems to have the foggiest idea what that something was or is or now even if it has happened. i cant see why Toni would allow his reputation, one he has built up for a number of years be smashed to pieces with out a single word by someone he openly admits he doesnt like. I would happily listen to him if he were to come on here and discuss his point but he wont he prefers to make hi sE-bay accounts private and remove the stock he has remaining from his site abd his "shop" implicating him in this mess which leads me to believe something is afoot.

i think everyones agreed toni is guilty of something , i dont think theres any doubt on that , its just to what degree thats to be sussed

 

[jambobbyb]

But what? thats my point we are never going to know unless either we can find out a way to identify something different about these cards (which we catn in most cases) or Toni comes out and says i did X Y or Z (which he wont) or some other piece of information comes to light. (Which is unlikely given the time that has passed)

 

[jay4]

But what? thats my point we are never going to know unless either we can find out a way to identify something different about these cards (which we catn in most cases) or Toni comes out and says i did X Y or Z (which he wont) or some other piece of information comes to light. (Which is unlikely given the time that has passed)

at least it has been delved into and looked at from most angles, card and bubble wise from all the blokes in the know , and allthough tho most of it has been proved wrong since or pointless at least those things have been looked at and scrutinised which means those most of those things can now be ellimanted from doubt and can be left behind and people can focus on new ways of identification that havent been scrutinised yet , it never was gonna be a quik process this and i think a few months down the line from now and the ellimination process goes on .in time things will become clearer , we just have to put a bit of faith in the smart lads and guys in the know on here and elsewhere to do so .and with the amount of work and effort thats gone on in just the last 7 weeks alone which is incredible really things have allready moved fast in my eyes . just takes time , bare in mind the police are still trying to solve cases after 20 or 30 years that are less complicated than this. i just feel for all the collectors who have put serious money into this and are in limbo .but its those same guys that will be working behind the scenes , ive no doubt theres people out there have been working on this from the start that havent even commented anywhere yet and wont until they have something. with the huge money involved here there will be collectors out there in this category of thinking

 

[finestcomics]

My opinion on this is quite simple actually. Having watched this sort of thing play out more times than I'd care to admit in other hobbies, the best possible outcome we can see from this is we disable the opportunity for this scheme to continue. Let's not dwell on the granularity and minutia of details that are lacking to stage a crater-sized smackdown that forever buries Toni, but rather, let's revisit what's been achieved to this end thus far.

First, we have frozen the ability for these items to be certified. We have also had Toni banned from both graders. This means even if people get the idea to do things like u-grade, or use graders as a way to insulate themselves from being held responsible, we are dealing only with the items that got through before AFA/UKG responded.

The reason for AFA/UKG's response falls squarely on the evidence that has come forward, and that Toni hasn't done anything to refute it. Until these allegations are proven otherwise untrue by him or with undeniable proof that his MOC's are legit, this "banning" of a rogue dealer/hobbyman should serve as a billboard-sized notice to Toni and anyone who gets the itch to try the same that the court of public opinion has decided, that there are real-life consequences (namely his name is mud) and the burden of proof rests entirely on him to prove us wrong.

All the great research and detective work is just going to help us gain more ground down the road to possibly match-up the public ruling laterally with a legal case. To this, I applaud and commend all those who have stepped-up and continued to participate in these endeavours.

 

[lee gray]

My opinion on this is quite simple actually. Having watched this sort of thing play out more times than I'd care to admit in other hobbies, the best possible outcome we can see from this is we disable the opportunity for this scheme to continue. Let's not dwell on the granularity and minutia of details that are lacking to stage a crater-sized smackdown that forever buries Toni, but rather, let's revisit what's been achieved to this end thus far.

First, we have frozen the ability for these items to be certified. We have also had Toni banned from both graders. This means even if people get the idea to do things like u-grade, or use graders as a way to insulate themselves from being held responsible, we are dealing only with the items that got through before AFA/UKG responded.

The reason for AFA/UKG's response falls squarely on the evidence that has come forward, and that Toni hasn't done anything to refute it. Until these allegations are proven otherwise untrue by him or with undeniable proof that his MOC's are legit, this "banning" of a rogue dealer/hobbyman should serve as a billboard-sized notice to Toni and anyone who gets the itch to try the same that the court of public opinion has decided, that there are real-life consequences (namely his name is mud) and the burden of proof rests entirely on him to prove us wrong.

All the great research and detective work is just going to help us gain more ground down the road to possibly match-up the public ruling laterally with a legal case. To this, I applaud and commend all those who have stepped-up and continued to participate in these endeavours.

lol at bold was first word i saw after the slanging match.

What if Toni never got any of these cardbacks like he first said, what if all his items are genuine................but then hang on a minute if that was the case he would have come out fighting, he has had his credibility totally destroyed and does nothing,......thats not the sign of an innocent man.