Resealed figure discovery debate - G.Kurtz Palitoy VC Jawa.

[wbobafett]

Okay...Dimples can be okay now, but I wouldn't say its impossible Toni could have found and used the same ones?? It looks more like sth added while producing the blister not while sealing the blister to the card.


Anyway...I have another question! I searched now for over an hour and browses all pictures that can be found I guess.

HAS ANYONE EVER SEEN A SINGLE STEM BLISTER SEALED BELOW THE STEM???

I couldn't found one proof for that! Anyone else??

I find it very odd, that all single stem loose cradbacks from Palitoy have an "open" seal below the stem...but look at this Sormtrooper....its definatley sealed in that place!!! :shock:

 

[spoons]

Hi guys,

I've just joined the forum, but have been viewing for a few years now. Just a quick introduction, I've been collecting Star Wars MOC figures since 1985, when I started buying them up from shops as a kid on the cheap, so have a pretty well trained eye for what's legit and what's not. Like everyone else, I'm very alarmed at this latest development which has prompted me to post. I've also bought and sold on ebay, with the same username so may have dealt with some of you!

Anyway, I've got 7 Palitoy figures in my collection, all AFA graded which fit into the affected category. 4 of these I bought as a kid from shop clearance between 1985 and 1990, so the following pics will hopefully help others match theirs as legit. 2 I bought from a guy ex-ebay (so in my questionable pile), and 1 (Luke Hoth) I bought from ToyToni, or 'Marsking' 2 years ago (so very questionable). The first is Hoth Han 65-D, which I hope verifies 'Ironfists' hoth han posting as being fully legit:

*Note the 'twin stem' die seal at the bottom, and note my bad shop sticker removal many a year ago!

Next is my AT AT Commander 65-D. The bubble has very faintly yellowed. The bubble is sealed fully edge to edge, except for the top portion. Not sure if the pics show it but there is some very subtle 'waffling' on the seal only in the bottom left section, over the '1983'.

Ben Kenobi (again had a sticker removed top right, note the embossed cross which was pen on a sticker reducing the price)

*What I have observed from all these figures is that they are generally sealed fully edge to edge. Also which I've not seen mentioned before is a slight raising/breaking of the cardback colour on the right hand inside edge of the bubble - if you're unsure what I mean i'll try to take better pictures.

The next 3 I would appreciate others' advice on:

AT AT DRIVER: ESB 45 Back, has the waffling pattern, and a subtle embossed 03 in the bottom right of the seal:

LUKE BESPIN: 45 back C, not sealed edge to edge, but embossed on the back.

LUKE HOTH: 65 back A, bought from 'Marsking' on ebay, sealed edge to edge, mint figure, embossing on back.

Any help with the above 3 much appreciated. And just to reiterate, has anyone else noticed the colour 'lift' on the right hand inside edge of their known legit figures?

Cheers, Geoff.

Welcome Geoff - and yes you do see the colour lift on legit bubbles. The bubbles tend to contract a little taking the card back image with them, if that is what you mean?

As to your figures above, the ESB ATAT driver is definitely legit with the numbered bubble and lined waffle

Your ROTJ figs look good too - do both Lukes have the unsealed gap at the base?

Okay...Dimples can be okay now, but I wouldn't say its impossible Toni could have found and used the same ones?? It looks more like sth added while producing the blister not while sealing the blister to the card.


Anyway...I have another question! I searched now for over an hour and browses all pictures that can be found I guess.

HAS ANYONE EVER SEEN A SINGLE STEM BLISTER SEALED BELOW THE STEM???

I couldn't found one proof for that! Anyone else??

I find it very odd, that all single stem loose cradbacks from Palitoy have an "open" seal below the stem...but look at this Sormtrooper....its definatley sealed in that place!!! :shock:

I think I do Wollf - I'll have a look when I get home, either way if we have dimpled bubbles, tri bubbles and more on the same cardbacks there must be a variety of seals too.

I'm pretty much of the conclusion that this problem is no-where near the scale we all thought

 

[Grant_C]

I'm pretty much of the conclusion that this problem is no-where near the scale we all thought

Agreed.

 

[Starzone]

Man there sure are some funky looking bubbles in this thread. This whole thread just goes round and round in circles

Even after all the evidence and Tonis reluctance to comment/clarify people are still willing to find hope in the figures he sold.

I have a few of these in my collection, they now mean nothing to me.

 

[geoffbroccoli]

Hi Spoons,
Yes, the colour lift as you describe is just the thing I meant. When you say 'gap' on the Lukes Hoth & Bespin, do you mean gap in the sealing (no, they are fully sealed all round to the card) or gap to the bottom of the card from the edge of the bubble seal (yes, about 3mm for the Luke Hoth, 1 1/2mm for the Luke Bespin).
Geoff.

 

[RKW1138]

How big is the problem - Impossible to say.

The only thing we can conclude is that Toni's stock looks just as convincing as other examples not purchased from Toni.
I think we have demonstrated all the different blister types are genuine. This is not surprising since all the components are supposed to be from genuine stock. Our only hope was to see if the person had made a mistake by using repro blisters, wrong type of blisters or figure etc.

Anyone got an old Palitoy C-3PO?

 

[lee gray]

SPOONS thats exactly why continuous claims of thats a 100% a fake TT should not be banded about by anyone in regards to what they deem to be flaws with such certainty and assurity :wink:

Amen Brother

Although the Toni silence is the most worrying aspect in all of this as defo seems like he has sealed them himself but some may be genuine that are being called his.

 

[mr_palitoy]

How big is the problem - Impossible to say.

The only thing we can conclude is that Toni's stock looks just as convincing as other examples not purchased from Toni.
I think we have demonstrated all the different blister types are genuine. This is not surprising since all the components are supposed to be from genuine stock. Our only hope was to see if the person had made a mistake by using repro blisters, wrong type of blisters or figure etc.

Anyone got an old Palitoy C-3PO?

Think I have found an example of a genuine one with mouse zoom on ebay:-

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/C-3PO-w-Removable-Limbs-Star-Wars-ROTJ-Palitoy-1983-65A-Back-/121106295021?pt=US_Action_Figures&hash=item1c327f68ed

There is no red dot tell on this card and the card is worn and torn, indicating it is not Tonis stock. Note that the bubble on this card is narrower
than the bubble used by Toni.

Here is Toni, AFA 90, red dot with the wider bubble with mouse zoom on ebay:-

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Star-Wars-Vintage-Graded-ROTJ-AFA-90-C-3PO-Removable-Limbs-65-Back-A-Palitoy-/130948909470?pt=US_Action_Figures&hash=item1e7d29c99e&nma=true&si=egj6dM89W5TAP9pOJxr2phxFcMI%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

So again, Toni seems to be using wider bubbles than the real mccoy.

Also, looks like Toni's cards all have a perforated punch, and the real one doesnt for this figure/cardback.

cheers Jason

 

[lee gray]

SPOONS thats exactly why continuous claims of thats a 100% a fake TT should not be banded about by anyone in regards to what they deem to be flaws with such certainty and assurity :wink:
the only ones anyone is 100% DEFFO certain of as of now are those with iron marks and those dont even stem from TT but from JJ .
and mr.palitoy maybe im missing something but. ive many genuine shop bought palitoy and kenner cards with little air pockets under the seal so to insist thats another deffinate tell tale of tt cards seems a bit rash to say the least

The iron marked ones from JJ came from Arthur Bailey. I think it is likely that AB had a go at carding some of the figures himself, made a really bad job of it (see
upside down bubble hothtroppers etc) and then gave up and sold some of those to JJ and everything else on to Toy Toni.

I also have 4 used cardbacks purchased directly from Toni, all with iron marks and bubble imprints showing badly or wonkily attached bubbles that had fallen off.

cheers Jason

lol yeah i bet he thought **** this **** i will offload them to someone else

 

[wbobafett]

Do we know already of ironed DSD???

I found one here:
http://forum.rebelscum.com/t1024824/#post17477867

:shock: :shock:

How many charcters do we have know ironed??

- Boba Fett
- Snowtrooper
- C-3PO
- DSD
- Luke (Farmboy)
- Dengar
- Han Solo (original)

...more??

 

[panastur]

Think I have found an example of a genuine one with mouse zoom on ebay:-

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/C-3PO-w-Removable-Limbs-Star-Wars-ROTJ-Palitoy-1983-65A-Back-/121106295021?pt=US_Action_Figures&hash=item1c327f68ed

There is no red dot tell on this card and the card is worn and torn, indicating it is not Tonis stock. Note that the bubble on this card is narrower
than the bubble used by Toni.

Here is Toni, AFA 90, red dot with the wider bubble with mouse zoom on ebay:-

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Star-Wars-Vintage-Graded-ROTJ-AFA-90-C-3PO-Removable-Limbs-65-Back-A-Palitoy-/130948909470?pt=US_Action_Figures&hash=item1e7d29c99e&nma=true&si=egj6dM89W5TAP9pOJxr2phxFcMI%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

So again, Toni seems to be using wider bubbles than the real mccoy.

Also, looks like Toni's cards all have a perforated punch, and the real one doesnt for this figure/cardback.

cheers Jason

Hey Jason,

Look where the bubble is positioned in the genuine one: The top of the bubble is just below "REMOVABLE" word and almost on the left hand edge... On Toni's example, the bubble top cross the "ARMS, LEGS" words and more centered... :?:

Good find Jason

JC

 

[mr_palitoy]

Think I have found an example of a genuine one with mouse zoom on ebay:-

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/C-3PO-w-Removable-Limbs-Star-Wars-ROTJ-Palitoy-1983-65A-Back-/121106295021?pt=US_Action_Figures&hash=item1c327f68ed

There is no red dot tell on this card and the card is worn and torn, indicating it is not Tonis stock. Note that the bubble on this card is narrower
than the bubble used by Toni.

Here is Toni, AFA 90, red dot with the wider bubble with mouse zoom on ebay:-

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Star-Wars-Vintage-Graded-ROTJ-AFA-90-C-3PO-Removable-Limbs-65-Back-A-Palitoy-/130948909470?pt=US_Action_Figures&hash=item1e7d29c99e&nma=true&si=egj6dM89W5TAP9pOJxr2phxFcMI%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

So again, Toni seems to be using wider bubbles than the real mccoy.

Also, looks like Toni's cards all have a perforated punch, and the real one doesnt for this figure/cardback.

cheers Jason

Hey Jason,

Look where the bubble is positioned in the genuine one: The top of the bubble is just below "REMOVABLE" word and almost on the left hand edge... On Toni's example, the bubble top cross the "ARMS, LEGS" words and more centered... :?:

Good find Jason

JC

Dont think you can read anything into bubble position up and down the card, my AFA 90 Toni matches the real one in terms of that placement:-

Jason

 

[Grant_C]

Maybe a Ugrade? :?

Ok- Let me know if you want more photos of details.

R5-D4
ROTJ Palitoy 45 Back
Unique Bubble
Cannot be traced back to Toytoni
Not on List
No indentation on bubble

 

[mr_palitoy]

Do we know already of ironed DSD???

I found one here:
http://forum.rebelscum.com/t1024824/#post17477867

:shock: :shock:

How many charcters do we have know ironed??

- Boba Fett
- Snowtrooper
- C-3PO
- DSD
- Luke (Farmboy)
- Dengar
- Han Solo (original)

...more??

I have iron marks on a General Mills Dengar cardback I bought from Michelfromhell.

I also have 4 palitoy used cardbacks bought directly from Toni with iron marks:-

65 rotj back vader
45 rotj Luke bespin
45 rotj boba fett
45 esb bossk

cheers Jason

 

[Grant_C]

Stormtrooper
ROTJ Palitoy 65 Back
No Stem Bubble
Can be traced back to Toytoni (purchased NOv '96)
On List
No indentation on bubble
Bubble is off the card

 

[Grant_C]

Boba Fett
ROTJ Palitoy 45 Back
Twin Stem Bubble
Can be traced back to Toytoni (purchased NOv '96)
On List
No indentation on bubble

 

[panastur]

Do we know already of ironed DSD???

I found one here:
http://forum.rebelscum.com/t1024824/#post17477867

:shock: :shock:

How many charcters do we have know ironed??

- Boba Fett
- Snowtrooper
- C-3PO
- DSD
- Luke (Farmboy)
- Dengar
- Han Solo (original)

...more??

Yes, ROJ1 "Lobot" 45 back.... :wink:

http://www.collection-starwars.com/photos/Fansolo_44819_c21d1fa35fa2dc030efad6a240572cd5.JPG

Found on the net _ Collection of FANSOLO...

JC

 

[Grant_C]

Luke Bespin
ROTJ Palitoy 45 Back
Twin Stem Bubble
Can be traced back to Toytoni (purchased NOv '96)
On List
No indentation on bubble

 

[panastur]

...Also, looks like Toni's cards all have a perforated punch, and the real one doesnt for this figure/cardback.

cheers Jason

As you said, looks like incriminated C-3PO RL from Toni are all "ROJ2" unpunched card (dot-cut)....

JC

 

[mr_palitoy]

Stormtrooper
ROTJ Palitoy 65 Back
No Stem Bubble
Can be traced back to Toytoni (purchased NOv '96)
On List
No indentation on bubble
Bubble is off the card

Not on the list.

cheers Jason

 

[Grant_C]

TIE Pilot
ESB Palitoy 45 Back
Twin Stem Bubble
Can be traced back to Toytoni (purchased by Delboy)
On List
indentation on bubble
Odd place for Gun. Stuck next to head- Surly a scam would take more care?

 

[Grant_C]

Leia Hoth
ROTJ Palitoy 45 Back
Twin Stem Bubble (Same as TFP except no indentation)
Cannot be traced back to Toytoni (Looks like a shop)
On List
No indentation on bubble

 

[spoons]

Hi Spoons,
Yes, the colour lift as you describe is just the thing I meant. When you say 'gap' on the Lukes Hoth & Bespin, do you mean gap in the sealing (no, they are fully sealed all round to the card) or gap to the bottom of the card from the edge of the bubble seal (yes, about 3mm for the Luke Hoth, 1 1/2mm for the Luke Bespin).
Geoff.

I did mean the gap in the sealing - but just because it isn't there doesn't mean the card is fake

Based on Jason's latest findings it seems that wider bubbles on ROTJ cards are the latest tell, and yours all seem narrower

 

[spoons]

SPOONS thats exactly why continuous claims of thats a 100% a fake TT should not be banded about by anyone in regards to what they deem to be flaws with such certainty and assurity :wink:

Amen Brother

Although the Toni silence is the most worrying aspect in all of this as defo seems like he has sealed them himself but some may be genuine that are being called his.

I don't disagree in the slightest - but appreciate my ebay sale didn't look that way

 

[Grant_C]

AT-AT Commander
ROTJ Palitoy 65 Back
No Stem Bubble
Cannot be traced back to Toytoni (Bought as part of a collection of C9 random MOCs)
On List
No indentation on bubble

 

[mr_palitoy]

Leia Hoth
ROTJ Palitoy 45 Back
Twin Stem Bubble (Same as TFP except no indentation)
Cannot be traced back to Toytoni (Looks like a shop)
On List
No indentation on bubble

Leia Hoth not on list.

cheers Jason

 

[Doomseeker]

Cunting, buggery, bollocking hell........ Finally got round to getting my MOCs down from the loft and checked My Hoth Stormtrooper.......Iron marks all over the bloody thing......

Can post pics if people want to add this to the growing list of evidence. Mine was bought from Memorabilia about 12 years ago...no idea who I bought it from though.

 

[Grant_C]

Do it mate- might as well have as much info as possible.

 

[James Simmonds]

I found a ROTJ Palitoy Hoth Stormtrooper cardback in my collection over the weekend that has a Boots price sticker on it. Would a scan of it be of any use to the discussion as a comparison to the TT ones?

James.

 

[jay4]

OR toni . arthur & jason :lol: which is plausable

i have to respond to this.

jay4 believe whatever you want but please do not call me crocked or a lier as i am nether, i have given a full statement on all this pages back and its gradually coming out and being proven that what i say happened did in fact happn.

i am on here talking to everyone and i have been up front and very clear on EVER point i have brought up and talked about.

whenever i have said ANYTHING i have delivered proof of what i have said in one form or another, i have been cross examined by over 30 people now and have proven my side of what i say happened many times now.

its very easy to just say whatever comes into your mind and repeat it on here , but i am a real person so please do not keep on accusing me of something i have not done, if you want to ask me something i am more than happy to help you or anyone with info i may have.

you may read things from jealous people from my past about me ?, but nothing of what any of them may have said is true in anyway whatsoever, i have not lived a dishonest life and i am a decent person.

so jay4 please the rumour mongering needs to stop and if anyone wants to actually ask me what the truth is i am more than happy to tell it as it is.

jay4 i am not having a go at you in anyway and i hope you understand that , but what you said about me was offensive and it needed to be cleared up, i do not hold a grudge in anyway to anyone so i hope we can move on, and all work together to try to get a definitive list of the affected figures for everyones sake .

yours

Jason

i wasnt going to reply jason but i thought i should explain,
1stly i didnt call you a liar or crooked i would never clearly pipe up & say that publicly about anyone without hard evidence , EVER! :wink: which is why i IMPLIED it may have been the case in that instant and i can assure you im not the only one who has thought it .:wink: and as i also said i can and will only judge people on the past reputation they have given themselfs and from what i have heard and read written by others here and elsewhere sadly your reputation more than precedes you and not in too a good way so im sorry if your offended about any doubt as to ironed hoth troopers etc i may have but it stems from the bed you made yourself , i do apologise if im wrong but im sure you understand why people could and would have the right to doubt you