Resealed figure discovery debate - G.Kurtz Palitoy VC Jawa.

[mr_palitoy]

hi Joe did you say you have put up a new thread ?

if you are going to i do think we need to run the fest post by at least a few of us just so its correct we have all come a very long way and we do not want to get it wrong or saying in a way that its not clear, there is way to much confusion already .

that first post will go viral with all card collectors , i am happy to read it before it is put up , Jason are you agreed we need a clear post in a new thread ?

things are still moving very fast on here still

jason

I've just taken a look at Joe's new thread. Looks great, I think having Joe pull out posts like that will help with people looking for an executive summary.

cheers Jason

 

[PIGCITY]

I trust Joe as a very level headed, long standing unbiased member and this should be left to him to collate all relevant info. This is confusing enough as is

 

[galactables]

Ok guys. I have been watching this thread with interest and thought it was time I added my 2 cents to all this:

I have been collecting Star Wars (as an adult) since around 1992. I bought lots of stuff via mail order from the likes of Wendy Wandsworth, Terry and Monica Deegan, etc. I joined the SW Appreciation Society (run by a certain Stephen Nelmes). I remember some of the Rotj Palitoys around then and some (esp hoth stormtrooper) had shabbily applied blisters, and even remains of glue over the card. I still believe that these were simply the last of the last to get knocked out by Palitoy. Sure, look at many of the tri miscards?!

I have been buying carded figures from Toni for a long time. I was always well chuffed with the quality. Toni knew what I wanted, and always charged me top prices, cos he said he could get them graded himself, and make more money.
I have traded loose u grades with Toni, mostly for carded Rotj hoth troopers and c-3po's. I traded some tie pilots, bossk, stormtroopers, at at drivers. I knew Toni had lots of carded troopers and c-3po's and thought it was just handier for him to shift some loose u grades of popular characters and also offload some of his inventory of those 2 carded figures.I did joke with some good collecting friends that Toni must be making these himself, but really couldn't believe that cards could be reproduced (and still don't think they can) to the exact type of the 80's. It's only when JJ said about 25000 card backs being around, that I started to seriously wonder?... 

Ed raised a good point about Toni only selling hoth troopers, c-3po, luke Bespin on eBay. I think he sold bossk Palitoys too. I've handled loads of his cards and if he's been 'at it' for all these years then it's been a master stroke. I personally do not think that all his Palitoys and Germans are 'Toni-Tooled'. Do I think some are? It's quite possible. I really don't know what to think anymore. I always had a good business relationship with him. I'm not out to drag his name through the mud. I've a lot of money in his stuff and this is quite worrying. I contacted Toni, and this was his reply:

From: "toni" <[email protected]>
Date: 15 December 2013 16:24:51 GMT
To: "Robbie Mullan" <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Palitoy/ GM
Reply-To: "toni" <[email protected]>
hi no i havent been sealing figures. As you know youve had lots of carded stuff off me with which you have been satisfied and most of it seems to have gone for grading with out any issues and for sale on ebay by you . thanks
--------------------------------------------------
From: "Robbie Mullan" <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, December 14, 2013 2:23 PM
To: "Toni Emchowicz" <[email protected]>
Subject: Palitoy/ GM
Toni
What is going on here?
Have you been sealing these yourself?
Please advise.
Robbie.

 

[itfciain]

Robbie - were most of the graded loose figure that you sold/traded with Toni the ones that have been highlighted in this thread ? Any ideas on quantities ?

 

[Caswellbot]

Robbie - were most of the graded loose figure that you sold/traded with Toni the ones that have been highlighted in this thread ? Any ideas on quantities ?

Looks like it Iain. He says " I traded some tie pilots, bossk, stormtroopers, at at drivers"

 

[galactables]

Robbie - were most of the graded loose figure that you sold/traded with Toni the ones that have been highlighted in this thread ? Any ideas on quantities ?

Yes. Perhaps 50+?

 

[Caswellbot]

Is that of each Robbie or all together?

 

[galactables]

Is that of each Robbie or all together?

That's altogether. No smoking gun. I don't believe there is a smoking gun, nor ever will be. There's gonna be speculation, and lots of it....

 

[itfciain]

Robbie - were most of the graded loose figure that you sold/traded with Toni the ones that have been highlighted in this thread ? Any ideas on quantities ?

Looks like it Iain. He says " I traded some tie pilots, bossk, stormtroopers, at at drivers"

Yes, I should have said, were they really the only figures that you traded - i.e. no last 17 or first 12

 

[galactables]

Robbie - were most of the graded loose figure that you sold/traded with Toni the ones that have been highlighted in this thread ? Any ideas on quantities ?

Looks like it Iain. He says " I traded some tie pilots, bossk, stormtroopers, at at drivers"

Yes, I should have said, were they really the only figures that you traded - i.e. no last 17 or first 12

Never any last 17. I think I traded him one luke farmboy. As they are quite expensive as U85, surely he'd have been better off just buying mint one's on eBay.

I'm still finding it very hard to accept all this. I just can't believe this is wide scale fraud. I always thought of Toni as a decent bloke. Maybe he has been chancing his arm with some?.. But everything?... The mind boggles.

 

[jedisearcher]

Regarding Lee Grays point about a purple spot near Chewbacca on the 65 cardback. I don't think this links it to Toni. I had cards that were from childhood collections that had the same mark on the back. There doesn't appear to be any pattern on which this spot appears. It's definitely on cards that weren't from Toni and had price stickers on. Ill look at pictures later and try to figure out if there is a pattern to it. .

I've found the red dot on a Palitoy 45 Luke Bespin and a 45 Fett. The Fett was bought directly from Toni, the Luke came from Vectis which may or may not be from Toni.

I've also noticed a mark that could very well be the crescent/tweezer indent on the TT Fett, although it's on the very tip of the edge so it's bitchin difficult to see properly. I'd only found the crescent on double stems, but this is one of the big no stem palitoy bubbles.

Chris

 

[søren]

Just one thing...

I keep seeing these melted seals and thinking 'I have an ESB Kenner Hoth Han like that'. Has no-one else got Kenner cards with melted seals? Pretty sure it's got the waffle pattern and everything but part of the seal is quite badly melted.

It's just that maybe the melt isn't proof of dodgy 90's sealing processes

Palitoy did sell / use kenner cards . I have always been thinking . Why send a hole moc from the US to the UK . If they could just send the cardbacks .

( why they did it in the first place i don't know . But maybe running out of carbacks or some kind of hold up in the printing house etc. made them do it .
Or Palitoy where just not keeping up with production )

You can see the card here , a ESB card with Acbar stiker offer . On that it has a palitoy offer and on top of that it was send to denmark and sold here :

and the back here :

I this album you can see some other Kenner cards with palitoy stickers on them . So the idea that some Kenner cards where left over at the plant and Tony got them is not that far out imho .

http://s222.photobucket.com/user/sorenarndal/library/palitoy%20cardbacks?sort=3&page=1

 

[Richard_H]

Did palitoy actually print the cardbacks or order them from a printing firm? If they were ordered in and the printer was delayed then why not use kenner ones?

 

[Caswellbot]

Looks like it Iain. He says " I traded some tie pilots, bossk, stormtroopers, at at drivers"[/quote]

Yes, I should have said, were they really the only figures that you traded - i.e. no last 17 or first 12[/quote]
Never any last 17. I think I traded him one luke farmboy. As they are quite expensive as U85, surely he'd have been better off just buying mint one's on eBay.

I'm still finding it very hard to accept all this. I just can't believe this is wide scale fraud. I always thought of Toni as a decent bloke. Maybe he has been chancing his arm with some?.. But everything?... The mind boggles.[/quote]

Thanks Robbie. That's undertandable. Over what length of time were these 50+ u grade figures bought?

 

[galactables]

Looks like it Iain. He says " I traded some tie pilots, bossk, stormtroopers, at at drivers"

Yes, I should have said, were they really the only figures that you traded - i.e. no last 17 or first 12[/quote]
Never any last 17. I think I traded him one luke farmboy. As they are quite expensive as U85, surely he'd have been better off just buying mint one's on eBay.

I'm still finding it very hard to accept all this. I just can't believe this is wide scale fraud. I always thought of Toni as a decent bloke. Maybe he has been chancing his arm with some?.. But everything?... The mind boggles.[/quote]

Thanks Robbie. That's undertandable. Over what length of time were these 50+ u grade figures bought?[/quote]
About 2 years?
One striking observation over the years: All the non Toni Palitoys that I have seen have had a more brittle, yellowed or prone to yellowing bubble. Toni's twin stems are so strong and clear.

 

[Lee77]

Thanks Iain and Chris. I'm ok cheers

I get that the cards shown at FF4 were badly sealed in the 90s but I don't get the relation of them to Toni. If it turns out he's been smart enough to do this for years, he's hardly gonna let ones that he's practiced with get out in to the open. Why does someone with a 'chequered' past keep these for all this time? Maybe I'm being cynical, but we've got someone who joined Swf a couple of weeks back, who admitted selling resealed or put together mocs from the 90's, now seeing the error of his ways and coming clean?
If billy boy came back, apologised and then dropped a bombshell such as Mr X has been selling re taped baggies for years, what would the outcome be?

Admittedly, its looking more and more likely that Toni has been making mocs to order, but if JJ really gave a toss, he could have let this be known years ago.

Going off of Joes feedback list and the figures Robbie traded with Toni, these are the exact same mocs that Toni has lots of. An almost limitless supply.

I guess the next step is to figure out exactly which figure/card combos are affected and go from there.
Spreadsheet anyone!

 

[Caswellbot]

That's fair comment lee and we are trying to work out exactly where they did come from. However, why would Jason bring them in the first place? If he had anything to do with them bring sealed that would be one foolhardy move.

Regardless of that, I think its clear to see that there is a lot of facts surrounding Toni's dealings that really don't stack up.

 

[kraftdermacht]

Here are Toni's GM i have from the early 2000s:

These are not from Toni:

The cards to check (sw/esb/rotj/tri):

Wolfgang

 

[kraftdermacht]

Mattias, I quickly found four cards with the pink spot a Chewie's arm (not sure if this has cleared up already) but from the 3 rotj Fett cards I have none is this type:

Wolfgang

 

[kraftdermacht]

Please check your Luke Farmboy! This is also a PBP (late) figure! I never saw one on a German card before! :O

Hi. My luck I did not buy this:

I noticed that the figure is cracked inside the bubble! I have to check who the seller was and what the history of this is.

Wolfgang

 

[kraftdermacht]

More observations to come:

 

[kraftdermacht]

Bubble too small?!

This one is good?!

Updates tomorrow evening. Finish for tonight.

Wolfgang

 

[jimbody1]

I'm sure ive seen that luke before is it not a pbp figure with a Kenner bubble and on a palitoy card?

 

[itfciain]

I'm sure ive seen that luke before is it not a pbp figure with a Kenner bubble and on a palitoy card?

I think Grant has a card like that

 

[spoons]

These are not from Toni:

Wolfgang

Hi Wolfgang, these are potentially the most useful items in this thread. Do any of the bubbles have the crescent shape or dimpled pin-sized holes?

 

[M4K3R1]

Thanks Iain and Chris. I'm ok cheers

I get that the cards shown at FF4 were badly sealed in the 90s but I don't get the relation of them to Toni. If it turns out he's been smart enough to do this for years, he's hardly gonna let ones that he's practiced with get out in to the open. Why does someone with a 'chequered' past keep these for all this time? Maybe I'm being cynical, but we've got someone who joined Swf a couple of weeks back, who admitted selling resealed or put together mocs from the 90's, now seeing the error of his ways and coming clean?

Most definatelly, this is exactlly what seems to be getting overlooked.
And quite shockinglly...accepted.

 

[Richard_H]

From what I know about Jason he seems to be a hoarder. I'm not surprised that he has kept these at all.

 

[lee gray]

Hit front page of RS news now even though its still not been proven

http://www.rebelscum.com/story/front/eBay_Today_1389_A_Warning_About_Well_Done_Fake_Palitoy_General_Mills_Carded_Figures_155841.asp

 

[Caswellbot]

That seems pretty irresponsible to me at this juncture.

 

[M4K3R1]

Yes a hoarder, but why would you hold on to the absolute worst ones, with telling signs they are fake,
and sell off hundreds of others.