Resealed figure discovery debate - G.Kurtz Palitoy VC Jawa.

[Grant_C]

I can understand that it looks like there are biased views and the discourse is a little foggy at times.

I am more than happy to discuss stuff offline. Please send us a PM and we'll have a call.

Grant

 

[mr_palitoy]

I have emailed Toni again about his 2nd ebay account and all the other new evidence that has come to light. Will let you know if I get a response.



Jason

 

[Richard_H]

I'm someone with no interest (financial) in this whatsoever. I collect loose figures only.
I don't know Toni. I didn't know JJ - still don't know him but we got on really well.
There's lots of evidence here that suggests one thing and very little the other way.

Bias or working with what we've got?

 

[ace]

Hi everyone

it was good to meet up with some may of you at the weekend

as i have sad before if you need to know anything pleases ask.

The figures i brought to the event at the weekend i did not by from Toni direct as i have said before i never felt i really wanted to pay good money for them as i knew what they were .

upon going threw some of my boxes of figures i found some of the figures we have all been talking about IE Toni figures

and thinking back and after taiking it over with Mark Woolllard my business parter from Off World at the time we jogged our memories and i remembered buying these figures from a collator that was located in Coventry , he had a great collection and he collected a lot of figures over his time as a collector he visited Cempton park , donnington and the NEC shows and bought from me Jim and Toni and others over the years, one day his farther passed away and things changed a lot for him , he went off the radar for a bit then one day i got a phone call and he said he needed to sell off his collection , we arranged to meet him at his mums place and we bought one of the bigger collations over that time, both mark and i remembered this collection very well as we bought it around a week or so before one of our Empier days and as such we sold nearly everything around 10 and did very well from the sale, in this collation was these ESB figures i took down to the show this weekend.

when i bought his collation i sew these figures and pulled them and anything else i needed for my collection as i would normally do it was the agreement if i needed something i got to buy it for may self back then, as i said i never bought any of Toni's figures from him direct, and i had forgotten about these few that came in this collection , till i was looking at the figurers to understand them all a little more as part of this investigation.

i cannot remember the guys name that owned these figures right now ? but Paul Wennington collector from Tyneside will remember his name and his collation as Paul drove me up to see this guys collection twice, Paul will know his name and one or two members on here know Paul so that into will be coming forward soon .

The figures are of great interest as they were the first ones that Toni was selling of on his stand at Donninton as both Mark and i remember this guy buying these figures from Toni and we also remember telling him they were put together , he did not seem to care and said that they looked cool and they were not that expensive so these were the first batch of cards that had been put together after Toni came into possession of this stock


the interesting thing is they are not that well done and it seems to show someone trying out different ways to attach the bubbles in several different ways .

some are very close and could fall me and others but some are just horrible.

but all are very interesting to look at as different techniques are bing used on the same card backs that have been only for sale from Toni fro over 20 year now .

so these figures are very important to finding out what has been going on for the past decade





i did not go live with them on here before the show as i wanted 2 or 3 people that i have been talking to see them first and i felt it would be best to calmly look at them and all take in what they are.


i felt if i just put up photos on here the thought process my get lost in the he said she said and the sometimes sidetracking conversations that happen on here , so i did hold them back for the weekend so that some of the experts and collectors with a lot of figure and card experience can see them and talk it out.

we did i think find 3 very important things

the glue

the hear process

the expiry date not being blanked out

more things are still being looked at and thought about at this time also.




i have to say it was quite amassing what came out this weekend with a group of intelligent nolagable collectors and i lent a few things i did not know also which was good.


i hope that helps clear up the questions and thoughts and we can keep this on track to get a definitive conciliation


one last point i feel its best to keep this thread alive and we should make a finale conclusion thread when we have a little more info , there is still many questions to be answered and also we need to get the info together with the help of the list when i find it to give all collectors in the future a clue to what is suspect and what is safe, so i think we need to let this run a bit more as good info is still coming in , thats just my thoughts on this?

jason

 

[jedisearcher]

Finally got the light right so the crescent fault on my double stem bubbles is visible properly. It's like the shape you'd get if the plastic was softer, and you stuck the end of your thumb nail in to it.

Some of these things about the unused cardbacks and bubbles having faults makes a lot of sense. There are faults on the Matthais' 3PO card, my double stems, think someone mentioned a Fett card issue as well. It makes sense because I can't see why they wouldn't have been used if they were perfect. So they are picked out by QC as faults, stuck in a store room and only moved on once the factory closed down.





Anyone else got the same?

 

[Grant_C]

Ok- yet another wall.

I have spoken to Paul.

In respect to the MOCs we have seen yesterday:

Paul can confirm:

He went to Coventry twice with JJ somewhere between 1988-1991 to pick up a collection.
He cannot remember what was purchased.
He cant remember his name (possibly David, he will check his diary's and let me know if he can find it)

Obviously there is no 'smoking gun' here, but I think its important to keep asking questions.

 

[benny100]

Anyone else notice there's always a lot of guests viewing this topic? Not surprising given the potential impact on a collection, or maybe there's a few silent watchers! :shock:

 

[skye]

Kids are home sick so I am having "CSI Chewseum" with them. They are having a blast, so there is at least something good coming out of this!

Our analysis has focused on the 4 65 Ds that I have. One cardback, one carded Chewie, one touched up miscard Chewie/Vader, and one beaten up miscard Madine/Vader.

Here are our findings:

1: The Madine seems the least likely to be a counterfit for the following reasons.
-it has price sticker residue
-the bubble is slightly yellowed
-the general hue of the card varies drastically from the other three (more on that later)

2: There are no readily apparent repeated printing errors among the 4, but I am not Mattias so it could just be that my slower American eyes can't see it.

3: My son immediately noted the "crescent" on my Vader / Chewie miscard, so that appears to be a modern seal (we shouldn't call them reseals, right? I mean, they were never sealed in the first place.

4: They all have the sharpied out line on the back. Has anyone else mentioned this? This seems to definitely end the debate about whether or not the unused cardbacks could be proofs. Why do that on a proof? Though, why would Toni sell unused carbacks in addition to carded versions? It seems that it is not very wise.

5: Similarly, what is the deal with them all being punched? The cardbacks are not punched but the carded are. So, did he do this to make it seem more "real." Seems strange. Or, were some punched and others unpunched?

6: As mentioned previously, there seems to be a slight color difference. The Madine, which I presume to be real, is much greener. Perhaps this is from a different batch than the Toni case?

I will post two pictures below. The first will be the mod-sealed vader with the crescent and the other will be the Madine with the greener hue.

 

[Grant_C]

Welcome to SWFUK Skye- nice to see you join in.

One thing you will notice from the 'modern seals' is that the card will not have the heat sealed machine press that is a noticeable block on the back of the MOC around where the figure is.

The card will be completely flush like a proof.

 

[spoons]

do these crescents appear on a variety of bubble types?

 

[mr_palitoy]

The big ebay sell off has started. starwarsfigures has a couple of pink dot c3p0 removeable limbs newly listed on ebay:-

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Vintage-Star-Wars-C3PO-Palitoy-ROTJ-65-Back-D-Carded-Unpunched-FREE-CASE-AFA-/171196931218?pt=UK_ToysGames_ActionFigures_ActionFigures_JN&hash=item27dc21dc92

Jason

 

[mr_palitoy]

Heres one on a 3 day auction listed yesterday from tooshortforastormtrooper:-

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Star-Wars-Vintage-C-3PO-Removable-Limbs-AFA-85-Clear-Bubble-Palitoy-/161175827341?pt=UK_ToysGames_ActionFigures_ActionFigures_JN&hash=item2586d3f38d

Cant see the pink dot due to dark photo but it's AFA 85, and given the timing...



Jason

 

[edd_jedi]

Does anybody know if AFA have acknowledged this yet? There is now 100% concrete proof that at least some of these in circulation are fake.

 

[JohnA]

In my mind there is no issue regarding whether or not there are a ton of recards out there...

Not to be pedantic but perhaps a new term needs to be coined. These aren't recards. Recard would imply they were once carded and are being RE carded. I guess, in a way, the figures are being recarded but this is a term that usually implied the card and/or bubble is/are fake. Resealed is usually when either the cardback is repaired and the bubble put back on or it was such a clean break that the bubble is just glued back. This is an all new animal where the card and bubble are new and never before attached. Heat sealing makes it even more difficult. I've thought about it and no term really hits the mark to me. I just know recard seems like a pretty big misnomer to me.

And, again, this is still all circumstantial so take it with a grain of salt. (FWIW I was trying to be open but the evidence is growing beyond impartiality)

John

 

[mr_palitoy]

In my mind there is no issue regarding whether or not there are a ton of recards out there...

Not to be pedantic but perhaps a new term needs to be coined. These aren't recards. Recard would imply they were once carded and are being RE carded. I guess, in a way, the figures are being recarded but this is a term that usually implied the card and/or bubble is/are fake. Resealed is usually when either the cardback is repaired and the bubble put back on or it was such a clean break that the bubble is just glued back. This is an all new animal where the card and bubble are new and never before attached. Heat sealing makes it even more difficult. I've thought about it and no term really hits the mark to me. I just no recard seems like a pretty big misnomer to me.

And, again, this is still all circumstantial so take it with a grain of salt. (FWIW I was trying to be open but the evidence is growing beyond impartiality)

John

I'm calling them MTO. Made to Order.



Jason

 

[mr_palitoy]

Does anybody know if AFA have acknowledged this yet? There is now 100% concrete proof that at least some of these in circulation are fake.

AFA/UKG need to give a united front on this. They should be in here, driving this investigation.

They will need to do something with all the Tonis (both ungraded and graded) which are now winging their way for grading/authentication.

(And figure out what to do about the ones that they have already graded)



Jason

 

[JohnA]

This pink dot thing on the card backs. Could it not be a simple case that some went to production, QA picked up on the flaw and pulled the lot, both carded and loose cards would then exist.

That same thought crossed my mind and I was actually going to bring it up. I'd like to think they'd be destroyed or marked in some way though. I know QC cards that passed inspection have turned up for Kenner and some Euro distributors. I've never seen anything that failed though. It's quite possible they failed and the whole batch, carded and cards, just got boxed away. Maybe these were even rescued from the bin, ala Steve "Dumpster Diver" Denny??

John

 

[ace]

i think we need to look at things properly before taking the decoction that certain cards at affect or a bubble is as we could condemn good figures if we are wrong ?, real unaffected cards could be unfairly targeted and that dose not help anyone.

so we need to keep on gathering intel on all these posable effected carded figures

i think we are along way from being to identify a suspect carded figure 100% at this time so i think we all need to put a lot more work into that.

Its like the police say its an ongoing investigation more info is coming together and i think with all the collators impute there is on here it will help to give us a fine tell list of things to look for on suspect carded figures, but i think we need to be open to what we are looking at for a bit longer.

i know what i know , but the issue is showing it to others so everyone can also understand what has happened here.

At this point we can all see there is a lot amiss with these carded figures from Toni , there is know smoke with out fire , you do not have to believe my side of things or everything i have said if you do not want to thats fine, but we can see there are real issues here and we need to make what we have leant and everything we can find out transparent for everyone so everyone can understand, or it could damage all carded figures and that helps no one .

i do see the complete story is coming together eventually.

Jason

 

[skywalker]

Where the **** is Toni...???

How can he not want to defend himself..??

 

[skye]

I was saying the same thing, John.

How about "mod-seals" indicating modern seals of vintage materials.