Resealed figure discovery debate - G.Kurtz Palitoy VC Jawa.

[M_Rendahl]

Well, Al Capone was prisoned for tax crimes and not for murder etc.

I'm very busy at the moment and have been wanting to chime in more. My post about the c-3po is only for that card/character since I've only been able to compare that one with an unused cardback. Print errors occur all the time and can easily slip through any QC guy. But the chances of unused cardbacks and mint moc's with the exact same small print error are none to slim, especially since all other c-3po's Ive seen (used hardbacks, other moc's etc) dont have those errors. So I'd bet my collection the c-3po's are home made. The others I dont know until Ive been able to compare them with unused cardbacks. I will recieve some pics during the holidays and I'll post my info about others here as soon as Ive got something new. But the other "evidence" Ive seen speaks clearly for itself, an more is coming every day.

I'm actually quite surprised by two things:
1. Many seem to be ok with this and trying to find a name for what it is. Sure it's only vintage parts used. But if I'd find a draft made my Picasso, oil paint tubes and brushes he used to own. It sure doesnt make it a Picasso just because I used his original stuff to make the painting. It's bad stuff no matter how you look at it imo.
2. Maybe more disgusted than surprised by how many ppl are trying to jump ship and sell their TT moc's on ebay to poor bastards that doesnt have a clue what is going on behind the scenes.

I'm impressed by all the work so many have done, great detective work guys. Maybe its not a "real" court case yet, but I'm sure the collecting community court knows exactly how to rule already.

Mattias

 

[Stormtrooper37]

2. Maybe more disgusted than surprised by how many ppl are trying to jump ship and sell their TT moc's on ebay to poor bastards that doesnt have a clue what is going on behind the scenes.

Mattias

Are they??

What MOC's are those??

 

[Richard_H]

I really hope these ebay sales are coincidental.

Although I bet I got a lot of "should have done their research" comments.

 

[sandtrooper-5]

Also Iron Method? Hoth Trooper Palitoy 65 Back - same scuff marks as the Fett. Malheated bubble. Also check the area around the hanger tab where it looks like there is an indent of another hanger tab where another card was resting on top. V shaped imprint at stem.

077 by Caswell2009, on Flickr

078 by Caswell2009, on Flickr

079 by Caswell2009, on Flickr

079 by Caswell2009, on Flickr

080 by Caswell2009, on Flickr

I got 2 Snowtroopers (Upside Stem, Double Stem) look like closed in the same method

 

[Stormtrooper37]

More fool them December is the WORST MONTH for selling vintage Star Wars on e-bay

 

[chrisfnx]

Im no expert. My C3PO Palitoy 65bk removable limbs comes with a bag over the black net type thing. I got this when I did a fair years ago privately. I dont know if this is any use at all, apologies if it isnt. I can do more pics if necessary. I also have a Boba Fett which was bought off toytoni years ago, through his ad.

 

[M_Rendahl]

I really hope these ebay sales are coincidental.

I hope so too

Forgot to mention that more C-3PO cardbacks and moc images has been sent to me. Big thanks to Jason (mr palitoy) who sent me a bunch. All images I've received that features TT stuff have the print errors, all other cardbacks and mocs from childhood collections don't. So it sure looks like the C-3PO's from TT was made by using unused cardbacks

Mattias

 

[Stargeezer]

Do not google 'Dirty Toni'

Do not look at the first image returned on images.

Unless you have safe search turned on.

:shock:

Jason

Why the **** Didn't i listen to you.... A filty image burned On my eyes... :|

 

[Caswellbot]

Also Iron Method? Hoth Trooper Palitoy 65 Back - same scuff marks as the Fett. Malheated bubble. Also check the area around the hanger tab where it looks like there is an indent of another hanger tab where another card was resting on top. V shaped imprint at stem.

077 by Caswell2009, on Flickr

078 by Caswell2009, on Flickr

079 by Caswell2009, on Flickr

079 by Caswell2009, on Flickr

080 by Caswell2009, on Flickr

I got 2 Snowtroopers (Upside Stem, Double Stem) look like closed in the same method

Thank you for this. Do you have some photos to share of them? Can you remember where you bought them?

Thanks, Chris.

 

[mr_palitoy]

I sent a longer email to Tony earlier today which I received a reply to just as I left the house to go to a comedy night. I will post the full exchange when I gets back. Still ignoring all the evidence I've listed fir him, blaming Jj and/or Arrhur fir everything and scared to post on thus thread as he will get ripped to shreds. I'll try and keep the dialogue going to see if I can get him to open up some more.

Cheers Jason

 

[itfciain]

What exactly can he blame them for ?

 

[_Lee_]

Toni wrote a book called 'Future toys' with a guy named Paul Nunneley,perhaps a little detective work could find some line on contact with this guy? He may know what Toni had/has if he has written a book with him.Long shot but worth a try.

On another note,is there a distinct possibility that Arthur Bailey or Toni could have worked at Palitoy? Another long shot,but maybe something is there?

Last but not least,i can let everyone know that Toni has been buying many,many more AFA u grade figures aside from Ebay,and they are the usual suspects.That is 100% certain,so the Ebay purchases area drop in the ocean.I have also seen an email from him basically stating that he is using AFA and other graded examples as his get out of jail card.Basically,he aint admitting nothing.He is saying this more or less:

'hi,i havent been sealing carded figures.You have bought from me with satisfaction,all of which you have had graded'

He doesnt give a toss.

 

[spoons]

I guess all 03's would come from the same Palitoy factory press so would leave the same 'footprint'
(The right angle is on both corners)

Someone with more knowledge may be able to correct me on this?

Both my GM and pal ESB 45 with 03 bubbles have the corner angles

My ESB double stemmed pal 45 has no corners

And the assumed fake Stormtrooper double stem has a thin glue seal all the way around, a big gap there - how were we and AFA fooled for so long?

As to John A's question about crime - Toni doesn't sell these as original we all trust that they are so it will be difficult to make a legal case

I'm also amazed by the lack of animosity but it might have something to do with the sheer scale of this - I'm up for a refund if anyone is paying Toni a visit

Funny coincidence that both Billy and Toni are Brighton based - must be the sea air.

 

[Stormtrooper37]

I sent a longer email to Tony earlier today which I received a reply to just as I left the house to go to a comedy night. I will post the full exchange when I gets back. Still ignoring all the evidence I've listed fir him, blaming Jj and/or Arrhur fir everything and scared to post on thus thread as he will get ripped to shreds. I'll try and keep the dialogue going to see if I can get him to open up some more.

Cheers Jason

This says it all..............I think most people reading this have already made their mind's up. TT is a fraudster, but to what extent remains to be seen.

 

[ace]

On another note,is there a distinct possibility that Arthur Bailey or Toni could have worked at Palitoy? Another long shot,but maybe something is there?

Hi Palitoy78

i cannot remember what Arthur did work at in the past when i use dot talk to him , but it was nothing at all to do with Palitoy or toys ether , he just used to collect old toys and triad in them also.

as to Toni he lived in Briton for as long as i can remember and never talked about anything like this , i am a talker love to talk to people about everything so if ether of them had anything to do with Palitoy it would have come out and i would have love to have herd about it so i would have none so i do not think its the care on these two.


jason

 

[sandtrooper-5]

Also Iron Method? Hoth Trooper Palitoy 65 Back - same scuff marks as the Fett. Malheated bubble. Also check the area around the hanger tab where it looks like there is an indent of another hanger tab where another card was resting on top. V shaped imprint at stem.

077 by Caswell2009, on Flickr

078 by Caswell2009, on Flickr

079 by Caswell2009, on Flickr

079 by Caswell2009, on Flickr

080 by Caswell2009, on Flickr

I got 2 Snowtroopers (Upside Stem, Double Stem) look like closed in the same method

Thank you for this. Do you have some photos to share of them? Can you remember where you bought them?

Thanks, Chris.

Here they are:

Walraus Man with printing error and "dirt" at nameplate (Palitoy 45 Back, trilogo Bubble)

All cards were from ebay or from trusted collectors

 

[ace]

Are the Meccano Jawa's questionable or not? i know Arthur was the source for these too.

hi Delboy75

the french Jawas are fine mate they were not just from Arthur as others also sold them back then , i think all the french Jawas originally came from a place called Goeff Toys a toy shop that Palitoy used to clear end of line toys through and they also had Jawa's and may have been the place where Arthur bought his Jawa's from in the first place ?

hope that helps

jason

 

[Caswellbot]

Hi Del Id also like to add that I too believe the Mecanno Jawas to be real. It is not unheard of for shipping cartons of them to appear for sale still to this day. A friend picked one up last year and at least 2 cartons were sold earlier this year on ebay alone. They were obviously around in some quantities.

Chris.

 

[Caswellbot]

Thanks for the pics Sandtrooper. Well as you can guess, the Hoth trooper doesnt look good. Any chance you could find the ebay seller?? Long shot I know.

 

[_Lee_]

On another note,is there a distinct possibility that Arthur Bailey or Toni could have worked at Palitoy? Another long shot,but maybe something is there?

Hi Palitoy78

i cannot remember what Arthur did work at in the past when i use dot talk to him , but it was nothing at all to do with Palitoy or toys ether , he just used to collect old toys and triad in them also.

as to Toni he lived in Briton for as long as i can remember and never talked about anything like this , i am a talker love to talk to people about everything so if ether of them had anything to do with Palitoy it would have come out and i would have love to have herd about it so i would have none so i do not think its the care on these two.


jason

Jason,

Thanks.

Could you please return the email when you get a chance?

Lee

 

[skywalker]

God those hoth troopers are so clearly sealed with a household iron...

Unbelievable...

 

[Jez]

Holy Moly this makes for hard reading.

I just hope that the unused cards & bubbles that must have been left over at cease of production in the US were destroyed!

Can someone reassure me that the same hasn't potentially happened to Kenner leftovers?

 

[spoons]

Holy Moly this makes for hard reading.

I just hope that the unused cards & bubbles that must have been left over at cease of production in the US were destroyed!

Can someone reassure me that the same hasn't potentially happened to Kenner leftovers?

Nope - I'm waiting for the Kenner 47 back scandal

 

[søren]

Mattias , great work on the cardback stuff . I have a childhood c-3po pali 65 Nien Numb offer cardback . Sold in the danish part of Metro ( price sticker ) It does not have the pink dot either .

I have a lot off other pali cards with danish stickers . If you need other let me know . I would say say that in the 80s 1/3 - 1/ 4 of all sw sold in Denmark where palitoy the rest where kenner . And during clearenc sales in 1987 there where many many meccano jawas sold ... I can remembere seeing boxes of them i toy stores .

You guys can see a picture of a shop sold cardback here and read about the big sale .

http://trilogo.info/features/faetter-br-the-great-danish-trilogo-sale/

Looking at some of the palitoy cards today to find the 3-po card . I looked at where the bubels used to sit on the cardbacks . I know that it is not in the right place al the time . But when looking at the short clip of the palitoy sealing machine . It hit me , the bubels would not be able to move very much . So maybe one can measure from used cardsbacks or mocs with price stickers where a real buble is suppose to sit , against the ones on toys . His sealing rig must have been the same for 10+ years ? So this might be a fingerprint on his stuff ?

 

[ace]

sorry Lee what email address did you send it to me under ? with Stan Lee being announce end of last week i have around 2500 emails to go though so can you remind me again please thanks and i will respond

thansk

jason

 

[ace]

Holy Moly this makes for hard reading.

I just hope that the unused cards & bubbles that must have been left over at cease of production in the US were destroyed!

Can someone reassure me that the same hasn't potentially happened to Kenner leftovers?

Nope - I'm waiting for the Kenner 47 back scandal

its very unlikely to happen again there is not much chance that A that there is a big hall of unused cards figures and bubbles out there that know one knows exists that has serviced over this many years and that there is someone dishonest that would try to pass them off over decades ?

so its very unlikely these moons will be in a liniment again ?

 

[Caswellbot]

Im sure others have already noticed but, Sandtrooper's Photo of his Hothtrooper has an 03 bubble discussed earlier in the thread. :?

 

[**Delboy75**]

Are the Meccano Jawa's questionable or not? i know Arthur was the source for these too.

hi Delboy75

the french Jawas are fine mate they were not just from Arthur as others also sold them back then , i think all the french Jawas originally came from a place called Goeff Toys a toy shop that Palitoy used to clear end of line toys through and they also had Jawa's and may have been the place where Arthur bought his Jawa's from in the first place ?

hope that helps

jason

Thanks for clearing that up.

 

[Dublinjeff]

I sent a longer email to Tony earlier today which I received a reply to.....scared to post on thus thread as he will get ripped to shreds.....

To me that's a complete get out clause. Why would anyone who has a genuine, legitimate explanation for what went on have any fear coming onto a discussion forum to clear up the real worries or concerns his customers have at present? As has been pointed out on here, this debate/fact finding mission has been very restrained, especially considering the road it appears to be going down.

Why, if he can explain his position in all of this would he fear being torn to shreads. People are only looking for a straight forward, honest reply to the growing 'evidence' that is mounting.

Rubbish :|

 

[spoons]

Hi guys, obviously a lot of folk have been down at the FF4 event today but it seems this thread has been romping on. Today was a busy day at Fordingbridge. It was great to meet up with a lot of collectors and talk all things vintage. Jason Joiner brought along some very interesting carded figures which he says were bought by a collector in Coventry who bought them from Toytoni at a toy fair at Donnington Park. Grant (Maulster) may be able to verify this in time as he is in contact with someone who knows the person who alledgedly bought these from Toni. Hopefully he can confirm whether or not what Jason is saying is verifiable.

For now at least, they are proof that someone at some point was definitely trying to seal these cards with limited success. A number of methods have been used of varying qualities. I will try to highlight a few of these methods. There were 17 cards in total and I took photos of nearly all of them. There was also an ESB GM 45 Back Hammerhead which had come clean off the card leaving a bubble (with spray adhesive on it) and a virtually mint cardback which I cant believe I missed photographing although this was 45 min photograph session! I would like to add that of the 17 cards we looked at about 4 looked like they might be ok. The rest were either like frankenstein experiments or near forgeries of the real seal.

Spray Mount - Spray Adhesive Method? ESB Leia General Mills 45 back (Blue Blaster?) Notice the mottled texture under the seal of the bubble indicating the use of a spray adhesive. The back of the card is perfectly flat. It doesnt look like any pressure/ machine was used to bond the bubble to the card.

037 by Caswell2009, on Flickr

038 by Caswell2009, on Flickr

039 by Caswell2009, on Flickr

040 by Caswell2009, on Flickr

041 by Caswell2009, on Flickr

042 by Caswell2009, on Flickr

043 by Caswell2009, on Flickr

Iron Method? Palitoy ROTJ Pale Blue Fett - Palitoy 65 Back - (Printing alignment error on card.) Note the dragging scuffs of the card which move away from the bubble in an upwards diagonal movement. There is also a triangle shaped indent in between the twin stem of the bubble which gave birth to the idea that this may have been done with a normal household iron. (Diagnosis courtesy of Lee Bullock) The puckering around the bubble also suggests uneven heating.

066 by Caswell2009, on Flickr

067 by Caswell2009, on Flickr

068 by Caswell2009, on Flickr

069 by Caswell2009, on Flickr

071 by Caswell2009, on Flickr

Also Iron Method? Hoth Trooper Palitoy 65 Back - same scuff marks as the Fett. Malheated bubble. Also check the area around the hanger tab where it looks like there is an indent of another hanger tab where another card was resting on top. V shaped imprint at stem.

077 by Caswell2009, on Flickr

078 by Caswell2009, on Flickr

079 by Caswell2009, on Flickr

079 by Caswell2009, on Flickr

080 by Caswell2009, on Flickr


Brush on Adhesive Method? Boba Fett Pale Blue - ROTJ 65 Palitoy Back - The glue looks different on this. It is not speckled/ mottled like the leia and instead looks like it may have been applied with a brush? Its a bit of a messy job as there are traces of glue residue smeared around the cardback. Glue couldnt be used to stick the twin stem area at the bottom so again it looks like an iron was used.

090 by Caswell2009, on Flickr

091 by Caswell2009, on Flickr

093 by Caswell2009, on Flickr

094 by Caswell2009, on Flickr

095 by Caswell2009, on Flickr

Dare I say it, this one looked ok? 2-1-B Metallic Version GM 45 Back. Better cleaner seal which looked crystal clear. The black underneath the card actually looked black. There is also evidence of pressure being applied to the back of the card to seal the card and bubble.

072 by Caswell2009, on Flickr

073 by Caswell2009, on Flickr

074 by Caswell2009, on Flickr

076 by Caswell2009, on Flickr

Please click on any of the photos to enlarge and see the other photos of all the cards and to see the photos from what was a very enjoyable day in Fordingbridge. Thanks David for organising it!

Quick question - any black marker on the back of any of these or more recent fake 65 backs?

Skye mentioned some bit I don't know if his are real fakes

If only genuine cards had the date blocked out it would
Help those with potential fakes in their collections.