Resealed figure discovery debate - G.Kurtz Palitoy VC Jawa.

[tigerham]

The truth always comes out in the end no matter how long it takes and as hard as the outcome may be in the long run it is most certainly for the best and makes for a brighter future for all those involved. Call it a cleaning process if you will. We all make mistakes, some bigger than others and it's the fact we learn by them and not make the same ones again that counts. I hope this is all cleared up sooner rather than later.

 

[mr_palitoy]

What i meant is that all the backers had punches,that were unpunched

Yep, can see that on the bigger photos. The RS thread said they didnt have any holes, maybe someone else didnt understand what unpunched meant!



Jason

 

[Mr-shifter]

Ok, I might be being paranoid here but I got home tonight and had a good look at my hoth trooper from Toni. It's a Jedi 65 back palitoy. Can someone tell me if the following are normal. Paranoia is setting in now.

The bubble in the bottom corner has a "pinch". The following is a pic



The inside of the bubble looks like it has been wiped with something. The kind of smear type effect you get if you clean glass and don't wipe it off afterwards.



And finally, I noticed the card is damaged under the bubble. There are 2 marks



Close up



The backs of the cards have the bulge around the bubbles where they have been pressed.

This may all be normal but I'm not sure. Perhaps some of the more experienced moc guys can tell me if these are normal anomalies or not.

 

[JohnA]

So now we have a statement from Toni saying that he never had an unused cardbacks and a collector on RS claiming he bought 5 from him at a show in Atlantique City? Well something isn't right there, that's for sure.

That's not just a collector. That's Andy Loney from The Toy Cave. Andy has been a dealer for years and has a stellar rep. I even recall him selling some of these as far back as either C2 or C3. I almost bought one and remember asking him to try to get me a Biker Scout. We used to go to AC to the toy show twice a year. I have no doubt what he says is true, especially since he made the comment a few years ago.

John

 

[Grant_C]

We are 1

 

[ace]

JJ a quick question while you're on. What are your thoughts on how the newly made cards are being sealed/have bee sealed?

Whatever is going on, it's gonna take a big piece of kit to pressure/heat seal those things. If you've got no idea then no problem.

there is a lot of speculation on here right now and i do not think it will help if i also speculate also it will only confuses everyone more and that would not be a responsible thing to do.

i do know what i witnessed and what i know to be the facts and as such i feel i know the true story now more then i did when i first come on here , many of you have exposed things i did not know , and i am only referring to things like eBay accounts, German card backs with English text on the back etc , Arthur / Toni directors of a LTD company etc , not hearsay or guesses , just facts and i do now feel i know the inter story of what has happened over the last few decades .

at this time its not for me to put that out and its all still all coming out and i feel its much more important to have even more come out so we all learn as many of the facts as we can.

thats my stance on this , i do feel the truth always comes out in the end you just have to have people talking about it and it will come out.

i will keep an eye on the thoughts and findings that people are coming in with , i do feel you are on the right track and it is all coming out, i feel all the facts are out there with the public , the evidence is laying all around as back in the day things like the difference between figures that were made late and early ones was not understood by collectors let along Toni so this is the smocking gun, someone just needed to have some more of the history to link up to tell the true story, i am jut sorry i had to be me cough up in the middle of things if someone that was well know in the collecting community came by this info it would maybe of helped everyone understand it faster, there are good smart people on here and its in the right hands i feel for the real truth to come out if not totally but 80%

i think when i find the list it will show the figures that are affected and the numbers of them , that is important for damaged limitation in the collating market .

one last thing i think i should say and its something that has kept me safe over many years of trading and collating and its simple

"If something seems to good to be true it normally is."

someone having mint carded figures of a toy line that at the time sold out all the time and was the hottest toys for many years running and this someone is selling them endlessly for decades with out them running out there is something very wrong .
it is just to good to be true .

i am going back now to find the list , this is not what i expected to be doing over Christmas :-\ and i have to say i never knew i had kept so much personal history junk wow

j

 

[spoons]

Chris, this is what you mean isn't it?





They are Leia Bespin and Power Droid on GM 45's with the English text. Take a look at the Power Droid (the second one), there also looks to be some slight bubbling most noticably in the top left corner directly behind the bubble. Both cards do look really nice quality, but the closer you look they are slightly scratched, tiny indents, they look very slightly worn, like they've been handled abit. Probably an AFA 85.

I also have Ben and Han Original on GM 45's with no English text and they look the same on the back with the outline of the bubble visible. Out of the four, only the PD has any sign of that bubbling.



However, and different to the Leia and PD, these no English text cards are completely immaculate. They quite literally don't have any wear whatsoever. Glossy, smooth, no edgewear, not a blemish. It's hard to believe they've ever been through a factory production line. Of 23 graded by AFA, there's a single 95 and 10 90's :shock: I'm thinking these are 90's although I've had 90's and they weren't this good.

To the front of the card, something I also noticed is so slight marking on the bubble. First one Leia Bespin, with English text:



Zoom in and take a look at the bubble seal to the right of her waist. There's a small arc on the edge, fuly indented into the bubble.

The Han Solo with no text has the same:



Neither Ben nor PD have any such markings. So a no English text and an English text card have the same indent. Not easy to tell whether they're a fault in the plastic, or happened on sealing.

Chris

In terms of identifying duds Chris' photos are very useful.

I've just compared my Uk ESB Bossk, GM Stormtrooper and GM Han Hoth

Thanks to Wolffs eagle eye I now know that the Han Hoth is legit, there isn't a clear dent from pressing but there is slight bowing from the bubble. Wolff noticed that the Han has residue from a removed sticker on the rear, in exactly the same position as the used cardbacks photos 20 pages ago

The UK Bossk also has this bowing, but the Stormtrooper card is perfectly flat as well as having dimples around the bubble.

Still not definitive proof but I'm now less concerned about the Bossk but fairly convinced that the Stormtrooper is fake

What is also clear is that there are genuine mint GM cards out there

 

[BlueDog]

I believe finding this list should be be of the utmost importance to you at this moment Jason, in fact it would have been much more preferable that you had it in your possession before even raising this at all. If you had we could have avoided most of the speculation all together.

I can only begin to imagine what stress and anxiety this has caused owners of these cards especially those that own quite a few of them, you owe it to them now to prove one way or the other that what you say is true as quickly as possible!

 

[walkie]

This'll hit page 100 for Christmas!!

 

[BlueDog]

That late!

 

[olisuds]

I have a feeling this list will never turn up.

Anyone want a bet?

 

[olisuds]

Jason.

That was a group shot of my old Lando Skiff focus.The Palitoy card was unpunched,but the punch was present..There was a punch on all the Palitoy unused backers floating around.I never saw any unpunched example.

Lee

That's an awesome looking Lando skiff run!

So are you guys thinking that the effected cards that Toni is accused of sealing are likely to be unpunched since the unused card stock also appears to be unpunched?

 

[Dark Sith Lord]

I have a feeling this list will never turn up.

Anyone want a bet?

I fear you may be right!

Hopefully Jason can prove me wrong tho

 

[spoons]

I have a feeling this list will never turn up.

Anyone want a bet?

my thoughts exactly - I doubt if the truth will ever come out

As others point out Toni doesn't sell these as factory sealed so there is no point taking him to court (if he is faking them), and how does anyone prove that a card sold through modelmart is the one they own today?

 

[jedi_masters]

I have a feeling this list will never turn up.

Anyone want a bet?

To be honest I have though this from the start. Funny how since he has made these claims he hasn't been able to did the list. I am always happy to be proved wrong.

 

[edd_jedi]

I don't think the list is that important to be honest, it's clear as day from the RS quotes and the photos of various graded unused cardbacks that these unused cardbacks did exist and at least some came from Toni, so that part of the puzzle is solved. All that needs answering is whether unused bubbles exist (which the list may help with) but more importantly an admission from Toni (or anybody else that has been involved, eg somebody mentioned a few pages back that JJ had Boba Fett's he knew were fakes) that some of his stock is fake. The list won't prove that.

 

[Dublinjeff]

If I was affected by this my fear would be that as lads have said, no list/evidence will ever be produced. It's quite likely that JJ was aware that something 'may' have gone on and was slinging the mud knowing some would stick.

Toni on the other hand, although very conspicuous by his lack of contribution, maybe sitting back seeing how this plays out. Is proof provided. If not, "well see there you go guys, just JJ doing what he does etc..." and suspicious as it all may be, there might never be a definitive conclusion.

If something does appear...oh....mmmmhh..."ok, see there was some cards and bubbles"...

 

[wrighty]

May I ask, how all these came to light in the 1st place after so many years?

 

[escapist]

May I ask, how all these came to light in the 1st place after so many years?

It was kind of a throwaway comment that got latched onto on about page 10 of this thread.

Jason Joiner ('ace') was posting that he could tell us some stories he knew of from his years of collecting and mentioned 25,000 cardbacks that were purchased from the Palitoy factory when it closed. Its sort of blossomed from there.

 

[Anonymous]

I believe finding this list should be be of the utmost importance to you at this moment Jason, in fact it would have been much more preferable that you had it in your possession before even raising this at all. If you had we could have avoided most of the speculation all together.

I can only begin to imagine what stress and anxiety this has caused owners of these cards especially those that own quite a few of them, you owe it to them now to prove one way or the other that what you say is true as quickly as possible!

What list mate?