Resealed figure discovery debate - G.Kurtz Palitoy VC Jawa.

[lee gray]

Whether Toni put the figures on the cards or not, he has already stated in this thread that he didnt, so why do people want him to post in here again for saying the same thing ?, it will just go round and round in circles and people will and have drawn their own conclusions.

any of us could easily call out a member here with lies about something and the **** would stick even if untrue, there will always be a little poo left over..... stinky smelly rotten poo

 

[Grant_C]

This thread has caught up with sandcrawler tits :shock:

 

[lee gray]

This thread has caught up with sandcrawler tits :shock:

I never did get to see those tits

 

[Caswellbot]

We certainly dont want to get hung up on the poo Lee. :lol:

In all honesty though, seriously look at what has been presented. There is no denying that the circumstances call for people to be highly suspicious. Especially now Paul has also come out saying that Toni was buying heaps of mint loose Yodas from him years ago as well as this "second ebay account" seemingly used for buyng mint loose figures.

 

[Grant_C]

This thread has caught up with sandcrawler tits :shock:

I never did get to see those tits

PM on its way

 

[Joseph_Y]

Ok I'm sticking my reputation on the line here. Actually just realised I don't have one. But anyway.... I'm in JJs camp. There is just too much that is wrong here and the silence is deafening. I hope I'm wrong for the sake of friends who may have these cards but I don't think so.

I also think that how these are sealed should be studied very carefully.

So we need someone with a non Toni gm moc and a Toni gm moc, if anyone is willing to send these to Steve at ukg for an impartial comparison I'll pay for them to be graded and return postage. Any takers?

I suggested just that a few pages back and was ignored. I definitely think that comparing the seals under microscope is the best way to determine legitimacy, since Toni's already denied it, Jason is slow on giving us the smoking gun, and there are tons of collectors of non US carded figures looking at their collections with worry in their eyes at the moment.

Cheers
J

 

[Joseph_Y]

Also, just playing devils advocate here, being that Toni was a dealer. Couldn't he have just been buying tons of mint loose figures just for resale? or to get graded then resell? Having 2 ebay accts is odd, but maybe one for buying and one for selling, so that people wouldn't realize how much profit he was making? All just conjecture, but in the realm of possible.

J

 

[PGowdy]

Also, just playing devils advocate here, being that Toni was a dealer. Couldn't he have just been buying tons of mint loose figures just for resale? or to get graded then resell? Having 2 ebay accts is odd, but maybe one for buying and one for selling, so that people wouldn't realize how much profit he was making? All just conjecture, but in the realm of possible.

J

I have 2 ebay accounts. Pretty standard practice if you're an ebay seller/trader. It's on page 1 of the manual.

 

[Vernon]

OK-

legally- Mr Emchowicz Lawyer would advise him to say nothing.

If the case against him his true and a case built on the accusation of fraud. It would go to the High Court and Mr Emchowicz could face, if found guilty a lengthy prison sentence.

I am desperately hoping that this is not true.

It would be up to Mr. Emchowicz to pay costs for a case if he wished to sue Mr Joiner for slander. If Mr Emchowicz can prove that Mr. Joiners claims are false. Mr Joiner would have to refund all court costs and pay out a large sum of money in damages.

I know this sounds extreme. But it could easily go this way if we take into account the breath of money involved from every collector.

His website only shows a photo and a description ie esb r2 c8+ so i dont think he has anything to worry about there.
How does he describe his MOC's on ebay?

 

[poncho]

:? im confused.....fill me in...the general gist im getting is
in the early 90's a reputable then starwars dealer and still is (toy toni maybe..or whoeever some one in early collecting circles) bought lots of unused carbacks and double stem bubbles and has potentially being buying mint loose figures since the early 90's sealing them up god knows how? and flogging them as moc's for a tidy profit and still could be..........what a scam........................ if its true!?

 

[jedisearcher]

Yeah but it's what you're buying on one and selling on the other that's more interesting.

It looks like a production line

And anyway, why bother making afew pennies buying and flipping when you've got a storeroom full of highly valuable MOC's? From a business perspective it doesn't make much sense.

 

[Grant_C]

fortunately some collectors have saved their Model and Collectors Mart.

A magazine of classifieds from the 80's and 90's that Toytoni advertised in.

Carded and MOC MOMC are renowned collectors terms.

The prices also indicate that they are originals.

There would be zero defence.

 

[Vernon]

fortunately some collectors have saved their Model and Collectors Mart.

A magazine of classifieds from the 80's and 90's that Toytoni advertised in.

Carded and MOC MOMC are renowned collectors terms.

The prices also indicate that they are originals.

There would be zero defence.

Cant argue with that

 

[Caswellbot]

fortunately some collectors have saved their Model and Collectors Mart.

A magazine of classifieds from the 80's and 90's that Toytoni advertised in.

Carded and MOC MOMC are renowned collectors terms.

The prices also indicate that they are originals.

There would be zero defence.

I'm not following you Grant, can you explain?

 

[Grant_C]

His website only shows a photo and a description ie esb r2 c8+ so i dont think he has anything to worry about there.
How does he describe his MOC's on ebay?

From this Chris.

 

[DarthStanley]

This thread has caught up with sandcrawler tits :shock:

I never did get to see those tits

PM on its way

I never saw them either,Grant can you send me a pm as well please? :lol:

 

[Grant_C]

Im going to start selling this picture for free TFP's.

No worries mate- sandcrawler tits for breakfast it is.

 

[Caswellbot]

Ok I'm sticking my reputation on the line here. Actually just realised I don't have one. But anyway.... I'm in JJs camp. There is just too much that is wrong here and the silence is deafening. I hope I'm wrong for the sake of friends who may have these cards but I don't think so.

I also think that how these are sealed should be studied very carefully.

So we need someone with a non Toni gm moc and a Toni gm moc, if anyone is willing to send these to Steve at ukg for an impartial comparison I'll pay for them to be graded and return postage. Any takers?

Although I understand your reasoning Jim, is it really worth sending them to Steve at UKG or afa for that reason? Toytoni mocs have been inspected and cleared by both parties. I like and respect ukg but I wouldn't be taking the word of any grading company on this matter especially when they have already passed inspection. I would feel more comfortable with someone posting close up pics of the seals of both and letting the wisdom of the crowds pass judgement. Grading companies are open to human error or misinterpretation. the more people can look at it the better.

One thing I was thinking about is the smudged litho under the seal on grants fett again. I've also been looking at examples online that are from Toni and the area under the seal looks a little cloudy/ hazy. I'll try and post pics later when I'm back at a computer to demonstrate what I mean.

 

[Caswellbot]

His website only shows a photo and a description ie esb r2 c8+ so i dont think he has anything to worry about there.
How does he describe his MOC's on ebay?

From this Chris.

I see. Well I think we can say that what is being advertised are carded figures because of the asking prices can't we?

 

[Grant_C]

Chris- I have another look at the Fett and there is no mark- must be light reflection.

Here is another I bought of Toytoni in November 1996:

I love this MOC- better be vintage 1983!

 

[Caswellbot]

The pics are a but dark grant could you take better ones in the day light if its not too much hassle? Thanks chris.

 

[Stargeezer]

Whether Toni put the figures on the cards or not, he has already stated in this thread that he didnt, so why do people want him to post in here again for saying the same thing ?, it will just go round and round in circles and people will and have drawn their own conclusions.

any of us could easily call out a member here with lies about something and the **** would stick even if untrue, there will always be a little poo left over..... stinky smelly rotten poo

Well Lee, he might responded here in the beginning of all this ****, but be real, how many times have we seen people say they did not do this, or had nothing to do with that,... and then afterwards when every piece off the puzzle fell together had to confess they actually did it.

I am not saying Toni is guilty of sealing mint figures to cardbacks to sell them as original, but just pointng out that almost all people even if they are guilty, always first claim the are not, and only cough up, with the fire catches them up.

Although, i don't like the fact Toni has gone silent now and also starting to believe the "if it walks and quacks like a duck..." thing on this...

The whole situation doens't look good.

 

[Stargeezer]

The pics are a but dark grant could you take better ones in the day light if its not too much hassle? Thanks chris.

I was actually glad they werent to clear.... :shock:

:lol:

 

[Richard_H]

I'm not sure AFA and UKG are the best place to go. It's not in their interest to determine that these are not the same as the factory sealed as they'd also have a lot of explaining to do.

 

[Grant_C]

The pics are a but dark grant could you take better ones in the day light if its not too much hassle? Thanks chris.

Chris- that's a big ask- I live in wales.

No worries- will so.

 

[Caswellbot]

:lol:

 

[jimbody1]

Then send them to someone else impartial and beyond reproach to check out. What about Joe? A stand up guy if ever there was one, obviously someone we all trust and respect. What about getting someone with a non Toni gm moc to hold it under blackight, i can get one of tonis and do the same here as we have proper UV blacklights for the UV scenes in I the panto. Any differences should be obvious.

 

[wbobafett]

I hear a lot of, where is the coo experts.....so assuming some of those are fake and the seal is solid proof we would need a data base for that. As Matthias and others have said, everthing is possble in GMs way of producing. They ran out of sth and just ask for another stock from another factory etc.
If you want to proof this with the figures used inside wee need looots of examples on looots of cardbacks. We could start with people who have a focus! If people are willing I would gladly help to inspect their datas they have collected. Maybe Spoons on Han hoth, Alex on Luke Bespin, Psybertech on Leia Bespin...etc...

Regarding that there is a lot of differences alone to that cardbacks (German ones with english text and no text, color differences and double and single stem blisters) it will be a pain for sure to get an opinion. But I would say if we can find a lot of different coos and variants (not only two or three) on one and the same cardback we can for sure say: there is something fishy going on.

Anyway....it will be very difficult, but an option. As said: we would need lots of good pictures and samples!


I honestly thought, if it was done they all were sealed in the early 90s, thats why noone can tell the differences anymore. As JoeO now found out, it is possible it is still going on, this is scary as hell if you ask me. Who says (if it happens) that toni is the only one??

And as some have pointed out it would have been nonsense to buy that stack of cards and bubbles having that plan in mind: Toni is sitting on a stock of MOCs since ages...everyone knows and is only selling those slowly to not ruin the market...that is a long time plan and very clever thought. If a person with that kind of buisness strategy gets an offer on 25000 cardbacks and bubbles he surely hasn't in mind to seal them all back, but he knows he will get massive competition on the market (in selling, in buying minty mint figures and so on). So it is only logical to buy them all IMO, no matter if you use them all...right??

Although I thought it was siad: 25000 cardbacks bubbles and figures?!?!? The first figures would have been mint and probably very well the same ones (coo, variant, etc)

@JoeY: I am not sure what you want to see with a microscope on a heat sealed bubble?? They are heat sealed, originals as well as possible fakes. They will look different...each of them...as you can see on the Palitoy video there was someone inserting them by hand, then pressing them together with a heating machine....for how long?? Every card was pressed different (thinking of the time) so the seals can look different...always. I am afraid you wont find anything to differ the seals. This would have been noticed since ages I guess, am I wrong??

So what maybe can be used is the good old UV light. Plastics that get heated once do age faster. A "newer" seal should be chemically different then an old seal (speaking of the plastic)...that maybe can be seen under UV. But I am sure Afa uses that for spotting ink touch uips...though?!?!??

As said: Mocs are totally not my buisness.....so sorry for talking BS... :lol:

 

[spoons]

Then send them to someone else impartial and beyond reproach to check out. What about Joe? A stand up guy if ever there was one, obviously someone we all trust and respect. What about getting someone with a non Toni gm moc to hold it under blackight, i can get one of tonis and do the same here as we have proper UV blacklights for the UV scenes in I the panto. Any differences should be obvious.

A good idea but how sure can we be of a non-Toni card's origins, these things change hands so much. I have two non-Toni cards but can't be sure they didn't originate from him. Especially as one is a Bossk

 

[Grant_C]

I have some Joiner MOCs as well from 1995- at least I think they are from Jason- the seals are identical to the ones I have off Toytoni.