Resealed figure discovery debate - G.Kurtz Palitoy VC Jawa.

[x-pack]

Who would really buy that many thousands of cards and bubbles over 20 years ago in the slight hope they might somehow be able to then aquire thousands of mint figures (way before the internet existed) and then hope that somehow they would be able to attach these bubbles to look like it was done at a factory..............seems like a stretch to me.

Maybe that wasn't the original plan but then someone got bored of having all these stacks of old stock cards and thought 'bollocks to it, I might as well make some money on these'. There's enough to play with experimenting with various sealing methods. Knock 'em out in the 90's when people probably weren't as knowledgeable as they are now. Dead easy.

 

[Joe]

Joe - how sure are you that this is an account linked to TT ? That figure list is very close to his current list of MOCs for sale

My first thought when I heard about the second account Iain was that it's worthless information without his name linked to it, however I was given proof that indeed it was Toni and without revealing too much (some people understandably do not want to be involved in all of this) I am 100% sure that the account is his. Without a doubt.

 

[tiefighterboy]

Maybe all smooth seals are fakes. No waffle pattern...so not the same tool or process.

 

[spoons]

Joe - how sure are you that this is an account linked to TT ? That figure list is very close to his current list of MOCs for sale

My first thought when I heard about the second account Iain was that it's worthless information without his name linked to it, however I was given proof that indeed it was Toni and without revealing too much information (some people understandably do not want to be involved in all of this) I am 100% sure that the account is his.

And there's your circumstantial smoking gun

The talk of a need for thousands of mint figures is pointless, you would only need to buy a few at a time and buy more when your stock is sold.

This thread has so many parallels with the unpainted Palitoy prototype outing its scary.

Billy boy was a respected authority and his 'samples' fooled many until folk got past the previous good character. He had me defending him for a long time.

The only sticking point here is the sealing process, and when Lee's Fetts are glued that's not much of a sticking point.

The whole of Toni's stock needn't be fake, it may only be a few. On the other hand it may be all of them or none of them - we may never know.

Todd - a lot of te Kenner 47s are smooth seal too

 

[Caswellbot]

Indeed, plenty of kenner smooth seals out there for sure Andy.

I'm certainly moving towards the notion that if it walks like a duck....

 

[tiefighterboy]

I have always thought the smooth sealed figures looked off. ****...Now I am on the fence. :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[Stargeezer]

Joe - how sure are you that this is an account linked to TT ? That figure list is very close to his current list of MOCs for sale

My first thought when I heard about the second account Iain was that it's worthless information without his name linked to it, however I was given proof that indeed it was Toni and without revealing too much (some people understandably do not want to be involved in all of this) I am 100% sure that the account is his. Without a doubt.

This thread is ******* hard to catch up with, but come from 10 pages down, reading his, i must agree its a scary thought and this together with the list you gave about the loose figures bought with that account, comes a little to close to be coincidence imo.

I wonder when Tony join in again and maybe sheds some light On all this.

 

[lee gray]

It would be funny of Toni made a reply here saying of course its true, I thought everyone knew

 

[spoons]

It would be funny of Toni made a reply here saying of course its true, I thought everyone knew

:lol:

 

[tiefighterboy]

It would be funny of Toni made a reply here saying of course its true, I thought everyone knew

and then the after the orgasm feel would hit everyone.

 

[jimbody1]

It would be funny of Toni made a reply here saying of course its true, I thought everyone knew

and then the after the orgasm feel would hit everyone.

LMFAO!

 

[søren]

Joe - how sure are you that this is an account linked to TT ? That figure list is very close to his current list of MOCs for sale

My first thought when I heard about the second account Iain was that it's worthless information without his name linked to it, however I was given proof that indeed it was Toni and without revealing too much (some people understandably do not want to be involved in all of this) I am 100% sure that the account is his. Without a doubt.

This thread is ******* hard to catch up with, but come from 10 pages down, reading his, i must agree its a scary thought and this together with the list you gave about the loose figures bought with that account, comes a little to close to be coincidence imo.

I wonder when Tony join in again and maybe sheds some light On all this.

Tony is also selling used cardbacks on his site ..... Buy cheap moc's - make your own ... sell the cardbacks from the moc's ...


Tony's business is stone dead ... Evey one in this hobby will read this and other threads . If that was my business i would be on here defending it .... Tony not taking part of this says it all in my book .

 

[spoons]

I have always thought the smooth sealed figures looked off. ****...Now I am on the fence. :lol: :lol: :lol:

A lot of the Kenner 47 Han Hoths all have dodgy smooth seals and are packed with Bespin blasters, it's almost like someone found a bunch of unused cardbacks but didn't know what weapon to pack

Now where are those COO experts...

 

[spoons]

Tony's business is stone dead ... Evey one in this hobby will read this and other threads . If that was my business i would be on here defending it .... Tony not taking part of this says it all in my book .

Totally agree with that, I'd be threatening legal action at the very least. Are those with the AFA90 collections going to do the same?

 

[tiefighterboy]

I have always thought the smooth sealed figures looked off. ****...Now I am on the fence. :lol: :lol: :lol:

A lot of the Kenner 47 Han Hoths all have dodgy smooth seals and are packed with Bespin blasters, it's almost like someone found a bunch of unused cardbacks but didn't know what weapon to pack

Now where are those COO experts...

and the smooth seals could be a clear adhesive or thermal reactive to minor heat applied and not be heat sealed.
**** me....I dont wanna buy smooth seals....unless they are heavily discounted (Taking the Lee G. stance. :lol: :lol: )

Plus side...this thread has raised all of our post counts. :wink:

 

[spoons]

I have always thought the smooth sealed figures looked off. ****...Now I am on the fence. :lol: :lol: :lol:

A lot of the Kenner 47 Han Hoths all have dodgy smooth seals and are packed with Bespin blasters, it's almost like someone found a bunch of unused cardbacks but didn't know what weapon to pack

Now where are those COO experts...

and the smooth seals could be a clear adhesive or thermal reactive to minor heat applied and not be heat sealed.
**** me....I dont wanna buy smooth seals....unless they are heavily discounted (Taking the Lee G. stance. :lol: :lol: )

Plus side...this thread has raised all of our post counts. :wink:

That's got to be worth the cost of a few dodgy German cards

 

[Captainsolo1978]

This has me worried. I have two mint German ESB figures which I bought from Toytoni. Does this mean the legitimacy of all mint Palitoy Carded figures is in doubt?

 

[spoons]

I'd be concerned if they are ESB German (both types), or ROTJ pal (particularly Fett)

Unfortunately there are lots if legitimate ROTJ Palitoy, which is why this is such a big deal if true. How does anyone know what is real or not?

 

[jimbody1]

Not at all, all it means is that people are taken in by someone with no proof to substantiate their claims.

 

[Caswellbot]

I'd be concerned if they are ESB German (both types), or ROTJ pal (particularly Fett)

Unfortunately there are lots if legitimate ROTJ Palitoy, which is why this is such a big deal if true. How does anyone know what is real or not?

In Grant (Maulster79) pics a few pages ago there was what looked like a smudge or lifting/ separating of litho from the card under the seal of the bubble on his old Palitoy ROTJ Fett moc. That sort of thing would be of definite concern to me.

 

[Joe]

This has me worried. I have two mint German ESB figures which I bought from Toytoni. Does this mean the legitimacy of all mint Palitoy Carded figures is in doubt?

I don't think it can raise doubts on everything out there but I can understand the worry if you bought figures directly from Toni.

I was thinking about some of the other figures he has sold over the years and while the German ESB cards seem the most plentiful, Toni has also sold a lot of Meccano Jawas and Trilogos (various figures/card types).

With my hand on my heart I can honestly say that while his Trilogos look just as nice as the German ESB figures I have never once doubted those were real/factory seals. I've seen a lot of Toni's Trilogos over the years as well as Trilogos from other sources and from studying them as much as I have done I can safely say that they all appear to be good. They match examples found in the wild, the card variants are usually Palitoy variations and he has had a lot of POTF figures with the £1.59 sticker attached (these are confirmed as factory applied stickers).

His Meccano Jawa figures also match any example I have ever seen and he is definitely not the only source of these figures (even if he seems to have the most).

So to sum up, even if were proven that he had been sealing figures himself over the years he has almost definitely sold many legit factory sealed ones too.

While I felt it was important for the ebay account to be mentioned (because of the items he is buying) there may still be a completely plausible explanation.

Toni - I think at this point everyone would appreciate seeing you posting again.

 

[jimbody1]

There's loads of cards with lifting bubbles, ive seen it a lot on kenners too it means nothing, find a Kenner 45b with a taped bubble (there's plenty of them about ) you will see the same issue.

 

[Pomse2001]

Søren has just asked me to upload the backside of my german red snaggletooth cardback in this thread :?

 

[Caswellbot]

I 100% agree that Toni has many undoubtedly legit MOCs. I have seen some of the Kenner cards he has sold including a ROTJ IG-88 and I can say without a doubt it was fine. Ive also seen one of his meccano cloth cap Jawa MOCs. In my opinion you are right about the cards in question Joe. This thread does not apply to all the MOCs Toni is selling.

 

[Caswellbot]

There's loads of cards with lifting bubbles, ive seen it a lot on kenners too it means nothing, find a Kenner 45b with a taped bubble (there's plenty of them about ) you will see the same issue.

Im not talking about lifting bubbles Jim, Im obviously well aware that it happens to all MOCs. Im talking here about the smudged litho under the seal. Thats not all that commonly seen from my perspective. Correct me if Im wrong.

 

[spoons]

I'm not criticising but I'm surprised by Jim's defence of Toni, particularly after the Ben and Edd fiasco.

I'm genuinely still in the fence but it doesn't look good for Toni, but I can appreciate tha if you've bought a lot from him then you will want to believe the best

 

[Grant_C]

Guys.


I am waiting for some evidence. It is looking highly likely that the seals are fine and the MOCs are real.

??

"highly likely" ?!

I was never that confused in all these years of collecting. I fear that this "case" will not be solved and a lot of collectors are left with doubts regarding collectibles they own or collectibles offered.

Trying my best to get third parties to come forward whom may have counter Jason's evidence. Its beyond my reach at the moment and I don't wish to tread on toes.

 

[Captainsolo1978]

Surely someone knows an ex Palitoy employee who can identify legitimately seals and the process used.

 

[Grant_C]

Yes- people do.

This will take a while, but things are in motion for a resolution.

 

[jimbody1]

I'm not criticising but I'm surprised by Jim's defence of Toni, particularly after the Ben and Edd fiasco.

I'm genuinely still in the fence but it doesn't look good for Toni, but I can appreciate tha if you've bought a lot from him then you will want to believe the best

No offence here mate but im a big believer of innocent until proven guilty. Lets face it someone with a very dubious past comes on here posting claims they can't or at least are still to back up. If im wrong im more than happy to hold my hand up and apologize to anyone ive offended there's no ego here to bruise. I would however feel a right **** though.
I've said it before but I'll say it again show me proof, not hearsay, conjecture or theory but proof.