Resealed figure discovery debate - G.Kurtz Palitoy VC Jawa.

[escapist]

Its ashame this discussion is in a thread about the VC Jawa as most people reading from the middle might be under assumption that those are the possilble fakes being discussed when this Toni situation has nothing to do with the thread header in hand.

Maybe the importance of this thread means that Mods should split it off from Jason Joiner's first post?

Though we tend to go off on tangents a lot here!!

 

[JuniorChubb]

Its ashame this discussion is in a thread about the VC Jawa as most people reading from the middle might be under assumption that those are the possilble fakes being discussed when this Toni situation has nothing to do with the thread header in hand.

Only on SWFUK :wink:

Toni's second ebay account thats buying loose mint figures at a pretty high cost says it all.

Got to agree with this, circumstantial but very strong IMO.

 

[paulcalf]

I think it should stay exactly as it is, or simply rename the thread to:
Was about the Palitoy VC Jawa, now about the MOC???!!!

Its ashame this discussion is in a thread about the VC Jawa as most people reading from the middle might be under assumption that those are the possilble fakes being discussed when this Toni situation has nothing to do with the thread header in hand.

Maybe the importance of this thread means that Mods should split it off from Jason Joiner's first post?

Though we tend to go off on tangents a lot here!!

 

[Grant_C]

Happy to change title.

Any requests?

I'd still like to have Palitoy Jawa in it and maybe TONIGATE? MOCGATE?

 

[JuniorChubb]

What about Cardbacks and Bubble-tits?

 

[plantman]

Ive put something a bit more relevant in the title but we may want to create a separate thread for this and move it across, ill leave that to Edd to decide.

 

[mr_palitoy]

I have invited Toni back to give his side of the story on this 2nd ebay account that Joe found.

Watch this space.



Jason

 

[paulcalf]

I predict a short, if any, reply.

Do you think now would be a good time for me to ask him if he has any loose cardbacks to help me complete my collection?

I have invited Toni back to give his side of the story on this 2nd ebay account that Joe found.

Watch this space.



Jason

 

[jedi_masters]

Wow there really is a lot to take in and get your head around in this thread.

All I can say is in glad I only collect Kenner MOC's if this all turns out to be true.

 

[Caswellbot]

I have invited Toni back to give his side of the story on this 2nd ebay account that Joe found.

Watch this space.



Jason

I would have thought he might have replied when he was on this morning.

 

[Dark Sith Lord]

Yes Tonis silence in this thread is deafening! :? :!:

 

[tiefighterboy]

Agreed. And would poon but stupid enough to sell reawaken under his Poon name or would he be best trickling them onto the market under a different name? Perhaps Poon doesn't have the cardbacks? Or the bubbles although I'd imagine they're easier to reproduce.

They would be easier to reproduce in the part of the world he heralds from I believe.

Then why would he not use the same process on his repro's (not the china copies, but his Vlix, Boba and Anakin POTF kits) He already repro's coins cast in the metal.

 

[Caswellbot]

God knows Todd. I'm just making the point that in the east it is generally considered much easier to get fake goods especially plastic products.

 

[wbobafett]

I noticed sth. I am sorry if this is totally BS ...I am really not very much familiar with MOCs and the way they are produced!

I watched this vid over and over again:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFEX1jvSFDo


Looks like the sealing process is like this:

First up there is kind of a "steel mold". In the shape of the bubble. It seems like the "form" can be swapped with others (see arrow). It is more kind of an inserted "form" that has IMO exactly the shape of the double stem blister that will be "put" into it!....right??

Then the bubble with figure is put inside...

Then the cardback is layed on top.....

Then it is pushed into kind of a heat sealing machine (pressure and heat)


Anyway....important to me is the first picture in that progress!
If there is "forms" for each bubbles would mean: The bubble is matching exactly in that form!
I have a seen a few now of the questionable cards where the figure is bigger then the bubble! Wouldn't the exact matching "form" prevent this?? How is it possible to lay the bubble with figure inside this "form" if the figure is actually taller??

Just a note....sth I spotted and thought it might be of interest??

Wolff

 

[Starzone]

I've watched and read all posts with interest and really don't know what to think.

Even though I have been around a long time even this precedes me as Toni already had these for sale when I first visited the major shows in 1991 ish, always heard rumours of backing cards and bubbles but that's all I heard...rumours.

Like I said in an earlier post I have 3 unused Palitoy backing cards in my collection C-3PO, Snowtrooper and Logray and these were bought at a Donington toy & train fair around 1994, I also have a Snowtrooper with the wording "Copy" stamped on it in several places. I purchased them from another seller not Toni but I guess they may have come from Arthur Bailey at one point.

The sheer amount of figures sold over the years blows my mind but if the figure of 25,000 is correct then that's why.

It all seems a mess and to be honest if Jason had made that accusation against me I would be on here all guns blazing and seeking legal advice not failing to respond to questions.......and there are many questions, buying u graded figures on ebay (if true) would concern me, the every bubble type available option and also if Arthur had unused cards and bubbles then where are they now?

Hope it all gets sorted out for the good of the hobby.

 

[Starzone]

One last thing....sealing figures to cards can't be that difficult. I have seen some excellent customs over the years

 

[wrighty]

I am a little lost, as I am new into collecting vintage SW figures, anyone can give me a few line summary?

 

[wbobafett]

I am a little lost, as I am new into collecting vintage SW figures, anyone can give me a few line summary?

Someone threw a fox into a chicken farm...now everyone is running around in panic.....

It is all just assumptions....numbers are scary....evidence is getting thicker.....and in summary: we will all live along with not knowing what exactly happend! :lol:

 

[Bramistuta25]

I am a little lost, as I am new into collecting vintage SW figures, anyone can give me a few line summary?

Someone threw a fox into a chicken farm...now everyone is running around in panic.....

It is all just assumptions....numbers are scary....evidence is getting thicker.....and in summary: we will all live along with not knowing what exactly happend! :lol:

Indeed

 

[x-pack]

I've watched and read all posts with interest and really don't know what to think.

Even though I have been around a long time even this precedes me as Toni already had these for sale when I first visited the major shows in 1991 ish, always heard rumours of backing cards and bubbles but that's all I heard...rumours.

Like I said in an earlier post I have 3 unused Palitoy backing cards in my collection C-3PO, Snowtrooper and Logray and these were bought at a Donington toy & train fair around 1994, I also have a Snowtrooper with the wording "Copy" stamped on it in several places. I purchased them from another seller not Toni but I guess they may have come from Arthur Bailey at one point.

The sheer amount of figures sold over the years blows my mind but if the figure of 25,000 is correct then that's why.

It all seems a mess and to be honest if Jason had made that accusation against me I would be on here all guns blazing and seeking legal advice not failing to respond to questions.......and there are many questions, buying u graded figures on ebay (if true) would concern me, the every bubble type available option and also if Arthur had unused cards and bubbles then where are they now?

Hope it all gets sorted out for the good of the hobby.

It's a good point. If anyone made these accusations against any of us we'd be royally pissed. Maybe people are seeking legal advice. That's one of many possible explanations for silence on the matter.

 

[lee gray]

Tonigate is a good title, I would still buy afa 90 ROTJ graded figures which may or may not have originated from him.

 

[jedisearcher]

I've watched and read all posts with interest and really don't know what to think.

Even though I have been around a long time even this precedes me as Toni already had these for sale when I first visited the major shows in 1991 ish, always heard rumours of backing cards and bubbles but that's all I heard...rumours.

Like I said in an earlier post I have 3 unused Palitoy backing cards in my collection C-3PO, Snowtrooper and Logray and these were bought at a Donington toy & train fair around 1994, I also have a Snowtrooper with the wording "Copy" stamped on it in several places. I purchased them from another seller not Toni but I guess they may have come from Arthur Bailey at one point.

The sheer amount of figures sold over the years blows my mind but if the figure of 25,000 is correct then that's why.

It all seems a mess and to be honest if Jason had made that accusation against me I would be on here all guns blazing and seeking legal advice not failing to respond to questions.......and there are many questions, buying u graded figures on ebay (if true) would concern me, the every bubble type available option and also if Arthur had unused cards and bubbles then where are they now?

Hope it all gets sorted out for the good of the hobby.

It's a good point. If anyone made these accusations against any of us we'd be royally pissed. Maybe people are seeking legal advice. That's one of many possible explanations for silence on the matter.

Although there would be absolutely no problem with that person at least telling us that was the case - like Bill Mcbride had to do on RS recently. As someone else has said, the silence comes across as more damaging than someone coming out fighting imo.

 

[Captainsolo1978]

Just to clarify were footers ever used on German 45 backs?

Thanks for the input Darren. I don't think I'll be collecting Palitoy anymore.

 

[Caswellbot]

Just to clarify were footers ever used on German 45 backs?

Thanks for the input Darren. I don't think I'll be collecting Palitoy anymore.

Its not all palitoys that are in question mate. Just to clarify.

 

[Captainsolo1978]

I know. However the Palitoy logo figures pre 45 back go for silly money. As stated before figures in c7 condition and below are looking better now !

Most of my Carded figures are Kenner. Of my Palitoys four were bought from Toni. This is all really crappy!!!
In the words of Tom Cruise

"I want the truth!"

And please no one answer

"You can't handle the truth!"
Or
"Why can't we all just get along?"

 

[Joseph_Y]

@JoeY: I am not sure what you want to see with a microscope on a heat sealed bubble?? They are heat sealed, originals as well as possible fakes. They will look different...each of them...as you can see on the Palitoy video there was someone inserting them by hand, then pressing them together with a heating machine....for how long?? Every card was pressed different (thinking of the time) so the seals can look different...always. I am afraid you wont find anything to differ the seals. This would have been noticed since ages I guess, am I wrong??

So what maybe can be used is the good old UV light. Plastics that get heated once do age faster. A "newer" seal should be chemically different then an old seal (speaking of the plastic)...that maybe can be seen under UV. But I am sure Afa uses that for spotting ink touch uips...though?!?!??

If they were sealed with different glues or process' then they would look different under a microscope and or UV. That's how AFA/ CIB-Tom Derby double check bubbles that they're not sure of. While examples sent individually have passed muster. Did they look and compare to see if they were sealed differently, or just look to see if it was in the range of what was considered to be an original seal with the info that they had before.
Examining non Toni owned examples next to known Toni owned examples of the same figure and card IMO is part of the key to figuring out if this whole scandal is fact, or just Joiner taking the piss to the entire hobby, and trying to **** with Toni's reputation over a 20 year old deal that Jason missed out on.
Think about it (and no offense meant) Jason, in just about every conversation about him that I've ever heard from anyone, has been considered a fraud by the bulk of the community thru the years, people that know and don't know him alike. Wouldn't throwing a monkey wrench into the heart of the carded collecting community be a fun revenge for all that? Just a thought.

J

 

[wbobafett]

...as said Joe...as far as I do understand it: no glue! Just heat and pressure involved...manually!! :shock: ...which means they can all look different. Only thing would be the "age" of the seal! And that "could" be spotted by UV....but not by a microscope I think! (Remember....I am a bit familiar with aging process of art...though....)

 

[Joseph_Y]

...as said Joe...as far as I do understand it: no glue! Just heat and pressure involved...manually!! :shock: ...which means they can all look different. Only thing would be the "age" of the seal! And that "could" be spotted by UV....but not by a microscope I think! (Remember....I am a bit familiar with aging process of art...though....)

When discussing the seal on an Uzay that a friend was buying from another friend, with Tom recently (yes different than a Palitoy/GM seal) but he went into all of the determining factors on why he felt the seal wasn't completely original, including how the seal showed under both UV and microscope. If the methods weren't on the exact same type of machine, I'd be fairly sure that, when comparing multiple Toni and multiple non Toni figures, they'd find a patern of differences (if they're fake seals).

IF a less controversial source came in with the same information, I'd be less likely to doubt it. To be completely honest. But, here I sit, popcorn at the ready to see where this goes, and toss my .02 in where it might? be helpful.

J

 

[Caswellbot]

It would have to be one hell of a grudge for someone to do that Joe. I guess anything's possible but really after this long? Jason didn't exactly start a thread claiming this, it was dropped in as a more off the cuff comment. Plus reading the comments, the signs are pointing in the other direction at the moment.

 

[**Delboy75**]

Has Toni's website disappeared?