You know when you been Tonied, an oddessy in AFA 90 grading.

[mr_palitoy]

Is it possible to say that Boussh, Lando Skiff, Leia Poncho, never came in bubbles with helmets on outside of trilogo bubbles?

thats why i highlighted this type i never seen before but noone commented

You said that is a 65C. I would imagine that is one of Tonis with a double stem bubble.

cheers Jason

 

[geoffbroccoli]

Hi Jason,

Firstly, a big thanks for all your real efforts in helping collectors everywhere with your detective work and on moving this forward.

However, a few observations from my part.

Firstly, I don't think you can assume just because a genuine used/torn cardback displays the 'twin stem' non sealed areas on the card that it had a twin stem bubble. This genuine sealed Hoth Han 65 back D Palitoy that I have from childhood shows that it has been factory sealed in the machine/die which was obviously set up to hold and seal both double stem AND single stem bubble stock - note the double stem 'gaps' in the seal. If this were torn from the card by my eager hands in the 80s, it too would display twin stem non sealed gaps and let us believe it would have had a twin stem bubble.

Also, do you have a measurement for the 'super wide' toni bubbles? My Obi Wan also bought in the 80s has the squareish corners, and is very clear, just like my hoth Han, but is a wider version...

My Han Hoth is: 96mm high by 35mm wide approx., slightly wider where it meets the card.
My Obi Wan: 98mm high by 42mm wide approx, slightly wider where it meets the card.

Another real sign of a genuine seal for me is the slight inside edge card 'pullback' from the sealing process - evident in both the above genuine figures. Note also I've highlighted this on used cardbacks (excuse my dodgy shaky Paint hand drawing!) that displays the same trait. It's hard to sow in photos, but look at the right had edge here -

Shown here also:

Hope this helps.

 

[finestcomics]

@geoffbroccoli - the theory of the impression left from the "pull back" of the heat sealing is certainly an interesting development, and I've kept it in mind from the time it was first brought up. I'm still on the fence about it being a sure sign of a factory blister seal process. My reasoning for this is that the figures were likely removed from the tray by gravity and not hand removed. Also, the release profile used on the tray would have to have been versatile enough to both attenuate the referring heat, and to create a buffer to protect the plastic from melting. This latter point would have certainly reasoned the cooling time combined with force of gravity as being a reliable measure to have the MOC's pulled away from the blister tray without breaching the seal. If anyone has reason to believe they were hand removed, it certainly would add to the theory.

Apart from this thinking, my 45c Fett has this impression on one of the corners, however when this is weighed against the other things about it which seem off, I'm not prepared to use this single tell as confirmation bias mine isn't a "modern seal" TOC.

 

[geoffbroccoli]

The reason I think it's worth further exploration is that of my five Palitoy 65 Backs, my 3 genuine childhood ones all have this type of seal, and it's not subtle (ie limited to a small area) but predominantly all down the inside right edge and corners, to varying extents, matching the used cardbacks giving that inside line effect. This is not like the litho pull or shift under the bubble seal (the genuine ones don't have this) but my 2 suspect ones I bought on ebay in the last 5 years (Luke Bespin and Hoth) don't have the 'edge lift', but do have what looks like air bubbles under the seal, and some subtle print/litho movement (see here near the Taun Taun's eye)

 

[mr_palitoy]

Have updated my guide to give better guidance about what bubble variations are thought genuine, and which are thought to be Tonis:-

http://www.freewebs.com/mrpalitoy/esb45bcardback.htm

http://www.freewebs.com/mrpalitoy/rotj45ccardback.htm

http://www.freewebs.com/mrpalitoy/rotj65acardback.htm

http://www.freewebs.com/mrpalitoy/rotj65bcardback.htm

http://www.freewebs.com/mrpalitoy/rotj65ccardback.htm

http://www.freewebs.com/mrpalitoy/rotj65dcardback.htm

Have also added clipper stickers to:-

http://www.freewebs.com/mrpalitoy/esb41bcardback.htm

http://www.freewebs.com/mrpalitoy/esb45acardback.htm

http://www.freewebs.com/mrpalitoy/rotj45ccardback.htm

Hope that helps everyone figure out what is genuine and what isn't.

cheers Jason

 

[spoons]

Hi Jason,

Firstly, a big thanks for all your real efforts in helping collectors everywhere with your detective work and on moving this forward.

However, a few observations from my part.

Firstly, I don't think you can assume just because a genuine used/torn cardback displays the 'twin stem' non sealed areas on the card that it had a twin stem bubble. This genuine sealed Hoth Han 65 back D Palitoy that I have from childhood shows that it has been factory sealed in the machine/die which was obviously set up to hold and seal both double stem AND single stem bubble stock - note the double stem 'gaps' in the seal. If this were torn from the card by my eager hands in the 80s, it too would display twin stem non sealed gaps and let us believe it would have had a twin stem bubble.

Also, do you have a measurement for the 'super wide' toni bubbles? My Obi Wan also bought in the 80s has the squareish corners, and is very clear, just like my hoth Han, but is a wider version...

My Han Hoth is: 96mm high by 35mm wide approx., slightly wider where it meets the card.
My Obi Wan: 98mm high by 42mm wide approx, slightly wider where it meets the card.

Another real sign of a genuine seal for me is the slight inside edge card 'pullback' from the sealing process - evident in both the above genuine figures. Note also I've highlighted this on used cardbacks (excuse my dodgy shaky Paint hand drawing!) that displays the same trait. It's hard to sow in photos, but look at the right had edge here -

Shown here also:

Hope this helps.

Very useful and obvious in hindsight :roll:

Makes me more convinced the double stem theory on 45b cards is wrong - several bubbles were in play at the same time

At the moment the only tells I'm convinced by are crap seals. And as Jason said time will prove those (doesn't help buyers today though)

Who knows what I will think tomorrow

 

[momike]

Very interesting Jason, the bubble lifts, splits/creases, and oversized bubbles all seem fairly damning


I believe the tri Fetts to be fake based on the above, but we have seen legitimate late European figs on early cardbacks so some legit Tri Fetts may be out there - would also explain the numbers for a supposedly rare fig

We have also seen different bubble types on the same card - maybe double stemmed are most plentiful but not exclusive?

I always wondered why i never saw the light blue fett on a poor card, they always seem to be really nice :?

I was thinking about this, i like a lot of collectors really like the light blue boba fett and know that he is a very hard figure to find in good condition (loose) regardless of paint combination, all of his seem to be the unpainted knee and in really nice condition, do you think he picked these up in bulk many years ago, left over stock maybe?

 

[Grant_C]

The total deal offered included more than just card backs and bubbles. There was also tons of figures and MOCs.

 

[momike]

I thought the list only had 2 loose fetts in it

 

[Grant_C]

This is a partial list. Speaking to people who were offered the same deal, it appears that there was boxes of stuff.

The rumour is that the deal was worth £/$ 10-15k

Who knows :?

 

[momike]

Oh right :| Either way he came across some minty light blue fetts along the way

 

[spoons]

This is a partial list. Speaking to people who were offered the same deal, it appears that there was boxes of stuff.

The rumour is that the deal was worth £/$ 10-15k

Who knows :?

Boxes of carded stuff too?

It's been said many times but the missing sheet is key - I'd bet that there are lots of Fetts on it.

How do the Fett bubbles and seals compare to the other supposed fakes?

 

[Grant_C]

That's a good point as well- no one mentioned if there was MIB as part of the deal.

 

[mr_palitoy]

AFA site is back up.

Jul 25, 2006
May 24, 2005
Feb 09, 2006
Mar 15, 2005
Nov 06, 2006
Sep 20, 2005
Feb 02, 2006
Sep 17, 2007
Mar 16, 2005
Feb 07, 2005
Dec 14, 2005
Jun 10, 2005
Nov 29, 2006
Sep 17, 2007
Feb 03, 2005
Sep 20, 2005
Oct 18, 2007

Grading dates for my cards between 2005 and 2007, so are at least between 6-8 years old.
Which is what I figured.

cheers Jason

 

[lee gray]

This is a partial list. Speaking to people who were offered the same deal, it appears that there was boxes of stuff.

The rumour is that the deal was worth £/$ 10-15k

Who knows :?

Boxes of carded stuff too?

It's been said many times but the missing sheet is key - I'd bet that there are lots of Fetts on it.

How do the Fett bubbles and seals compare to the other supposed fakes?

Yeah if it was a factory clear out and there were tons of boxed items then there had to be tons of carded figures too, not just unused cardbacks or otherwise it would have just been leftover materials that wasnt put together and that wasnt the case. although again you just have to look how Toni has conducted himself shouts guilty and really if some are genuine he should atleast own up and say which ones are just out of courtesy

 

[mr_palitoy]

This is a partial list. Speaking to people who were offered the same deal, it appears that there was boxes of stuff.

The rumour is that the deal was worth £/$ 10-15k

Who knows :?

Boxes of carded stuff too?

It's been said many times but the missing sheet is key - I'd bet that there are lots of Fetts on it.

How do the Fett bubbles and seals compare to the other supposed fakes?

Yeah if it was a factory clear out and there were tons of boxed items then there had to be tons of carded figures too, not just unused cardbacks or otherwise it would have just been leftover materials that wasnt put together and that wasnt the case. although again you just have to look how Toni has conducted himself shouts guilty and really if some are genuine he should atleast own up and say which ones are just out of courtesy

Time is our friend here, the genuine MOC from factory will stay attached, the Toni sealed ones will drop off.

cheers Jason

 

[mr_palitoy]

Ok, have rewritten the 45b, 45c and 65d with single stem bubbles with embossed numbers in the correct places.

http://www.freewebs.com/mrpalitoy/esb45bcardback.htm

http://www.freewebs.com/mrpalitoy/rotj45ccardback.htm

http://www.freewebs.com/mrpalitoy/rotj65dcardback.htm

cheers Jason

 

[palitoyjunky]

Great work Jason. Really well documented. Youve made some excellent observations there and I agree with virtually all of it. I would however just add that I think you mentioned "bubble splits" on a couple of bubbles but they look more like excess plastic like a pinch? If so have seen this sort of thing on many genuine examples. This doesnt change much at all in the overall picture though.

Yes I too have seen this on many kosher examples, had a Palitoy 41 back 2-1B that had this excess plastic on two corners.


Great work again Jason. This must have been horrible for you to uncover and I do feel for you.