You know when you been Tonied, an oddessy in AFA 90 grading.

[mr_palitoy]

The other good news from my analysis of my AFA 90s is that I don't think GM/Palitoy collecting is blighted forever.

The seals on my Tonis bought and made in 2012 are much better and firmly attached than my AFA 90s bought in 2006/2007 and graded
some time before that (afa database waiting for exact dates). And looking at my limelight pictures which were taken after I bought them, and
presumably only a few years after they were graded, the seals have deteriorated significantly since then. They wouldn't have graded in
their current condition at the grades they did in my opinion. Also, I have a bunch of cards bought from Toni in 2007 where the bubbles fell off.

Which leads me to the conclusion that Toni's bubbles will all fall off in time, so assuming that production has stopped, in 10 years time
the blight of Toni's cards will have gone as the seals will all have lifted.



Jason

 

[RKW1138]

I'm not sure you can be so confident that the wrong bubble type was used. It would certainly appear that the German/Dutch
market preferred the double stem blister but I can probably find just as many examples of a Trilogo blister used on both 45 & 65 back cards as double stem.

Here is a picture showing Trilogo bubbles with price stickers. The Hoth Leia has a Tesco price sticker.

If we had to say which cards have the highest likely hood of being modern seals then I would say any card with the wider looking rectangular bubble.
However there are genuine shop purchased examples of rectangular bubbles so we shouldn't quickly say they are all fake.

Here is a picture that I believe illustrates what is genuine and what is not.

A close up photo showing the bottom of store purchased Obiwan & Hoth Han. Both bubbles are the same width but the coloured backing of Han Solo is wider so the bubble would have to be centralized to cover the entire yellow area of the card.

Now all the cards from ToyToni have the bubble centralised which makes them look wider than the known genuine examples.
In the photo below you will see the difference in bubble contact area between the ToyToni Luke and a shop purchased
AT-AT commander.

At first I thought the area of the bubble that the figure lies in was wider on the ToyToni but without having any in hand to measure I'm not so sure.
I'm thinking that they are the same bubble but the difference is that a bubble that sits in the heat sealer bubble retainer has its sides squeezed in.
Where as if you were just manually laying a bubble onto the card the plastic would be relaxed and flared out making it look wider.

 

[Jez]

Every cloud...

 

[mr_palitoy]

Appreciate that a couple of people have said that the bubbles crimps/splits that I attributed to Tonis bubbles only also apply to other genuine MOCs, so
we can't use that against Toni.

cheers Jason

 

[mr_palitoy]

I'm not sure you can be so confident that the wrong bubble type was used. It would certainly appear that the German/Dutch
market preferred the double stem blister but I can probably find just as many examples of a Trilogo blister used on both 45 & 65 back cards as double stem.

Here is a picture showing Trilogo bubbles with price stickers. The Hoth Leia has a Tesco price sticker.

If we had to say which cards have the highest likely hood of being modern seals then I would say any card with the wider looking rectangular bubble.
However there are genuine shop purchased examples of rectangular bubbles so we shouldn't quickly say they are all fake.

Here is a picture that I believe illustrates what is genuine and what is not.

A close up photo showing the bottom of store purchased Obiwan & Hoth Han. Both bubbles are the same width but the coloured backing of Han Solo is wider so the bubble would have to be centralized to cover the entire yellow area of the card.

Now all the cards from ToyToni have the bubble centralised which makes them look wider than the known genuine examples.
In the photo below you will see the difference in bubble contact area between the ToyToni Luke and a shop purchased
AT-AT commander.

At first I thought the area of the bubble that the figure lies in was wider on the ToyToni but without having any in hand to measure I'm not so sure.
I'm thinking that they are the same bubble but the difference is that a bubble that sits in the heat sealer bubble retainer has its sides squeezed in.
Where as if you were just manually laying a bubble onto the card the plastic would be relaxed and flared out making it look wider.

I appreciate that tri logo style bubbles can be found on shop sold cards as well as double stemmed bubbles. My used C3P0 Removeable Limbs
Palitoy 65d cardback has a tri logo bubble impression on it. But these super wide/super strong/super clear rectangular bubbles used by Toni on
Palitoy cards are not the same as Tri Logo bubbles, and have not been seen on any shop sold MOCs or used cardbacks that I have seen.

cheers Jason

 

[RKW1138]

I appreciate that tri logo style bubbles can be found on shop sold cards as well as double stemmed bubbles. My used C3P0 Removeable Limbs
Palitoy 65d cardback has a tri logo bubble impression on it. But these super wide/super strong/super clear rectangular bubbles used by Toni on
Palitoy cards are not the same as Tri Logo bubbles, and have not been seen on any shop sold MOCs or used cardbacks that I have seen.

cheers Jason

Correct they are not Trilogo bubbles as they don't have right angle edges. The Obiwan, Hoth Han and AT-AT commander have rounded edges and are shop purchased from one of the forum members so the rectangular bubbles do exist.

 

[mr_palitoy]

I appreciate that tri logo style bubbles can be found on shop sold cards as well as double stemmed bubbles. My used C3P0 Removeable Limbs
Palitoy 65d cardback has a tri logo bubble impression on it. But these super wide/super strong/super clear rectangular bubbles used by Toni on
Palitoy cards are not the same as Tri Logo bubbles, and have not been seen on any shop sold MOCs or used cardbacks that I have seen.

cheers Jason

Correct they are not Trilogo bubbles as they don't have right angle edges. The Obiwan, Hoth Han and AT-AT commander have rounded edges and are shop purchased from one of the forum members so the rectangular bubbles do exist.

There are a few examples, but the majority of used cardbacks are double stemmed bubbles, almost all in the samples I have shown here.
And for the figures I have shown here with super wide/super strong/super clear rectangular bubbles, I cannot see a single used cardback
or shop sold MOC with the same bubble that Toni used.

cheers Jason

 

[RKW1138]

I don't disagree that they are hard to find. I think ToyToni was probably the only dealer with any stock of them.

I don't know if Lee Cooper is a member here but here's a link to some good photos.
http://www.vectis.co.uk/Page/ViewAuctionLots.aspx?AuctionId=462&DayNo=1&Section=7232&Start=0

I noticed he had 4 Boba Fetts which had 3 different bubbles and three different Fett's all with the same red blob print error.
What are the odds of that? :lol:

 

[mr_palitoy]

I don't disagree that they are hard to find. I think ToyToni was probably the only dealer with any stock of them.

I don't know if Lee Cooper is a member here but here's a link to some good photos.
http://www.vectis.co.uk/Page/ViewAuctionLots.aspx?AuctionId=462&DayNo=1&Section=7232&Start=0

I noticed he had 4 Boba Fetts which had 3 different bubbles and three different Fett's all with the same red blob print error.
What are the odds of that? :lol:

Have looked through all of Lee's auctions. A mixture of double stemmed bubbles, genuine rectangular narrower bubbles with more rounded corners on non
Toni cards, and on Toni cards they are all Toni bubbles and are indeed Tonis.

So that confirms my world view.

cheers Jason

 

[finestcomics]

I'm curious to hear people's theories out in the open about how these cards were applied.

I have some ideas, but generally there are two things lacking in the manner the seal was applied on the cards.

They are lacking a) controlled heat (i.e. exactly measured temperature); b) uniform and distributed heat; c) distributed pressure (i.e. weight). I based this on a combination of air gaps in the blister and the stark difference between the peelback factor of a breached Toni and a breached shop bought Pali MOC's.

Seeing those iron marks on the front of the card leads me to believe those were very early jobs, using the front of the card to heat seal the blisters. The ones with a smooth, yet unevenly sealed (appearing almost to be lifting) leads me to believe those were sealed from the back of the card.

In both cases, I'm leaning more to having a hacked ironing board at home rather than access to a proper blister sealing machine, mainly because the lack of pressure applied during the heat seal is practically non-existent.

 

[Grant_C]

If they are heat sealed using an iron, maybe theres a heat conductor between the iron and the card that still heats up but protects the card.

 

[mr_palitoy]

I'm curious to hear people's theories out in the open about how these cards were applied.

I have some ideas, but generally there are two things lacking in the manner the seal was applied on the cards.

They are lacking a) controlled heat (i.e. exactly measured temperature); b) uniform and distributed heat; c) distributed pressure (i.e. weight). I based this on the combination of air gaps in the blister and the way the stark difference between breached Toni and breached shop bought Pali MOC's.

Seeing those iron marks on the front of the card leads me to believe those were very early jobs, using the front of the card to heat seal the blisters. The ones with a smooth, yet unevenly sealed (showing almost like early lifting) leads me to believe those were sealed from the back of the card.

In both cases, I'm leaning more to having a hacked ironing board at home rather than access to a proper blister sealing machine.

They definitely improve over time, iron marks only appearing on the earlier ones. They all lack sticking power though, and will come unstuck over time
as can be seen on my examples. Later ones may be using a T-shirt press or similar.

cheers Jason

 

[finestcomics]

If they are heat sealed using an iron, maybe theres a heat conductor between the iron and the card that still heats up but protects the card.

The cardbacks were coated with an adhesive that is heat activated. Based on the temperature required to activate the adhesive on the blister, direct contact with the heating appliance would melt the graphics (ink) and paper onto the metal within seconds of making contact. Whether it was ironed from the front or back, you would need a heat buffer on both the front and the back as it would need to be laying on something to apply the blister.

 

[finestcomics]

I'm curious to hear people's theories out in the open about how these cards were applied.

I have some ideas, but generally there are two things lacking in the manner the seal was applied on the cards.

They are lacking a) controlled heat (i.e. exactly measured temperature); b) uniform and distributed heat; c) distributed pressure (i.e. weight). I based this on the combination of air gaps in the blister and the way the stark difference between breached Toni and breached shop bought Pali MOC's.

Seeing those iron marks on the front of the card leads me to believe those were very early jobs, using the front of the card to heat seal the blisters. The ones with a smooth, yet unevenly sealed (showing almost like early lifting) leads me to believe those were sealed from the back of the card.

In both cases, I'm leaning more to having a hacked ironing board at home rather than access to a proper blister sealing machine.

They definitely improve over time, iron marks only appearing on the earlier ones. They all lack sticking power though, and will come unstuck over time
as can be seen on my examples. Later ones may be using a T-shirt press or similar.

cheers Jason

On the point about lacking "sticking power", here's what I'm stuck on. Whether the set-up he was using was lacking the precision to heat seal (i.e the right combination of measured heat with pressure or weight), or whether the profile of the adhesive coating on the "unused" cardbacks had a time limited shelf life, like a "best before" date and were meant to be used within a year of production to achieve optimal seal, and/or were not meant to be used for heat sealing 10, 20, or even 30 years after they were produced.

 

[RKW1138]

I'm curious to hear people's theories out in the open about how these cards were applied.

I have some ideas, but generally there are two things lacking in the manner the seal was applied on the cards.

They are lacking a) controlled heat (i.e. exactly measured temperature); b) uniform and distributed heat; c) distributed pressure (i.e. weight). I based this on the combination of air gaps in the blister and the way the stark difference between breached Toni and breached shop bought Pali MOC's.

Seeing those iron marks on the front of the card leads me to believe those were very early jobs, using the front of the card to heat seal the blisters. The ones with a smooth, yet unevenly sealed (showing almost like early lifting) leads me to believe those were sealed from the back of the card.

In both cases, I'm leaning more to having a hacked ironing board at home rather than access to a proper blister sealing machine.

They definitely improve over time, iron marks only appearing on the earlier ones. They all lack sticking power though, and will come unstuck over time
as can be seen on my examples. Later ones may be using a T-shirt press or similar.

cheers Jason

On the point about lacking "sticking power", here's what I'm stuck on. Whether the set-up he was using was lacking the precision to heat seal (i.e the right combination of measured heat with pressure or weight), or whether the profile of the adhesive coating on the "unused" cardbacks had a time limited shelf life, like a "best before" date and were meant to be used within a year of production to achieve optimal seal, and/or were not meant to be used for heat sealing 10, 20, or even 30 years after they were produced.

From what I read up on heat sealing the adheasive is hydroscopic so it does have a shelf life.

 

[RKW1138]

I'm curious to hear people's theories out in the open about how these cards were applied.

I have some ideas, but generally there are two things lacking in the manner the seal was applied on the cards.

They are lacking a) controlled heat (i.e. exactly measured temperature); b) uniform and distributed heat; c) distributed pressure (i.e. weight). I based this on the combination of air gaps in the blister and the way the stark difference between breached Toni and breached shop bought Pali MOC's.

Seeing those iron marks on the front of the card leads me to believe those were very early jobs, using the front of the card to heat seal the blisters. The ones with a smooth, yet unevenly sealed (showing almost like early lifting) leads me to believe those were sealed from the back of the card.

In both cases, I'm leaning more to having a hacked ironing board at home rather than access to a proper blister sealing machine.

They definitely improve over time, iron marks only appearing on the earlier ones. They all lack sticking power though, and will come unstuck over time
as can be seen on my examples. Later ones may be using a T-shirt press or similar.

cheers Jason

On the point about lacking "sticking power", here's what I'm stuck on. Whether the set-up he was using was lacking the precision to heat seal (i.e the right combination of measured heat with pressure or weight), or whether the profile of the adhesive coating on the "unused" cardbacks had a time limited shelf life, like a "best before" date and were meant to be used within a year of production to achieve optimal seal, and/or were not meant to be used for heat sealing 10, 20, or even 30 years after they were produced.

From what I read up on heat sealing the adhesive is hydroscopic so it does have a shelf life.

 

[paulcalf]

Here is a childhood bought Leia Boussh 65B to compare to the Toni bought 65C one below, I hope it is of use.

Delete if no use.

Next up is an AFA 90 65c Leia Boussh. Exciting one this, it's not been seen on my palitoy cardback guide
before and I've had an example for years! It's also a direct buy from Toy Toni via toytoni.com in 2007.

Serial number is 17885521. AFA site down so don't know grading date.

Some very dodgy sealing at the base of the single stem and bubble lifting at the edges of the bubble,
sign of being a Toni seal.

No used cardback to compare against, but the shop sold examples are double stemmed with a
separate compartment for the hat, so Toni has used the wrong bubble again.

 

[Grant_C]

Is it possible to say that Boussh, Lando Skiff, Leia Poncho, never came in bubbles with helmets on outside of trilogo bubbles?

 

[finestcomics]

They definitely improve over time, iron marks only appearing on the earlier ones. They all lack sticking power though, and will come unstuck over time
as can be seen on my examples. Later ones may be using a T-shirt press or similar.

cheers Jason

On the point about lacking "sticking power", here's what I'm stuck on. Whether the set-up he was using was lacking the precision to heat seal (i.e the right combination of measured heat with pressure or weight), or whether the profile of the adhesive coating on the "unused" cardbacks had a time limited shelf life, like a "best before" date and were meant to be used within a year of production to achieve optimal seal, and/or were not meant to be used for heat sealing 10, 20, or even 30 years after they were produced.

From what I read up on heat sealing the adhesive is hydroscopic so it does have a shelf life.

That's what I would have thought. Thanks for confirming. The other angle I've considered, and this came from a post by Ross on RS - he noticed a "thicker" wall on the blister of his Yoda. I wonder if self-sticking "modern" or "repro" bubbles like the one Poon used on the custom Fett (in TOC's, the wider rectangular ones) were chosen to offset the degrading adhesive, and that's why we see a smoother application to the cardback, with less signs of damage to the card, but also less than ideal "permanent" seal. The way the blisters lose their shape and form around the corners leaves me thinking he overexposed quite a few MOC's and figures in the trial and error process. Especially if he had to switch gears and start using modern blisters at some point. We should be seeing some signs of referring heat (melt) on the figures, blisters (the bottom stem of the Leia is an example).

 

[lee gray]

Is it possible to say that Boussh, Lando Skiff, Leia Poncho, never came in bubbles with helmets on outside of trilogo bubbles?

thats why i highlighted this type i never seen before but noone commented