You know when you been Tonied, an oddessy in AFA 90 grading.

[mr_palitoy]

Last up is an AFA 90 Palitoy 45c Imperial TIE Fighter Pilot.

Serial number is 10782984. Grading date Oct 18, 2007.

Signs of bubble lifting on a poorly attached bubble, sure sign of a Toni.

This is a used cardback.

This is another used cardback.

So Toni has used the right bubble for once, a double stemmed one. But he has sealed the gap
between the two stems, which isn't sealed on the used cardbacks. Nice try Toni!

 

[mr_palitoy]

Summary
======

So, what have we learned?

In 23 examples, Toni has used the correct bubble, double stem, 3 times.
Almost all of his bubbles are the wrong type.
His super wide, super strong, super clear rectangular bubbles are not seen on shop sold cards.
All of his seals are very weak and show signs of lifting.
His bubbles have flaws on some cards.
AFA don't know their arse from their elbow on some of these graded examples.

I invite comments on what I have posted now.

cheers Jason

 

[Grant_C]

Thanks for posting this mate.

Be great to everyone else post theirs here. 8)

 

[Jez]

Thank you Jason for your time, patience and honesty in this matter.
I feel truly sorry for you, discovering that you have been sold these suspicious examples.
The work you have done for the community in analysing these MOCs is amazing you deserve a medal.
Thanks once again Mr Palitoy

 

[x-wingMark]

Good work Jason.

I have checked my opened card backs for 45b, 45c and 65.

They all have the double stem markings like your card backs. I can put some photos up but I think your evidence above already proves this and confirms Toni has used the wrong bubbles.

Thanks again Jason and I feel for you with the time and money you have put into this.

 

[Caswellbot]

Great work Jason. Really well documented. Youve made some excellent observations there and I agree with virtually all of it. I would however just add that I think you mentioned "bubble splits" on a couple of bubbles but they look more like excess plastic like a pinch? If so have seen this sort of thing on many genuine examples. This doesnt change much at all in the overall picture though.


Great work again Jason. This must have been horrible for you to uncover and I do feel for you.

 

[aussiejames]

Were the large square bubbles used in shop sold items? How many different width double stem bubbles are there?

here's an extra wide double stem

 

[General Kahn]

Just a small observation. The FB Luke has the flat tipped lightsaber, these were early sabers, seems odd to be with such a late figure which probably confirms the worst.

 

[mr_palitoy]

Just a small observation. The FB Luke has the flat tipped lightsaber, these were early sabers, seems odd to be with such a late figure which probably confirms the worst.

This another card with two figure variations on the same card (blonde hair and brown hair) which is always worrying. Though brown hair is generally seen on 65d and 70bc/70cc trilogo cards so I thought the opposite would be true, i.e. the figure is from later cards and seen on 45c to early?

Maybe the figure has had a replacement saber fitting, which would explain an early saber on a later figure? (Don't know much about sabers so help me out here!)

cheers Jason

 

[spoons]

Very interesting Jason, the bubble lifts, splits/creases, and oversized bubbles all seem fairly damning


I believe the tri Fetts to be fake based on the above, but we have seen legitimate late European figs on early cardbacks so some legit Tri Fetts may be out there - would also explain the numbers for a supposedly rare fig

We have also seen different bubble types on the same card - maybe double stemmed are most plentiful but not exclusive?

 

[mr_palitoy]

I have eliminated 65A and 65B cards from the Toy Toni Matrix. All my examples and the ones I can find on google images are 65C. So if you have the Nien Nunb
offer on the back you are safe, if you have the Chewbacca offer you are not. It appears that Logray and Leia Boushh can only be found as 65C on Toy Toni stock,
both of these card/figure combos were thought not to exist until I looked at mt Tonis and googled an AFA graded Logray on the web.

I have update my guide to reflect this and also to highlight that the sub variations 45CC, 45CN, 65CG and 65CN are not from Toni's stock.

This should further help to die down affected cards and help AFA/UKG to make some informed choices when cleansing their databases if they choose to use my guide.

cheers Jason

 

[aussiejames]

In regards to Logray 65C I wonder why the cardbacks were printed at all?

 

[itfciain]

Jason - this is fantastic work - and to be honest when you break down each card as you do then it is clear and obvious that these cards & bubble combinations are unique to card sold by Toni - things like the Leia Boushh and Lando Skiff being sold without separate helmet bubbles now become blatantly obvious - as does the fact that shop worn card backs all clearly show that these were released with double stemmed bubbles.

For any doubters out there I think that this is 3 pages of pretty conclusive evidence that something dodgy has happened

 

[finestcomics]

Great work Jason. This is the way I pictured a proper visual run-down of fake versus legitimate MOC's.

Just a few notes. Those lines you saw on the corners of the cards are likely "crimps" or "folds" in the plastic, which are manufacturing errors. Now I don't want to place too much emphasis on this, but I wouldn't necessarily call them "defects" as much as manufacturing anomalies. Also, in paper, you do get something very similar happening (more commonly referred to as "manufacturing creases"), and provided it is an inconspicuous area of the cover (or interior pages) it is not really considered a "defect" which should be deducted from a final grade.

There were a few cards where you could see fleks (paper and ink loss) on the side of the card nearest the blister. In my opinion, that is a sign that those cards were overexposed to heat.

There is also a single stem bubble where you could see the blister melting but not making contact to the card, and on the Gam guard which is showing a loss of form. It is in my opinion that the method being used to heat seal these cards was done in a manner which exceeded the temperature required to heat seal the blister to the cardback, and the melting or shape form loss of the blister are signs of referring heat. One other hunch that reinforces this is that I'm thinking larger bubbles were used because he might have been damaging actual figures on more narrower blisters because he didn't know how to control the heat in a temperature and area specific manner of the MOC.

The most obvious sign he wasn't using the correct application of heat for me is that he wasn't getting the same factory ahdesive seal through and through as evidenced by the cardback comparisons of Toni cards with shop or original MOC's.

 

[edd_jedi]

Amazing work Jason, as others have said when laid out like this rather than in a 150+ page thread, it becomes much more his job to disprove it than ours to prove it.

 

[lee gray]

I wonder why Toni put the helmet on the head of Leia and not on all lando's , it would indeed be strange to see these on different bubbles than the norm, where did the leia boushh bubble come from though, has it been used on any other figures or is it a custom made bubble ?

If bubble had not been used anywhere else though then how did it manage to get graded as would have looked odd.

Pity we all never had hindsight and thought about things more in detail before Jason Joiner mentioned it as less people could have got scammed....hindsight is no good now though

People just took these odd variations at face value as would not expect such a scam.

have you checked out this lando with twin stem bubble with no helmet compartment which is also on a 65C

 

[General Kahn]

This another card with two figure variations on the same card (blonde hair and brown hair) which is always worrying. Though brown hair is generally seen on 65d and 70bc/70cc trilogo cards so I thought the opposite would be true, i.e. the figure is from later cards and seen on 45c to early?

Maybe the figure has had a replacement saber fitting, which would explain an early saber on a later figure? (Don't know much about sabers so help me out here!)

cheers Jason

The earliest sabers of course where the DT sabers, these had a flat end. The mold had a recess at the end where a pin was laid which created the hollow cavity in the saber, once the DT design was scrapped, the molds where used simply without the pin, the pin recess is what created the thin tip. The flat tip still remained. At some point, either new old where produced or the original where possibly re-tooled giving a rounded end to the saber. I may be wrong, but I have always considered flat ended lightsabers as early productions, often backed up by the fact that many are lettered on the hilt.

The point being, I don't collect MOC's, but to me seeing a flat tipped saber this late in the game on a no COO Luke seems very unusual, the finer point being, if TT has been repacking these, he may have simply added the first sabe to hand.

On another note, I have a Lando Skiff Palitoy ROJ 65 D which has a twin stem bubble with the seperate helmet section and has residue from a price sticker so hopefully o.k. (It's the 1st MOC I have ever bought and I bought it about 2 days beofre this whole TT thing broke out )

 

[spoons]

Jason, what's your opinion on 65Ds? You don't mention them in the top post on this page

 

[mr_palitoy]

Jason, what's your opinion on 65Ds? You don't mention them in the top post on this page

Yes I do, I mention hothtrooper, c3po removeable limbs, luke hoth in the cards I analysed.

cheers Jason

 

[mr_palitoy]

Jason, what's your opinion on 65Ds? You don't mention them in the top post on this page

Yes I do, I mention hothtrooper, c3po removeable limbs, luke hoth in the cards I analysed.

I originally tarred 65a/65b/65c with the same brush, bur realised after looking at my MOCs that is was only 65c's that came from Toni.

cheers Jason