Resealed figure discovery debate - G.Kurtz Palitoy VC Jawa.

[finestcomics]

First of all it is only certain PALITOY cards that are affected not all,I saw the JAWA and it looked authentic to me,it also came from a different source than TT,and to be honest with you I think AFA and UKG are in it to make money not to protect the hobbies integrity,If they were you would have thought the would have had more of an input than they have.

For what it's worth, these are businesses with a bottom line. You won't get a debate from me on that point. However in fairness, AFA has responded to the concerns outlined through my open letter in manner I deem fair, given the circumstances. I have yet to hear from UKG.

As far as deeming either more capable than the other in grading sealed toys, this is an anomalous example that is too complicated to pin responsibility on either company, especially when people who are in the business of appraising and offering assurances on toys won't touch this with a ten foot pole.

My request that Joiner sign his name to a document explaining Toni's MOC's are fake/counterfeit stands, and to my point that we'll never likely see him do this, I would love to be proven wrong.

Taking this full-circle, its about the suspicion creep, and quite frankly whether 100 people say the Pali VCJ is legit, it's really about the avoidance of the questions and doubt on "suspicious" MOC's at time of resale that is motivation enough for me to steer clear.

 

[Hothrebel]

Hi I totally understand what you are saying,this will damage the hobby probably beyond fixing for certain card types,I just wanted to make it clear that most PALITOY card types are quite legitimate,like you say it is down to people's opinions

 

[mr_palitoy]

Toni watch update. My man on the ground in Brighton saw Toni a few days ago. He has removed the suspect Palitoy C3PO Removable Limbs
MOC from his cabinet at his stall, leaving a beat up Bib Fortuna and an Ewok. Toni laughed off the suggestion that he knew anything about
unused cardbacks. He has also threatened to Jump off Beachy Head in another encounter.

cheers Jason

 

[jawa75]

hi everyone, im new to this forum and am reasonably new to collecting but am one of the probably hundreds of people affected by this. i would like to say a massive thank you to everyone who has blown this wide open. i have never posted on any forums before but as i watched this develop i knew i directly and indirectly had two of these questionable cards from toni.

just to let everyone know i was just looking through some new ebayuk listings when i found this.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/UKG-AFA-GRADED-VINTAGE-STAR-WARS-20-BACK-MECCANO-JAWA-UKG-85-/251423832401?pt=UK_ToysGames_ActionFigures_ActionFigures_JN&hash=item3a8a073951

Now whilst i know this this is not one of the figures on the list i think his activity is still interesting and the questionable mocs conspicuous for there absence from here and his toytoni website. (strangely removed over the last 48 hours)

he's just listed this and several other items. looks like someones getting itchy feet. id certainly agree it looks like toyphoni is going to do a runner on us all.

anyway, my two questionable affected cards are a rotj c3po removable limbs and imperial stormtrooper rotj.

If there was some way to get all our affected mocs together to photograph i feel the sheer volume of people and figures affected and the information that has been gathered so far would leave the police no option but to investigate this man further.

Im going to dig out both of my mocs tmrw so will post on my findings.

 

[RKW1138]

From what I can see it looks like the General Mill's 45's are the majority of questionable card backs but the only sensible thing AFA/UKG can do at this moment and have done (AFA at least) is quarantine everything on the JJ list.

The one thing this whole exercise has shown me is just how little is actually know about the European production. This is likely because it spreads a bigger market but there are just so many unknowns. I think you would have had to of been a young adult collecting at the time to know just exactly what was on store shelves at any time. I don't know if Hasbro would have archived any of the Palitoy documentation or just binned it.

There is one bit of research that the community can all focus on and that is the mystery of the two dimples at the top of the blister. This is something easily spotted and those with MOC collections should try to find things in common and see if they exist on any store purchased examples.

 

[RKW1138]

Toni laughed off the suggestion that he knew anything about
unused cardbacks. He has also threatened to Jump off Beachy Head in another encounter.

Funny that considering he did sell them to at least two dealers. Selective memory or just old age?

 

[thirdfloor]

I wouldn't like more than to see Jason Joiner sign his name to a downloadable document that I can use as evidence that Toni's MOC's are fake or counterfeits, and even though he's the only person who is really convinced that these are modern seals, I doubt he would stick his neck out. Stranger things have happened, so if by some miracle he's willing to do this, we've got ourselves tickets to the main event.

I'm not quite sure why you are interested in getting a signed document. His posts on this thread have been done with full disclosure of his real name and not just under his username "ACE" so there has been no Deepthroat action happening here. He has also gone as far as meeting up with people from this site in person to address this issue so he wouldn't be able to say that someone was using his name on here and mis-representing him with these claims. He has also stated that he would provide information and items to any authorities if any type of case gets persued. I can only assume that you would want that signed downloadable document because you are still on the fence as to whether Jason is just making things up to get back at TONI for an undisclosed problem between the two of them from the past and you feel that the signed document would put him in a corner to admit he was lying to avoid slander charges. I think this thread is as valid as any signed document and could be used in court in the same manner. If I'm wrong for why you would want it just let me know, I'm only guessing as to why you'd need that at this point.
With all the information in this thread that has been accumulated from people other than JJ I don't see how it would even matter if JJ did have a motive and was doing this as revenge. As it's been said many times it's TONI's own actions that are the most incriminating at this point. With his latest actions of removing stock/evidence from his site and his continued silence and lack of defence I don't see Jason as being his biggest problem any longer, he is his own biggest problem now.
With no disrespect meant to JJ, I think all collectors would prefer for JJ to be the liar in this scenario because that would be the best case senario. Every one would be able to keep, enjoy and resell their AFA 90's for what they paid for or more. But it's not like you can put the blinders on and pretend certain things don't add up.

 

[finestcomics]

I wouldn't like more than to see Jason Joiner sign his name to a downloadable document that I can use as evidence that Toni's MOC's are fake or counterfeits, and even though he's the only person who is really convinced that these are modern seals, I doubt he would stick his neck out. Stranger things have happened, so if by some miracle he's willing to do this, we've got ourselves tickets to the main event.

I'm not quite sure why you are interested in getting a signed document. His posts on this thread have been done with full disclosure of his real name and not just under his username "ACE" so there has been no Deepthroat action happening here. He has also gone as far as meeting up with people from this site in person to address this issue so he wouldn't be able to say that someone was using his name on here and mis-representing him with these claims. He has also stated that he would provide information and items to any authorities if any type of case gets persued. I can only assume that you would want that signed downloadable document because you are still on the fence as to whether Jason is just making things up to get back at TONI for an undisclosed problem between the two of them from the past and you feel that the signed document would put him in a corner to admit he was lying to avoid slander charges. I think this thread is as valid as any signed document and could be used in court in the same manner. If I'm wrong for why you would want it just let me know, I'm only guessing as to why you'd need that at this point.
With all the information in this thread that has been accumulated from people other than JJ I don't see how it would even matter if JJ did have a motive and was doing this as revenge. As it's been said many times it's TONI's own actions that are the most incriminating at this point. With his latest actions of removing stock/evidence from his site and his continued silence and lack of defence I don't see Jason as being his biggest problem any longer, he is his own biggest problem now.
With no disrespect meant to JJ, I think all collectors would prefer for JJ to be the liar in this scenario because that would be the best case senario. Every one would be able to keep, enjoy and resell their AFA 90's for what they paid for or more. But it's not like you can put the blinders on and pretend certain things don't add up.

Thanks for weighing-in with your thoughts. I assume Toni is lurking, so I won't risk divulging anything that might remotely tip him off on how I plan to pursue him. I can also tell you that after having a lengthy discussion with Tom Derby on Friday, I have a much better understanding of what's required to get the balling rolling.

Putting a freeze on "suspect" Palitoys and his banning were the first steps to prevent the use of certification to move questionable goods. And I'm not going to deny how this thread, and continuing discussion and discoveries may change how people like myself are going to proceed.

However, what I can say is that the people who are entrusted with the duty to decide a judgement of wrongdoing, either at the individual or tainted goods level, would require more than what this thread provides at the moment. My request to have Joiner sign a document stating 100% proof positive that Toni's MOC are fakes/counterfeit partially satisfies my own self-interested purposes, but it was mainly brought up to demonstrate the absence of "expertise" willing to definitively put a seal of disapproval on his actions and the goods he sold.

 

[finestcomics]

Toni laughed off the suggestion that he knew anything about
unused cardbacks. He has also threatened to Jump off Beachy Head in another encounter.

Funny that considering he did sell them to at least two dealers. Selective memory or just old age?

When you say he "sold" them to at least two dealers, do you mean the "unused" cardbacks, and if so, was this sale recent?

 

[Grant_C]

Jason said he is happy to hand over documentation and would be a witness to any case.

Going to make a move in this tomorrow.

 

[RKW1138]

Toni laughed off the suggestion that he knew anything about
unused cardbacks. He has also threatened to Jump off Beachy Head in another encounter.

Funny that considering he did sell them to at least two dealers. Selective memory or just old age?

When you say he "sold" them to at least two dealers, do you mean the "unused" cardbacks, and if so, was this sale recent?

He sold/traded unused cardbacks at the Atlantique city show around 2000, Andy Loney was one known dealer to get a stack. Dealer/collector William Rodgers (aka Billy Boy) sold around 50 between 1988-1990.

 

[mr_palitoy]

I have an idea that could work out to proof 100% what he has done!

It was said Toni seems to be more into other collecting areas himself. Maybe or surely he isn't not so good in loose figures. I remembered his second ebay account with whom he bought loose mint figures! He also bought two Stromtroopers (one Afa'd).

Could it be he fell for a Poon??? The Poons are around for two years now (in different versions)....so it could be possible! There is a few people who can spot them very well (aussiejames i.e. did spend a whole lot of time in identifying those).

Anyway...if anyone here has bought a Stromtrooper MOC from Toni in the last 24 month please recheck here:
http://www.imperialgunnery.com/reproductionfigures.htm

If we could proof he has sealed a Poon...oh boy...

PS: sorry if sth like that was already posted. :lol:

These were for for sale on toytoni.com

http://zoomertoys.ueuo.com/EUROPEAN.htm

Not sure if you can tell a poon from those photos.

cheers Jason

 

[finestcomics]

Jason said he is happy to hand over documentation and would be a witness to any case.

Going to make a move in this tomorrow.

Great! Can you PM me his contact information (tel/email) either here or on RS. Thanks

 

[finestcomics]

I think that's the image Wolf blew-up and zoomed in on the belt to confirm it wasn't a Poon.

 

[mr_palitoy]

Only one German stormtrooper sold on marksing in recent years:-

very fast delivery - well packed - great seller Buyer: m***k ( 1634Red star icon for Feedback score between 1,000 to 4,999) 12-Jun-11 19:01
RARE VINTAGE ESB GENERAL MILLS GERMAN STORMTROOPER (#250819659952)

cheers Jason

 

[lee gray]

Its all too late, just got a post card from Toni from Thailand saying thanks for the dosh and **** you all

Should have acted while the iron was hot, just like the iron he sealed the cards with.

Seriously though time is the key factor now if somethings to be done.

 

[tiefighterboy]

Its all too late, just got a post card from Toni from Thailand saying thanks for the dosh and **** you all

Should have acted while the iron was hot, just like the iron he sealed the cards with.

Seriously though time is the key factor now if somethings to be done.

We have Pseudo Attorneys on this already. :wink:

 

[wbobafett]

I think that's the image Wolf blew-up and zoomed in on the belt to confirm it wasn't a Poon.

not sure if its the same as Spoon's one!

This could also be a Poon but i would need a better picture!

The Euro no coo and the Poons are very similar!

If I look at the pic above paint apps and the feet 8one up one down) look Poon....but to be sure...more pictures are needed.

Again guys: PLEASE POST UP YOUR PICS OF YOUR TT STROMIES YOU BOUGHT AFTER JAN 2012

 

[spoons]

I think that's the image Wolf blew-up and zoomed in on the belt to confirm it wasn't a Poon.

The other one is mine and graded and now can be found on eBay :wink:

 

[ironfist]

Hi, guys, I have been watching this thread with great attention almost since the first day. I have invested a lot of money in Toni's blisters and I'd like to help in some way, but I've felt completely useless, since I don't own any childhood blister bought from a toystore or any used cardback...

I have been speaking this afternoon with Jason (Mr.Palitoy) and Chris Caswell and they have helped me to discard some of my Palitoy pieces as suspicious.

Unluckily I own another 19 blisters I directly bought from Toni, a couple that come from Toni via another seller and an Original Luke (blonde version) ROTJ 45C AFA90 whose origin is still to confirm, as I'm trying to find out who was the original owner, but I'm afraid it comes from the same source...

Chris Caswell have encouraged me to share with you the things I have, so
I'd like to help you in your investigation, but the only thing I can offer to you is pictures of my pieces bought from Toni. Below these lines is my list. If you want me to post pictures of any of them or ask me any kind of question, please feel free to PM me or post here.

1) 19 PIECES I DIRECTLY BOUGHT FROM TONI

-Imperial stormtrooper palitoy rotj 65D
-C-3PO palitoy rotj 65D
-R2-D2 esb GM double stem (very slim and fragile, slightly yellowed bubble)
-Original Han Solo esb GM double stem (thicker and stronger than the R2's ones)
-Ben Kenobi esb GM double stem (the same as the Han Solo above)
-Hammerhead esb Clipper single stem
-Cloud car pilot esb GM single stem
-Rebel commander esb Clipper double stem (thick stems)
-White Bespin guard esb Clipper single stem
-Black Bespin guard esb GM single stem
-Lobot Palitoy rotj 45C
-Han Solo Hoth Palitoy rotj 65D. This one could be legit... The bubble is slightly yellowed an thinner, the card has creases, there's scuffing to the back, the seal of the bubble is slightly different (no bubbles or smudge) when I compare it to the seal of another pieces from Toni...
-Han Bespin esb GM single stem
-Bossk esb GM single stem
-Boba Fett Palitoy rotj 45C
-Logray Palitoy rotj 65C
-Power droid esb GM
-At-At driver esb GM
-Stormtrooper esb GM single stem (the stormie is no a Poon...)

2.- 2 PIECES THAT COME FROM TONI VIA OTHER SELLERS

-Luke Bespin Palitoy (blonde hair version) rotj 45C UKG85
-Luke Hoth Palitoy rotj 65D

3.- 1 PIECE WHOSE ORIGIN IS STILL TO CONFIRM

-Original Luke (blonde hair version) Palitoy rotj 45C AFA90

BTW, does anybody know Mike Enders or how I could contact him? I bought this Luke half a year ago from another Spanish collector who had bought it from Ron Wallace. Then I asked Ron Wallace about the origin of this piece and he told me he had bought it from Mike Enders...

Regards from Spain

Fernando