Resealed figure discovery debate - G.Kurtz Palitoy VC Jawa.

[jay4]

im wandering if anyone has noticed any type of paintwear on any figures under the bubbles that arent condusive with factory error or paint rubbing of inside bubble ? just on my 2001/2002 tt bought direct gm bossk he has paint loss on 3 toes onfront and underneath on one foot and same on 2 toes the other .ive examined the bubble and theres no evidence of rub off or paint transfer AT ALL not a single piece of green paint evident on bubble ! sort of making me think that a bossk that wasnt quite minty mint was placed on the card in hope it would not be noticed or is it wear from factory ? can feet really suffer that much paint loss within a bubble and not leave any trace at all ? i dont know - i hadnt noticed before it was only by photo enlargement is een it proper

Can't see the picture here at work, but the rubbed off paint could be around somewhere in minor flakes along the bubble seal if the paint rubbed off inside the bubble. It doesn't neccesarly has to be on the bubble in front off the figures feet.

Also people who have bought cards in the 90 not directly from Toni and now saying these came not from Toni, there is no absolutae garantee, he could have sold them before and then they somehow ended up with you.... You can only say you did not buy it directly from Toni.... It's the same as you cannot say Toni makes those, only that lots off those originated from Toni....



no as is said i fully examined the bubble :wink: now i get paint could have dried and flaked off the bubble and possibly even worked its way out but i would imagine there would still have to at least be some sort of indication of it happening or having had happened there certainly is any other cards i have ,it just looked a lot of wear to have no sings at all that got me thinking,
and as i said i bought this directly from toni over the fone

 

[DarthStanley]

Just had a look at my 2 lobots that I bought from Toni & they BOTH have the dot next to chewie !

PLUS,

There are also pink/red blemishes/dots under the number 13 by the AT AT Driver AND on the Cloud Car Pilot as well which I don't know if anyone else has picked up on! :?:

Don't have my camera right now but will take some pics in a couple of days!

 

[jay4]

mmmm :? . The inside toe can't touch the bubble, so it seems impossible to be a genuine rub off. Looks like a typical play wear... A TT recard maybe??[/quote][/quote]

yes i made sure of that even fully pushed to the side it does not. just too add the rest of the figure looks immaculate , genuine factory paint wear or playwear i dont know

 

[Palifan]

I've been following this thread with great interest since it all kicked off and can really see the problems that this could cause even though it's not an area of collecting that I partake in.

There have been some really interesting things put forward on this subject but I agree with some of the early posts about being careful not to get too wrapped up with going down one route and maybe missing something else that's of great importance.

One thing I feel that maybe a red herring is the Snow Trooper with an upside down bubble. I'm not sure if this has already been cleared up (although I don't think so), but JJ has stated that he bought these figures from Arthur and that this is not something that TT has been selling (please correct me if I'm wrong on that point). Even if TT has sold these in the past, as JJ sold them also this means that the so called 'iron seal' does not originate from anything TT has done as it must have already existed in Arthur's Palitoy lot he had. This would then mean that other cards showing the same sealing technique may also have come from this original source. Perhaps these were all rejects from the Palitoy factory before it closed it's doors? Saying that though there's no way that the spraymounted bubbles would have ever come from a factory so something has obviously happened there at a later date.

The other thing I thought of is that although this whole thread has certainly put a lot of doubt into collectors minds about what TT is selling, I do wonder how much of an impact it will really have on his future sales. I for one had never heard of TT before this thread and I'm guessing there are quite a few other people out there like me. I've been collecting vintage Star Wars for many years and never came across his web site in any of my searches and this thread has in a funny way helped to promote what he sells. I'm guessing that the people who have been buying from him over the years probably have most of what they've been after from him by now, but with this new attention on TT and his web site there maybe a whole new wave of collectors who are happy to have some vintage MOC's in their collection regardless of when they were sealed. It's just a thought I had about this and no offence is intended to people who have TT's cards in their collection and now aren't quite sure what to think about them.

One last thing is that I think everyone out there contributing to this thread with their pictures and information from years gone by have all be doing a fantastic job to try and get to the bottom of this. It is very important to find out what the real story is (if any?!), and I feel in time that there will be some sort of resolution.......well I hope so at least!

Oh, and just to let you know that I for one have read every post on this thread so it all matters to me!

Ian

 

[Bramistuta25]

I think we are going round in circles people... Whilst I too appreciate all that are going to a lot of trouble to try ad make some sort of connection somewhere all of this will pale in comparison to Toni coming on here and making a co-herent statement about:

When he bought them?

Where he bought them from?

Who he bought them off?

Why he has the double eBay Id's with 30 name changes.

Why he is buying U-graded and Mint figures.

Also if he can provide some sort of proof to these answers. Regardless of where the accusations come from if you have nothing to hide then why hide and not meet this head on. As Iain said before and I agree. If it were me I would be fighting my corner!!

For me, although I will continue reading, regardless of what is said or "proven". My simple question that has never been answered is:

Why does Toni not defend his business or name? If its all lies then prove it!!

Come on Toni, as I said before, you OWE it to everyone including yourself.

(I will not be holding my breath). SIGH...

 

[edd_jedi]

Has anybody got a MOC Kenner Bossk with similar rubbing? I have seen rubs before but that does indeed look more like play/storage wear to me. Sadly as I said before we all know these things weren't treated particularly well before sealing (there's a video of a box full of loose figures before they were put on cards) but you usually only see rubs and badly applied paint, not wear that looks like it has happened over time like this.

 

[TC-14]

...Sadly as I said before we all know these things weren't treated particularly well before sealing (there's a video of a box full of loose figures before they were put on cards) but you usually only see rubs and badly applied paint, not wear that looks like it has happened over time like this.

Here you go, chaps- for anybody not familiar with said video as mentioned by Edd:

[youtube]eFEX1jvSFDo[/youtube]

Figures chucked into a storage bin ready for sealing starts at 0:21. Still takes my breath away when I watch it, knowing how we now covet these toys and their cards and bubbles some 30-odd years down the line.

Martin

 

[Mr-shifter]

Whatever the outcome 'mud sticks' unfortunately and a couple of peoples reputation will now forever be called into question, with their involvement in this sorry story.

On another note, I just popped into the Flea Market to see what MOC's were on sale, and in a 'certain' cabinet was the usual stuff a yellowed, creased Logray, Bib Fortuna & this Threepio. No waffle pattern, very bright unpunched, spotless card, no pink dot, no printing errors, and a very clear bubble. £50

Don't know if this is relevant but I went into snoopers paradise this evening and examined these three cards. The c3po hasn't got the pink dot on the name plate but it does have a bit of the colour shift around the ROTJ logo like the others. The date on the back for the offer is not crossed off.

The logray however was of great interest. I am certain it is factory sealed and certain it is a QC reject.

It is a Kenner 77 back. It has the bubble shaped for the accessory. It has the waffle pattern on the seal and the bubble is as yellow as a yellow thing. The crease in the middle of the card is not a crease. You can clearly see down the center of the card deep precisely cut lines of a right hand card edge on the left and a left hand card edge on the right. You can see the rounded corners top and bottom and the two extra precisely cut hang tab holes. They are not deep enough to go all the way through the card but they are clearly visible. It is like the card stock went through the cutting machine twice. The lines were precise and must have been cut by machine.

Unfortunately, I couldn't get a photo of it and I'm not willing to give Toni another £20 to get a photo. The moc looks absolute shite. There is no way it could have got through QC. For a seller who's reputation was previously stellar as to the quality of his items, this was not good. I know that people were questioning the quality of the stuff Jason had on Sunday as we only had his word for the fact that they had come via Toni and the fact that you would have had to be blind to have not seen something was wrong with the cards. Well, this beauty was up there on a par with them for quality and it is definitely being sold by toytoni.

Make of that what you will. Thought some people might like to know.

 

[jedisearcher]

Here's a really suspect one - absolutely no way that figure is mint.







Wear on right wrist and arm, sabre bent, dot on back of head (visible on 2 pics), scuffing on inside of left boot (!), possible dot on front of chest. Seal on bottom of single stem abit dodgy as well.

The seller also sold a minty GM BBG.

I know this is just another example of something peculiar but I thought it worth throwing out there.

 

[jay4]

Has anybody got a MOC Kenner Bossk with similar rubbing? I have seen rubs before but that does indeed look more like play/storage wear to me. Sadly as I said before we all know these things weren't treated particularly well before sealing (there's a video of a box full of loose figures before they were put on cards) but you usually only see rubs and badly applied paint, not wear that looks like it has happened over time like this.

YEAH mate deffo this looks to extensive a loss to simply have been from factory pre seal storage boxes ,if the boxes had been shifted or aggrivated to such a point that this much paint loss could occurr to figures within i would think there would at least be some other minor wear visable on the figure having been shunted about to that degree but theres not sadly ,
allthoug ive no doubt at all though like others have said that Q,C wasnt all that strict ,it was after all a throwaway £1.50 figure for kids in the 80s not some sort of ltd edition high cost collectable i wouldnt be surprised if it were just put on the card as is having had his feet smudged by the employee who painted him

 

[jay4]

Here's a really suspect one - absolutely no way that figure is mint.







Wear on right wrist and arm, sabre bent, dot on back of head (visible on 2 pics), scuffing on inside of left boot (!), possible dot on front of chest. Seal on bottom of single stem abit dodgy as well.

The seller also sold a minty GM BBG.



I know this is just another example of something peculiar but I thought it worth throwing out there.

yeah thats not good all those marks . allthough the sabre could easliy have been bent either just when employee was trying to shove it in lukes hole :shock: :lol: or when put in or grabbed from the boxes containing em

 

[Richard_H]

Can any of the carded collectors look at their Kenner stuff and see if there are similar rubs to figures?
What's the lowest U grade reported? Is there for example a U60 anywhere?

 

[Caswellbot]

The seal on that Luke looks suspect to me.

 

[bobbybobs]

Can someone please remind me of Toni's full name? Antonio - then something Polish sounding.

Sorry I don't want to look back over the whole thread again.

 

[jay4]

i wasnt goin to post this as i thought not worth it ? but after looking at pics on the evidence thread i thought maybe it was worth it
theres a black dot which is printed below the E in empire on my TT 2001/2002 han hoth gm card ,i do not have this black dot thingy on any of my other empire carded and dont recall seeing it anywhere else ? i could snap a better pic if required :wink: also ive seen some stress/blistering like this before a couple of times but no where near as bad as this is especially on a mint flat card and theres no evidence at all of it on the front so thought it also maybe worth me posting

 

[søren]

As i child i brougt a Leia bespin Trilogo wich had a crack in the neck . When i took it off the card . Thje head fell off .

So cracked figures did leave the factory back then .


I don't know can help us out . But on the back of most of my child hood collection cards . On the lwer right corner .
It offen says : ( ROTJ 1) or some thing like that . And on some after thet it says : HN . HG etc

I think it is to identifi where wich version and where it is made . Hong kong etc .

Just thinking that the " rejected cards " Tony has , might have other combos then the shop sold stuff ?

I have no TT fake cards , but a lot of child hood cards , shop sold in my collction .

Btw. Joe i have never seen a 65 back pali Fett . I have a ESB 45 back from a childhood colletion . Thats all

 

[lee gray]

The only thing that makes me wonder is about the buying of mint figures on a second account but then its not proof.

Also i have seen many graded kenner carded figures where the figure inside the bubble only recieves an 80 and so these not so perfect figures can show up on any card.

I wonder if another past scammer Shaun Neinast had posted his findings, would he have received such a warm welcome as JJ ?

I personally got nothing against JJ and look forward to meeting him at the next event, but with his job and the events he runs surely he would have chatted with many others people with the same love of star wars collecting at these events or on other occassions so really this story should have come out years ago instead of just now.


Also with the hoth trooper bubble, I in no way think that was something Toni did as people have got these from other sellers and not Toni, my point is someone else could have been testing out these sealing of bubbles
Hopefully my last post on the subject as the whole things giving me a headache, this thread is like spam mail whilst the one Joe started is the main account lol

 

[Yak]

...a lot of people are questioning the Authenticity of AFA and UKG after an incident like this and I don't blame you, but if this guy was supposedly manufacturing these things since the mid 80's using authentic card backs, bubbles, and figures then AFA and UKG would be using those pieces as a benchmark for quality standards rather then wondering why they are so crisp....

- Jeff

Hi Jeff, I see what you're saying but it was quite literally their business to know.

The killer for me is how they could not question a figure commonly known as the "Trilogo BobaFett" (Trilogo being a card that came out in 1984) being on card backs as early as 1982!? Ok one or two fluke examples, but lots of them and I bet many more mint one's apeared in recent years.

They had the statistics, they must have seen there were too many mint versions of these specific cardbacks.

Cheers

 

[jay4]

Can any of the carded collectors look at their Kenner stuff and see if there are similar rubs to figures?
What's the lowest U grade reported? Is there for example a U60 anywhere?

ive about 60-70 kenner moc and i dont have a single figure with paint rub to this extent . maybe just the odd finger or nose with paint on bubble as per norm

 

[edd_jedi]

Has Toni been buying any mint or graded loose tri logo boba fetts? He must have needed a large amount over the years, and especially now they are not cheap (May explain why the price keeps going up even if we all know they're not really rare)