Resealed figure discovery debate - G.Kurtz Palitoy VC Jawa.

[Dark Sith Lord]

Before the list surfaced I had some concern about these 3 MOC's but now it's just the Hammerhead, I can see the bubble position from the back implying there was pressure used, although it's not as visable as the other 2 MOC's. also seen a GM PD in hand yesterday which looks the same as my Hammerhead from the back.

These pics aren't great but if any one wants something else just ask
http://s19.photobucket.com/user/scotthughes1/library/Pics

Can see the pics now.

Hmm, I can see that Palitoy ROTJ Walrusman is not on JJ's list. I have one, and assumed it was on the list. But the list is inaccurate and it is a figure/card combo
that has been on sale on toytoni.com multiple times, and there are at least 10 AFA graded and it's one you can pick up minty mint quite easily.

So I would put that in question too.

Jason

Also Jason I think Junior Chubb has a Palitoy 65 Back Walrusman he brought from me? I in turn brought from auction? Perhaps he could help shed some light on that?

I was worried about my ROTJ Palitoy Wally from when this thread started. After FF I was more confident in its authenticity as I had a better idea of what to look for (loosely). I was confident with the bubble, the figure has a turned head which I guess any fraudster would have straightened out to help cover their tracks. Then after 'The List' appeared I took a big sigh of relief (from a totally self centered view point :wink: ).

The card is also just far enough away from minty mint and a slight ding in the bubble, enough to convince me that this has not lead its whole life in the hands of a collector.

I will get some pics taken and post them up...

Hey Chris! Just caught up with this thread!

Good to hear that that it sounds legit!

Look forward to the pics!

 

[wbobafett]

Guys, I have to make a little announcement:

I became somewhat a "spokesman" for this research. I am getting lost of all the pms and emails I am recieving on all boards with questions and pictures and I must honestly say:

I cannot handle it!

I cannot handle it because I am simply not a MOC collector. I never had one of those in my hands. I am 100% a loose collector. I only tried to be helpfull on this. This story is IMO part of the whole community and no matter what I do collect this needs to be solved for the sake of the hobby...our hobby!

Lots of things are now in danger! I am only thinking of Javi's new book about PBP and spanish figures this TT story brings a major turn to the history of those figures. If we cannot be sure anymore if the PBP Bossk, PBP Luke Framboy, the lightblue Fett and other late PBP or trilogo figures actually appeared on those 45backs this brings a whole segment of the hobby (research wise) to an end!

I think lots of interesting points were raised up now. We found out about crescents, structured seals, ironed stuff, blister position, Coos, bubble types used etc etc etc.

The only thing that now would be really of help is a data base! Someone needs to collect the data from all known cards of the community. I see no other solution. As long as only two or three people are going through their collection to help out this will become and stay a never ending train wreck!

IMO the key are the loose and used cradbacks. You need to study them. These are the ones you can rely on...the ones that are 100% legit! I am sure if we try hard we will find out a general identification point!

But honestly I am missing most of the "big" fishes in the discussion. It would be nice to hear that something is going on in the background...maybe the solution is already there and a case is made up, but I doubt it. I am just wondering, because it seems many of the collectors seem to sit at home, fingers crossed that nothing can't be said for sure....just waiting....

I am personally out of this. I cannot go deeper because I don't have any of those in hands. It doesn't help me as a loose collector bringing up some points if there is very less response on that. It doesn't help if the MOC community doesn't take this in their own hands. You have the cards there, just try to figure it out! Do the messurements, collect the data and post it up. Combine forces.

This thing took all my holiday time away....from now on I will again concentrate on work and family. I am sorry guys. I did everything possible for a guy that never collected MOCs. I was really trying hard to find a solution, but my possibilties are now coming to a limit.

The good thing is I learned much on the issue...packaging process, MOC variants, blister types...LOL....

I hope you understand.

Wolff

(PS: I am still here for Coo questions. That is my area of expertise )

 

[mr_palitoy]

Guys, I have to make a little announcement:

I became somewhat a "spokesman" for this research. I am getting lost of all the pms and emails I am recieving on all boards with questions and pictures and I must honestly say:

I cannot handle it!

I cannot handle it because I am simply not a MOC collector. I never had one of those in my hands. I am 100% a loose collector. I only tried to be helpfull on this. This story is IMO part of the whole community and no matter what I do collect this needs to be solved for the sake of the hobby...our hobby!

Lots of things are now in danger! I am only thinking of Javi's new book about PBP and spanish figures this TT story brings a major turn to the history of those figures. If we cannot be sure anymore if the PBP Bossk, PBP Luke Framboy, the lightblue Fett and other late PBP or trilogo figures actually appeared on those 45backs this brings a whole segment of the hobby (research wise) to an end!

I think lots of interesting points were raised up now. We found out about crescents, structured seals, ironed stuff, blister position, Coos, bubble types used etc etc etc.

The only thing that now would be really of help is a data base! Someone needs to collect the data from all known cards of the community. I see no other solution. As long as only two or three people are going through their collection to help out this will become and stay a never ending train wreck!

IMO the key are the loose and used cradbacks. You need to study them. These are the ones you can rely on...the ones that are 100% legit! I am sure if we try hard we will find out a general identification point!

But honestly I am missing most of the "big" fishes in the discussion. It would be nice to hear that something is going on in the background...maybe the solution is already there and a case is made up, but I doubt it. I am just wondering, because it seems many of the collectors seem to sit at home, fingers crossed that nothing can't be said for sure....just waiting....

I am personally out of this. I cannot go deeper because I don't have any of those in hands. It doesn't help me as a loose collector bringing up some points if there is very less response on that. It doesn't help if the MOC community doesn't take this in their own hands. You have the cards there, just try to figure it out! Do the messurements, collect the data and post it up. Combine forces.

This thing took all my holiday time away....from now on I will again concentrate on work and family. I am sorry guys. I did everything possible for a guy that never collected MOCs. I was really trying hard to find a solution, but my possibilties are now coming to a limit.

The good thing is I learned much on the issue...packaging process, MOC variants, blister types...LOL....

I hope you understand.

Wolff

(PS: I am still here for Coo questions. That is my area of expertise )

No problem Wolff, your insight on bubble measurements was a great help. There's only so much you can get from pictures.
Most of the iron marks I've been finding on cardbacks only show up if you twist the card in the light to see them for example!

cheers Jason

 

[Richard_H]

I'd like to say well done and thank you Wolf for the time that you've put into this. It's important now that you spend time with your family you've put a lot of effort and time into this.

 

[Alas-1]

I can confirm that Toy Toni sold LOADS of Prune Face, Snowtroopers, Skiff Disguise Landos and of course Threepios ALL case fresh, Palitoy ROTJ, MINT bubbles and MINT Cards... He's sold around 50 Jawas on Meccano cards...
He is obviously a dude with SERIOUS knowledge. And with SERIOUS stocks of Vintage....

Why are you all focusing on Fetts??? Have I missed something through this whole thread??

Can we have a quick breakdown of what has happened so far like someone did about half way in? LOL sorry....

Hello all by the way....

 

[mike-skywalker]

Here are the measuring results of the blister. I added a few in the Album.

http://s487.photobucket.com/user/mike-skywalker/library/German%20ESB%20Cardbacks?sort=9&page=1

Sorry, the list is not in alphabetical order.
DSB= Double Stem Blister
SSB= Single Stem Blister

TIE-Fighter Pilot DSB 66/36 X2
Rebel Soldier DSB orange background 65/35
Rebel Soldier SSB red background 64/36 X2
Cloud Car Pilot SSB 64/36 X2
Bossk DSB 64/40
Bossk SSB dark green background 68/35
C3-PO SSB dark green background 74/38 (what a hughe blister!!!)
C3-PO DSB light green blisterbackground 66/36
C-3PO DSB dark green background 68/36 X2
Snowtrooper probably SSB 69/37
Snowtrooper DSB 64/35
Han Solo Bespin DSB light green background 64/35 (wider blister)
Han Solo Bespin DSB dark green background 58/36
Luke Hoth DSB english text 60/39
Luke Hoth DSB 55/36 bad printing
Darth Vader SSB 61/36
4-LOM DSB 62/35
Walrusman DSB 68/35
Princess Leia SSB 62/36
Chewbacca DSB 58/32
FX-7 DSB 72/36
Lando DSB 68/36
Imperial Commander DSB rips offs are too big
Ben Kenobi DSB or SSB 62/37
Bespin Guard black DSB dark green background 60/37
Bespin Guard black SSB light green background 63/35 X2
Luke Bespin DSB rip offs are too big
Leia Hoth DSB 60/37
Greedo 67/36
AT-AT-Commander SSB rip offs are too big
Boba Fett DSB 67/36 slightly lighter yellow background
Boba Fett DSB 67/36 slightly darker yellow background bad printing
IG-88 Cant´define the blister 58/35
Dengar SSB 64/36

 

[mr_palitoy]

Here are the measuring results of the blister. I added a few in the Album.

http://s487.photobucket.com/user/mike-skywalker/library/German%20ESB%20Cardbacks?sort=9&page=1

Sorry, the list is not in alphabetical order.
DSB= Double Stem Blister
SSB= Single Stem Blister

TIE-Fighter Pilot DSB 66/36 X2
Rebel Soldier DSB orange background 65/35
Rebel Soldier SSB red background 64/36 X2
Cloud Car Pilot SSB 64/36 X2
Bossk DSB 64/40
Bossk SSB dark green background 68/35
C3-PO SSB dark green background 74/38 (what a hughe blister!!!)
C3-PO DSB light green blisterbackground 66/36
C-3PO DSB dark green background 68/36 X2
Snowtrooper probably SSB 69/37
Snowtrooper DSB 64/35
Han Solo Bespin DSB light green background 64/35 (wider blister)
Han Solo Bespin DSB dark green background 58/36
Luke Hoth DSB english text 60/39
Luke Hoth DSB 55/36 bad printing
Darth Vader SSB 61/36
4-LOM DSB 62/35
Walrusman DSB 68/35
Princess Leia SSB 62/36
Chewbacca DSB 58/32
FX-7 DSB 72/36
Lando DSB 68/36
Imperial Commander DSB rips offs are too big
Ben Kenobi DSB or SSB 62/37
Bespin Guard black DSB dark green background 60/37
Bespin Guard black SSB light green background 63/35 X2
Luke Bespin DSB rip offs are too big
Leia Hoth DSB 60/37
Greedo 67/36
AT-AT-Commander SSB rip offs are too big
Boba Fett DSB 67/36 slightly lighter yellow background
Boba Fett DSB 67/36 slightly darker yellow background bad printing
IG-88 Cant´define the blister 58/35
Dengar SSB 64/36

Those tie in pretty well with what I measured on my german cardbacks:-

2-1b double stem 64mm 35mm (no thin waffle pattern on remaining bubble and price sticker residue, so maybe not all german cards have the thin line waffle pattern)
r2d2 sensorscope double stem 62mm 35mm
at at commander 62mm 36mm
at at driver double stem 56mm 35mm
bespin security guard black double stem 64mm 37mm
boba fett double stem white circle at top 58mm 35mm
bossk double stem 68mm 36mm
c3p0 removable limbs double stem white circle at top 62mm 37mm
chewbacca 58mm 31mm
cloud car pilot double stem 64mm 36mm
darth vader 60mm 35mm
dengar with english text on the back 82mm 46mm (had some stupidly massive bubble attached to it, and has clear iron prints on it. looks like an early Toni. we have the 11 unused dengar cardbacks down as all clipper currently, i'd at least put a 50/50 split on those in light of this card)
fx7 double stem 64mm 36mm
greed double stem 66mm 37mm
hammerhead 64mm 36mm
han solo double stem 58mm 35mm
han solo be spin double stem white circle at top 64mm 36mm
hans solo both double stem 68mm 34mm
ig88 58mm 33mm
imperial commander double stem 58mm 35mm
imperial stormtrooper double stem hoth 64mm 36mm
imperial tie fighter pilot double stem 68mm 34mm (no thin waffle pattern on remaining bubble and price sticker residue, so maybe not all german cards have the thin line waffle pattern)
land calrissian double stem 62mm 36mm
leia organa both double stem 60mm 35mm
leia organa bespin gown double stem 62mm 35mm
luke double stem 62mm 36mm
luke be spin double stem 64mm 35mm
luke both double stem 64mm 36mm
luke x-wing single stem 50mm 35mm (clear signs that the bubble was ironed on here too, though that card/figure combo isn't on jj's list)
power droid double stem 70mm 35mm
r5d4 double stem 58mm 34mm
rebel commander double stem 54mm 36mm
rebel soldier double stem 64mm 36mm
snaggletooth 60mm 37mm
star destroyer commander white circle at top 58mm 38mm
stormtrooper double stem 64mm 35mm
ugnaught 60mm 38mm
walrusman double stem 66mm 35mm
yoda double stem 60mm 35mm

cheers Jason

 

[mr_palitoy]

I can confirm that Toy Toni sold LOADS of Prune Face, Snowtroopers, Skiff Disguise Landos and of course Threepios ALL case fresh, Palitoy ROTJ, MINT bubbles and MINT Cards... He's sold around 50 Jawas on Meccano cards...
He is obviously a dude with SERIOUS knowledge. And with SERIOUS stocks of Vintage....

Why are you all focusing on Fetts??? Have I missed something through this whole thread??

Can we have a quick breakdown of what has happened so far like someone did about half way in? LOL sorry....

Hello all by the way....

Hi there, welcome, who are you?

The summary thread has some of the more important evidence in it:-

http://www.starwarsforum.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=18756&start=0

Fetts are just one of the cards he sold many mint examples of. It's a focus for a lot of collectors
and it's a popular figure that commands the highest price so people have more monetary value to lose on it.

Prune Face isn't on the list of unused cardbacks from Arthur. It's a Tri Logo with 28 graded on AFA.
Tri Logos haven't been called into question as yet.

I think those Jawa/Meccanos are genuine MOCs so are probably ok.

cheers Jason

 

[ace]

i just wanted to say good job Wolf on all you have managed to find out , i also spent my down time from work before Christmas going through boxes looking for the list , i totally understand how you feel, but you have giving a lot of your time to help others , i know many people thank you for your time spent on this, and i agree you should take time out now for family , my wife started to ask me to spend less time on this also as its was talking up all my time , i do think others should take time to help if they really want to get to the bottom of all this , i will be taking photos of the relevant figures in Jan and Feb , but i still feel that the people that have bought figures from toni needs to act and take it to the authorities ? as in the end nothing is really going to happen and more collects will be buying figures from Toni that are not what they seem ?

dose the unit in Briton still have these figures in them for sale ?

happy new year everyone

jason

 

[lee gray]

I can confirm that Toy Toni sold LOADS of Prune Face, Snowtroopers, Skiff Disguise Landos and of course Threepios ALL case fresh, Palitoy ROTJ, MINT bubbles and MINT Cards... He's sold around 50 Jawas on Meccano cards...
He is obviously a dude with SERIOUS knowledge. And with SERIOUS stocks of Vintage....

Why are you all focusing on Fetts??? Have I missed something through this whole thread??

Can we have a quick breakdown of what has happened so far like someone did about half way in? LOL sorry....

Hello all by the way....

Hi mate welcome to the forums

 

[Dark Sith Lord]

I can confirm that Toy Toni sold LOADS of Prune Face, Snowtroopers, Skiff Disguise Landos and of course Threepios ALL case fresh, Palitoy ROTJ, MINT bubbles and MINT Cards... He's sold around 50 Jawas on Meccano cards...
He is obviously a dude with SERIOUS knowledge. And with SERIOUS stocks of Vintage....

Why are you all focusing on Fetts??? Have I missed something through this whole thread??

Can we have a quick breakdown of what has happened so far like someone did about half way in? LOL sorry....

Hello all by the way....

Hi Welcome to SWFUK

 

[JabbasMoobs]

Guys I don't know if this is any use to you at all, but I really feel for people who may have been stung.

Here are some pics of a Palitoy Action Force Moc from the Coalville factory.

http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z279/red5_album/230A23B7-7FC2-488E-B3B1-421D717C3F2C_zpsxf9tymrx.jpg

http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z279/red5_album/B1BA18DA-D115-40D2-9581-FE67674634CB_zpsfi0ftjhp.jpg

http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z279/red5_album/97242A78-33FB-42A7-A5FC-390FCA2504E9_zpscnflroeu.jpg

http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z279/red5_album/F1C44EEA-DB56-40E4-9196-7891784D95E8_zpsal2kszum.jpg

You can see some of the characteristics discussed on SW cards in this thread also. The bubble is smooth sealed with NO faults, marks or numbers. It is a perfect smooth seal.

Like I said I don't know if it helps you out or not. But at least you know that this is a genuine example of a carded figure from the factory in question.

All the best,

Ray

 

[Alas-1]

It's shocking that there's been no further word from Toni in all this..?
I mean defend yourself, regardless of your one - or if lucky - two lines of conversation.

A picture says a thousand words...

 

[mr_palitoy]

It's shocking that there's been no further word from Toni in all this..?
I mean defend yourself, regardless of your one - or if lucky - two lines of conversation.

A picture says a thousand words...

He posted a couple of times when it was hearsay from Jason Joiner, then retreated to email when all the supporting evidence
came to light and has gone completely quiet now.

The picture he should post is of the boxes and boxes of his MOCs, but he can't, cause they're boxes and boxes of unused
cardbacks and he's running short on figures and/or decent bubbles to put on them.

Jason

 

[jay4]

:wink: deleted

 

[mr_palitoy]

Have published my initial write up of Toy Toni along with matrix of affected figure/card combinations on my palitoy cardback guide:-

http://www.freewebs.com/mrpalitoy/

In December 2013 Antoni Emchowicz aka Toy Toni, a long time Palitoy and German MOC toy dealer, was found to have been assembling MOC from a large stock of unused cardbacks and bubbles bought after the Palitoy factory closed. The matrix below is a categorisation of the affected figure/cardback combinations. This matrix is a guide, as the sales list that listed the number of unused cardbacks he bought was not well categorised and missing for some figures. Information from the AFA population report and cards that have been for sale on toytoni.com have also been factored into making this breakdown more accurate. He has been assembling MOCs for a long time and AFA have graded hundreds of them over the last 20 years. There are also a few unused cardbacks in circulation which AFA currently list as proof cards. The numbers listed are the number of unused cardbacks shown on the sales list, or the total on the AFA population report if the figure was missing from the list.

Figure/Cardback 45B 45C 65A/B/C 65D
Luke Skywalker 885
Chewbacca 66* 143
Darth Vader 29+
Han Solo 47
Death Star Droid 417
Imperial Stormtrooper (Hoth Battle Gear) 1126
Bossk (Bounty Hunter) 500*
Luke Skywalker (Bespin Fatigues) 132
Boba Fett 482
Yoda 12
Lobot 467
AT-AT Driver 39
2-1B 301
C-3PO (Removeable Limbs) 1234
Luke Skywalker (Hoth Battle Gear) 105
AT-AT Commander 27
(Twin-Pod) Cloud Car Pilot 8
Imperial TIE Fighter Pilot 264
Princess Leia Organa (Boushh Disguise) 30
Gamorrean Guard 31
Logray (Ewok Medicine Man) 81
Squid Head 60
Lando Calrissian (Skiff Guard Disguise) 86

*Number quoted is a 50/50 split between Palitoy and German cardbacks as large quantities of mint MOCs exist for both and both were for sale on toytoni.com
+Not on the list, but a used cardback with iron marks was purchased directly from Toy Toni, figure quoted is from AFA population report

Total number of affected cards:- 6572

Click on this link to download the matrix as an Excel spreadsheet:- toytonimatrix.xlsx

If you have a very mint card with a pristine bubble on a figure/cardback above, it is highly likely that it originated from Toy Toni. Efforts are being made by the collecting community to better spot these by examining printing flaws on the cards, bubble types, bubble placement, how the seals look and looking for figures with wear and incorrect COO on them. The most up to date information on spotting these can be found on the collecting forums listed below. There are many more figure variations on affected figures than there should be. Boba Fett has at least 3 variations listed by AFA that are likely to be down to Toy Toni. Also, odd bubble cardback combinations on the affected cardbacks are likely to be down to Toy Toni. Boba Fett with a single stem bubble on a 45C cardback for example.

cheers Jason

 

[mr_palitoy]

Have added further Toy Toni details on the 45B, 45C, 65A, 65B, 65C and 65D pages.

http://www.freewebs.com/mrpalitoy/esb45bcardback.htm

http://www.freewebs.com/mrpalitoy/rotj45ccardback.htm

http://www.freewebs.com/mrpalitoy/rotj65acardback.htm

http://www.freewebs.com/mrpalitoy/rotj65bcardback.htm

http://www.freewebs.com/mrpalitoy/rotj65ccardback.htm

http://www.freewebs.com/mrpalitoy/rotj65dcardback.htm

The update on the last link shows my Darth Vader with iron marks and the easy red dot tell for C-3PO Removable Limbs.

cheers Jason

 

[Dark Sith Lord]

Fantastic work Jason!

 

[mr_palitoy]

Deleted repost from rebelscum

 

[jambobbyb]

Has anyone seen one of Toni's Vaders in the wild? from the "ironed" card (I wish i had gotten the oportunity to buy that before he ****ed it up) it would seem he is or was using rounded bubbles.

PS Great work Jason you have been running round like a blue arsed fly tracking all this info down .