Resealed figure discovery debate - G.Kurtz Palitoy VC Jawa.

[Chico]

Thanks Jason. That's exactly what I hoped to hear.

In that case I don't understand the wonky cards that apparently came from him early this century. If he'd already been at this for a decade by then why is he sending out duff cards with bubbles upside down!?!

As I've said before I agree there is a mountain of evidence staking up against Toni, but there are also more than a few things coming forward that don't stack up either. I just think as a community we shouldn't be so focused on Toni that we are missing other 'details' or assume that he was working alone.

 

[ace]

Thanks Jason. That's exactly what I hoped to hear.

In that case I don't understand the wonky cards that apparently came from him early this century. If he'd already been at this for a decade by then why is he sending out duff cards with bubbles upside down!?!

As I've said before I agree there is a mountain of evidence staking up against Toni, but there are also more than a few things coming forward that don't stack up either. I just think as a community we shouldn't be so focused on Toni that we are missing other 'details' or assume that he was working alone.

hi Chico i do not know if Toni was working with Arthur or not from the start ? it seems they both were in business for many years ? but as to anyone else being involved i do not know of anyone other than Arthur and Toni selling these figures and apart from the 1st bulk of 500 Fetts and trooper figures i managed to buy from Arthur at the start before Toni bought them from him sins then i have only herd of Toni selling them sins .

i also agree that there is more to get into to fully understand the full story , but i really feel we need to get on top of the Toni aspect of all this and get this agreed and closed then we can look into if there is others involved ?

hope that helps

jason

 

[plantman]

Has anyone asked Toni to show his extensive "moc" collection via picture or in the flesh? this could be solved if he allowed someone to see, obviously i know he wont, but worth asking.

 

[jay4]

edit sensored :mrgreen:

 

[M_Rendahl]

Hi Mattias, I saw that QC 2-1b at CE2! Didnt' see the back though! Great piece. After I made the post above it came to light that some GM cards (not many) with english text on the back made it to market in the UK and according to Michael from hell, also to market in in Germany which I subsequently posted about later in this thread. So maybe the first batch were shipped before the mistake was corrected and the subsequent batches were stored in the palitoy factory.

Argh, too many pages LOL At least it shows they likely werent meant to hit the German market.

Mattias

 

[Chico]

Thanks for the reply. I still don't understand why someone who deals in flawless cards (real or otherwise) is also selling crap like this 10 years down the line?

 

[tiefighterboy]

Thanks for the reply. I still don't understand why someone who deals in flawless cards (real or otherwise) is also selling crap like this 10 years down the line?

Amazing that these look like they were sealed by a three year old....either that or an older novice collectors attempt. :wink:

 

[M4K3R1]

So what, i dont get it.
You seem to think it is OK.
He is also reponsible for at least 500++++ of these being out ther now.

hi M4K3R1 i did not know there was anything untoward with the background of these figures when i sold them , i knew there was issue with the way some of them had been packaged but never really worried about it at the time and sold them at the same price a lose figures

so i did not do anything wrong , its no different then the collectors that have bought and sold these figures over the last 20 years they did not know like my self there was anything wrong with these figures ether .

i have not done anything that is underhand or wrong in any way.

i hope that clear this up for you

jason

Yes i know that Jason, thanks for answering.
Isnt that exactlly what TT has said, he knows nothing about the post factory sealing,
just the same as you knew nothing about it.
You seem hellbent on pinning this on him without any proof.
You always redirect any question to yourself back to concentrating on TT, why,
why not question others than TT.
Not doubting the fact about the post factory seals being sold by TT,
or the fact that they are post factory seals done by someone at home,
But were is the hard and concrete proof that TT is actually doing the sealling himself.
As for TT bying the U grade figures that match up to the type of figures TT is selling on sealed cards,
can you or anyone actually match a loose figure TT bought to one TT sold on a sealled card.
If you cant, then all you have is TT selling the post factory seals unknowinglly, just the same as you did.
Not questioning the the post factory sealed debate,
but the fact that you are still acusing him of doing the sealling himself,
with out the solid evidence need to prove this.

Hope you understand what i am trying to convey to you.
Regards.
Oscar.

 

[Joseph_Y]

So what, i dont get it.
You seem to think it is OK.
He is also reponsible for at least 500++++ of these being out ther now.

hi M4K3R1 i did not know there was anything untoward with the background of these figures when i sold them , i knew there was issue with the way some of them had been packaged but never really worried about it at the time and sold them at the same price a lose figures

so i did not do anything wrong , its no different then the collectors that have bought and sold these figures over the last 20 years they did not know like my self there was anything wrong with these figures ether .

i have not done anything that is underhand or wrong in any way.

i hope that clear this up for you

jason

Time for me to be the asshole that says what at least half of the people here are thinking right now..... Jason, when you bought the Fetts and Snowys you even have said that you knew the bubbles weren't "right" and you knew that the 25,000 other items were unsealed cardbacks and bubbles....... and DIDN'T think that there was something wrong with selling these figures that you had bought that the seals didn't seem right on?.. But you sold them along anyway....... You show up at a toy fair with some pieces that were supposedly from Toni, but are far worse than any of other things we've seen from him, after you'd claimed to have sold off everything else that could connect you to that situation...... It all seems a bit like a calculated revenge **** if you ask me. I'm past the point of thinking that Toni's 100% innocent of something wrong, but I'm definitely not convinced that you're being 100% honest either.

Cheers
Joe

 

[V1Elite]

Hey Guys,

Nice to meet everyone! I'm new to this forum but I got wind of this issue last night via the RS Forums and immediately came over to see if there had been any new developments. I read the entire thread from page 1 and I have to say, this whole situation sickens me. I am so sorry to everyone who was affected by this asshole. I can't even begin to imagine what you guys are going through. I know me saying this does nothing to help ease the pain but the people who are truly involved in this community and passionate about the hobby will remember the largest distribution fraud in history which in itself might add some additional value to those items. I sincerely hope there is some resolution that leads to this guy behind bars.

I was at Star Wars Celebration in Orlando, FL last year and was approached by a guy selling an AFA 90 Palitoy Boba Fett for $600 USD , claiming that he "Just needed to sell it". Something about it was shady from the beginning - Why would some guy I just met be offering the item at such a low price in a room full of collectors, looking to pay top dollar for some immaculate pieces? As I looked closer, something about the seal on the bubble just didn't look right to me so I passed on the offer. A year later this happens and it makes me wonder if perhaps this Toni guy had other distribution channels or partners that knew exactly what they were selling? The product I turned down was definitely among the items being questioned throughout this thread, moral being, we need to alert as many people as possible about this fraud so this Toni guy doesn't simply move his operation elsewhere and start this mess all over again.

Another thing I have noticed while reading through 94 pages of replies is that a lot of people are questioning the Authenticity of AFA and UKG after an incident like this and I don't blame you, but if this guy was supposedly manufacturing these things since the mid 80's using authentic card backs, bubbles, and figures then AFA and UKG would be using those pieces as a benchmark for quality standards rather then wondering why they are so crisp. This asshole literally created the market for these things using error and overstock cards and because they had become so plentiful by the time AFA went into business, you have to assume that they thought nothing of it, because they were only comparing it to other versions created by the same person.

Anyways, that's my take on the situation up until now and thanks again for having me on here guys!

- Jeff

 

[StarWarsAlways]

I attended one of Jason Joiner's Star Wars events down south, back in the nineties, Declan Mulholland and Peter Diamond were amongst the guests doing signings. I remember there were loads of mint carded ROTJ figures in clear comic style plastic bags for sale at the stalls just off from the main hall. I could not believe my eyes, where had all these figures come from in such amazing condition? I quickly snapped up a Farmboy Luke (Tatooine image, pretty sure they had the gun port vers. as well) on ROTJ card for around £45-£50 I think it was.. It's in storage now with the rest of my collection.


Now I know it was too good to be true..

 

[ace]

ok guys so you want to call me out ? well its not the first time on here and it will not be the lat time , it is a wast of all our time and its really not going to help resolve this matter and help us learn more about what toni has getting up to ?

you are both losing site or the real crime here and the person that is hiding from everyone and dare not respond to many of the people on heres points ?

well i will respond to your points , you then can try to twist what i say and you can try to catch me out , but there is nothing here for me to be caught out on so i will respond.

one other thing guys its easy to attack the messenger , but have you thought whats its like to be the message ?

There is two of you at this time calling me out right now, there has been many in this thread around 15 so far, it would be easier for me to just not bother and walk away 50 pages back, but that would be wrong for the collating community and the right thing to do here is stand my ground and fight for the truth, not that you will remember this post by the end of this thread when its get to 150 pages ?.

i am the whistle blower here and i am the messenger and time will show i am doing the right thing for all collectors and i will came one thing for may self credit for standing my ground and telling the truth how ever hard it was.

now to your points
1
when i bought the figures from Arthur i thought they would all be in good shape when they turned up some of the Hoth troopers were messed up , these i stated to sell of at the time and for many years latter and i sold them off for no more than lose figures sold for at the same time as i felt the cards were worthless and that was all i could get for them,

i did not sell them at a premium or at the mint carded price so what they were was not really important to anyone 10 years ago , the better carded troopers i did sell also and i thought they were smiler to the mismatched carded figures that were also turning up at that time some of the bubbles were not amazing but thought nothing more about it till this all kicked off so know crime there .


2
the fetts i paid 45p each for them and sold them for 1.50p each and they were opened that night when Craig got them that night
i thought they were fine factory carded figures as they looked good to me and Craig was happy with his 440 fetts and as he opened them he did not care what cards they were and they looked good and just opened them so no crime there ether ?

3

i knew there was 25,000 figures but there was carded figures and cards and figures and at that time it was a little confusing what Arthur had so i took them for what they looked like figures on cards with some that looked like seconds or rejects ? but most looked good and the fetts looked very good and even now i do not know with all this info coming out if there were good or not ?



so thats it again guys thats the truth , i hope if Toni comes on here you drill him in the same way ;-).

jason

 

[M4K3R1]

Jason, not calling anybody out mate.
I am how ever stating the only real and proven fact in this debate,
and that is by your admission, not knowing, are the source for hundreds of these being put out to the masses, even though you yourself questioned them at the time, and still sold them on.
Its irrellevent what you sold them for at the time.
You didnt sell them loose, you sold them carded, and they are still floating around today.
Wether or not the collectors at the time you sold them to, were as fussy as collectors are today, means nothing.
Items you yourself have said you questioned, were passed on by you at the time.
I wonder if as you sold all these items back then, you let the buyer know your suspicions.
Does that make sense to you.

 

[ace]

let me respond to all your points just incase people think i am avoiding something when i am 100% not

Isnt that exactlly what TT has said, he knows nothing about the post factory sealing,

but he dose as he offered to trade with me for the figures he needed to put on the cards when he first got them , so he knows it and i know he knows it , it happened its just you do not know and only have my word as there is fragmented evidence but its the truth.

just the same as you knew nothing about it.

no he knew i did not know what i bought was put together this way and in fact i still do not know what i sold was done that way , it is likely now everything has come to light, but at the time i did not know , Toni knew as he bought the cards and he has been buying up the figures he needs to put them on the cards again it seems from his Ebay 30 name change account.

You seem hellbent on pinning this on him without any proof.

no there is lost of proof and he has done this it will become clear

can i ask you also why are you hellbent on making it out i have a vendetta on Toni when i have not , am just telling it how it is no more no less

You always redirect any question to yourself back to concentrating on TT, why,

well i do not consider myself on trial here as i have not done anything wrong or criminal.

also as this thread is mostly about Toni selling these figures by himself for a minimum of over 10 years why is that part anything to do with me.

can i also ask you why when there is so much evidence coming up about things that have not involved me in any way for over a decade why do you feel to try to discredit me or try to involve me in a negative way , when i have nothing to do with Toni or his activates in any way for around 15 to 20 years ? it is odd mate.

why not question others than TT.

well i know Toni knows the real truth and aS Arthur has past away only Toni can tell us what he has been doing for the last 15 to 20 years , who else would you sagest going after to ask questions about what happend to the U graded figures Toni has been buying in the last 15 to 20 years ?

Not doubting the fact about the post factory seals being sold by TT,

so you agree that Toni is selling post factory seals carded figures ? ok well thats good as i was told by Toni and Arthur that Toni bought these cards and figures so thats manes that someone we just have to work out who put the bubbles on the card when they lived at Toni's house ? maybe its the janitor ? or Honk Kong Fuwey ?

or the fact that they are post factory seals done by someone at home,

you mean Toni's home right ?

But were is the hard and concrete proof that TT is actually doing the sealling himself.

we do not have a camera on the wall my friend , but that dose not mean just because WE do not have 100% proof but there is so much other evidence its getting close to being able to go legal if someone wanted to i can see that and i think many on here can also now .

its like the moon landings , me in my home right now cannot prove we wheat to the moon but there is a lot of evidence around me showing me they did but it would be hard for me to prove it tonight in my house.

As for TT bying the U grade figures that match up to the type of figures TT is selling on sealed cards,
can you or anyone actually match a loose figure TT bought to one TT sold on a sealled card.

good people are woking on it as we speak

If you cant, then all you have is TT selling the post factory seals unknowinglly, just the same as you did.

i think in the last week we have found out loads this is still very young give us another week and more will come out , i know of several people that are holding back as they do not want to have to go thought these as they would be seen also as the messenger.

Not questioning the post factory sealed debate,
but the fact that you are still acusing him of doing the sealling himself,with out the solid evidence need to prove this.

no i do nto think i ever said he is doing it himself , all i said was that he bought them when they were not put together and he is selling the same cards that was offered to me and that he said he bought assembled thats what i said.

are you trying to get me to say something that that could put me in a legally bad position ? are you a good friend of Toni ? you seem very pro Toni and are really trying to put a very negative slant on me and give an excuse for everything we have discovered on Toni's activates

Hope you understand what i am trying to convey to you.

you are trying to convey that i am a vindictive person all out for revenge and that Toni has done nothing really wrong and we cannot prove anything if he had done anything ?
Did i get what you are trying to convey right Oscar ?

well Toni told me himself he bought the cards and figures the end, so where are the cards now without the figures on them ? why is Toni buying U grad figures ?

i am sorry Oscar its well past all this everyone can see it happened , we do not need a devil's advocate if you really want to help people that have been wronged then maybe you should start to help all the 100s of people that have bought things that now are looking to me worthless and the other collectors that even have good genuine figures that are also going to be affected if we do not get to the bottom of all this .

so maybe you should start to help and take the side of the victims of all this the collectors rather than trying to take apart my credibility as i am just the whistle blower

Regards.
Oscar.

hope that helps and i hope you donot think me as coming over to harsh but i have had to deal with this now for many days and i think we all really need to get past this point , there is way to much circumstantial evidence that can be proven now Oscar you have to see that now

jason

 

[ace]

You didnt sell them loose, you sold them carded, and they are still floating around today.
Wether or not the collectors at the time you sold them to, were as fussy as collectors are today, means nothing.
Items you yourself have said you questioned, were passed on by you at the time.
I wonder if as you sold all these items back then, you let the buyer know your suspicions.
Does that make sense to you.

i think you are trying to twist what i am saying and you are really side-tracking this and you are not helping anyone M4K3R1

look at this figure , look at it can there is something wrong with it ,this is what turned up from Arthur some of them was as bad as this i thought at the time that they came from the factory as seconded ? that was my belief i have never been shore what the true story was and is on these figures i bought to be frank, so i cannot sell them as anything other that what it is, i could not have warned anyone or lied or anything as there was nothing i knew about them apart from what you see , and thats is there is something thats not right with it and any cusormer can see that by looking at it 100%

on these its is a big fault but the rest was good and seemed good so i sold them on i have to also say there was not just cards and lose figures on that list i got from Arthur there was lost of carded figures also so why would i think they were not the carded figures i was offered and came from the factory like all the figures i had bought in the past ?, think about it i got what i thought i had bought why would i think differently?

 

[M4K3R1]

Look Jason, i wont be commenting after this.
Where is the proof TT is doing the sealing himself.
Circumstantial is not proof.
Heresay is not proff.
Your opinion is not proof.
It is proven that he is selling a dodgy batch, same as you with out knowing.
Until other provable facts arrise, thats all it is.

Cheers mate.

 

[ace]

Look Jason, i wont be commenting after this.
Where is the proof TT is doing the sealing himself.
Circumstantial is not proof.
Heresay is not proff.
Your opinion is not proof.
It is proven that he is selling a dodgy batch, same as you with out knowing.
Until other provable facts arrise, thats all it is.

Cheers mate.

M4K3R1 how many cards do you have in your collection that is going to be affected if what we have uncovered here is proven to be 100% proven and walter tight ?

because you are fighting a battle that is lost already

jason

 

[M4K3R1]

You didnt sell them loose, you sold them carded, and they are still floating around today.
Wether or not the collectors at the time you sold them to, were as fussy as collectors are today, means nothing.
Items you yourself have said you questioned, were passed on by you at the time.
I wonder if as you sold all these items back then, you let the buyer know your suspicions.
Does that make sense to you.

i think you are trying to twist what i am saying and you are really side-tracking this and you are not helping anyone M4K3R1

look at this figure , look at it can there is something wrong with it ,this is what turned up from Arthur some of them was as bad as this i thought at the time that they came from the factory as seconded ? that was my belief i have never been shore what the true story was and is on these figures i bought to be frank, so i cannot sell them as anything other that what it is, i could not have warned anyone or lied or anything as there was nothing i knew about them apart from what you see , and thats is there is something thats not right with it and any cusormer can see that by looking at it 100%

on these its is a big fault but the rest was good and seemed good and i have to say there was not just cards on that list so why would i think they were not the carded figures i was offered and came from the factory like that , think about i,t i got what i thought i had bought why would i think differently?

Yes there is a big fault on that, the triangular tip shape in the 2 top corners or the bubble, what is now being called the Iron on seal.
You got it from the batch you bought like that.
Not twisting, not sidetracking. The community is doing quite an excellnt job peicing how to tell the differnce from good and bad.
If you recieved the batch like that, what to say the batch TT got was'nt the same.
The only thing you can link TT name to is selling these for now, not making them.

 

[M4K3R1]

Look Jason, i wont be commenting after this.
Where is the proof TT is doing the sealing himself.
Circumstantial is not proof.
Heresay is not proff.
Your opinion is not proof.
It is proven that he is selling a dodgy batch, same as you with out knowing.
Until other provable facts arrise, thats all it is.

Cheers mate.

M4K3R1 how many cards do you have in your collection that is going to be affected if what we have uncovered here is proven to be 100% proven and walter tight ?

because you are fighting a battle that is lost already

jason

Jason, i dont know TT, and dont know you,
i have no cards that fall into this catogory.
I am however a firm beleiver of put you money were you mouth is
before killing someones rep by circumstantial evidence,
when TT is only so far proven to be selling these, mot making.

 

[ace]

Jason, i dont know TT, and dont know you,
i have no cards that fall into this catogory.
I am however a firm beleiver of put you money were you mouth is
before killing someones rep by circumstantial evidence,
when TT is only so far proven to be selling these, mot making.

Thats fine then but i do not have time to wast on someone having a bit of fun being devil's advocate

no one is paying me or the other people on here that are trying to help , we get nothing for all the time we have spent on here helping to put the peaces together, i would prefer to have had a restful holiday before my work starts up again and i could have done without having to defend myself when i have done nothing other then be the whistle blower.

So if this dose not effect you and you are not looking to help resolve this so others do not suffer more as this thing unfolds or explodes the entire hobby then i hope you do not mind if i stop wasting my time on this Q&A with you, anyone can ague for the sake of it but it is wasting my time.

I have better things to do than to explain something that will be proven anyway in time, so save your words and give the members on here the time they need and you will see the truth come out.

maybe you can find Toni and spend your time cross examining the real person that should be on here being questioned by yourself and everyone else that wants answers.

have good night

j