Resealed figure discovery debate - G.Kurtz Palitoy VC Jawa.

[wbobafett]

I again checked all the pics I have gathered and searched again the web on FETT on ROTJ 45C!

So this will alll about BOBA FETT ROTJ 45C (Pal)

There is 482 :shock: unused cardbacks on the list that Joiner has posted!

I repost Billy Boys posts from 2003 again!
http://forum.rebelscum.com/t809708/

[Billy_Boy]....

Over a decade ago I truly 'struggled' to find the 'almost fabled' Palitoy RotJ 45 back of the 'Tri-logo' (light blue) Boba Fett...BUT now there are quite a few 'out there'!?!
There is a rumoured 'theory' that many of the remaining figures near the demise of Palitoy in the UK, were carded on to any surplus cardback going?! = The 'Tri-logo' Boba Fett variant certainly would 'fit the bill'! = I didn't originally see an example at retail until late 1984 / early '85?!? So how did it end up on the late 1982 / early '83 45 back?

= Palitoy had a Boba Fett on the Tri-logo card too!

Does anyone know where this 'glut' of European 45 backs actually/specifically came from???

Bill


...and:

[Billy_Boy]Sure!...Not ALL German 45 backs are easy to find!

Far from it in fact! BUT just recently a LOT of 'case fresh' examples have been appearing?!

= Can anyone explain to me why?

ALL the Palitoy RotJ 45 back 'Tri-logo' Boba Fetts that have only recently appeared seem to be in near 'perfect' condition too?!

= Am I the only collector to find this a little 'odd'? + Does anyone have a 'worn' carded example below 'C8'???

Bill

And that is the same question 10 years later:

Has anyone ever seen a lightblue "trilogo" Fett on a worn ROTJ 45C or 65 back??

I haven't!

What I have found:


1. IRONED FETTS

I still doubt these are connected to the same ones we call Toni's now. These are really sloppy...with no sense for where the bubble belongs...etc!!

What is interesting about those:
A. They probably come from the same batch of loose unused cardbacks!
B. The ironed stuff lacks the potential to hold for ever. A lot of have been falling part!
C. MOST important to me is the fact that also lightblue, so called Trilogo Fetts were used for those!!!

What you can see here is one lifted example (to the right) with clear iron marks and the triangular tab between the stem. I also found two loose cardbacks (RS limelight, Ebay). These are 100% ironed examples. One even has the triangular iron mark present below. Both have the blister sealed waaaay to high (compare to the MOC) and both seem to have lifted easily!

Again: Imo these are not from the same creator of the TT MOCs!


2. LEGIT CARDBACKS

It was hard to find some more loose cardbacks but I have found two! These do both NOT MATCH A SINGLE AFA 90 (= TT MOC). They both only have one sealed brother I have found. And this one has a footer and a waffle pattern!

As you can see on the MOC example the thickness of the seal as well as the position is a match! The Moc is Plaitoy ROTJ 45C unpunched. The part of the blister which has flat contact to the cardback is not sealed fully. It is only sealed were the waffle pattern appears and that is a telltale how the "form" must have looked that heatsealed those in factory.

What also can be seen is the lack of a seal in the middle lower bottom. If we look at the carded example, we can conclude that the footer maybe was a tiny bit to thick and at the very lower bottom prevented a correct seal.

But please decide yourself....all three are a total match IMO.



3. QUESTIONABLE CARDBACKS

On all those other casfresh crads I have found not ONE USED LOOSE CADBACK OR A MOC WITH CREASES, PRICESTICKER etc!

Have a look, there is three types:
(please do not take too much attention to the 3-D shape of the bubble...these are mostly photoshopped to compare the card and position of the blister...all in one and the same level...so everything that is 3-d is off...mostly...LOL)


FIRST TYPE: No Stem Blister. All aligned to the white border on the right. With Aligned I mean the inner border of the blister! See the vertical red line!

SECOND TYPE: Double Stem Blister. All aligned to the white border on the right. With Aligned I mean the outer border of the blister! See the vertical red line!

THIRD TYPE: Double Stem Blister. All aligned to the white border on the left. With Aligned I mean the outer border of the blister! See the vertical red line!

On the COOs of those: We have mostly "Trilogo" no coo figures on that (like on the ironed ones!!!). We also have small HK, large HK and Taiwan marked Fetts! Is this normal?? I dont know......


Again, all of those cards above are:
A. Minty Mint
B. Punched but never saw a shop (price sticker). Even thou these cards DO exist UNPUNCHED....see the wffle pattern one!
C. Contain a figure that should have appeared way later (Trilogo Fett) and also match the figure examples that were found on the ironed ones!
D. NOT ONE USED LOOSE OR MOC FROM THOSE IS KNOWN!


Anyone else?? I also find it disturbing that there seemed to be always the use of a "refernece line"

Please dig out your loose cardbacks! I really would love to see a ripped and used double stem....

Wolff

PS: Please excuse my spelling

 

[lee gray]

The very first Fett i got from Toni had a huge corner crease in the card, although was the regular version, after that i stated what condition i wanted just to make sure it never happened again.
What i have noticed over time, originally on tbe website it stated c9.5 then it dropped to c9+ then c9 and now its c8.5 so its been gradually dropping like he is down to his lesser condition stock now.

 

[Palifan]

Does anyone know this ebay member as they might be able to help out in some way?

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Vintage-Kenner-Palitoy-Star-Wars-Figure-FX-7-Medical-Droid-/350966551921?pt=UK_Collectables_SciFi_fantasyCollectables_EH&hash=item51b73c9571

Ian

 

[wbobafett]

Additional stuff on the Palitoy Fetts:

1. Alex has posted another legit example (cardback) over on TIG:

http://www.imperialgunneryforum.com/t6544p240-the-general-mills-45-back-palitoy-non-factory-sealed-discussion

This is again the one with the very small seal area, the waffle pattern one!


2. Another one posted on LG by Spearhead24 (contained a "normal" Fett):

http://www.lichtgeschwindigkeit.de/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=9983&start=300

This one is MOSt interesting, because it finally has a double stem blisters and shows us that the third type (double stem, aligned to the left white border) seems to be a possible legit variant. At least some of those could be legit!

I JUST REALIZED: THIS ONE ALSO SEEM TO HAVE THE CRESCENT ON TOP! MAYBE THIS IS REALLY THE KEY ON THE DOUBLE STEMS!?!?!?

DOES ANYONE HAVE A PAL 45C ROTJ BOBA FETT WITH CRESCENT ON DOUBLE STEM???


3. Most interesting I find this finding (pmed by Santrooper-5 on LG)

This is a Palitoy Fett 65 back! You can clearly see that a "tool" for a double stem blister was used! That's why the blister is positioned pretty high.....if you imagine the stems below it would be aligned to the bottom line of the cardback. You can also see that the blister seems to flush on the left.

Now what does that mean?? TT only had a tool made for double stem blisters?? The factory used the wrong tool for that blister?? Any ideas?? I find this most interesting, but I am not sure at all what to think of it!!!

It would also explain an earlier question in this thread why some 45 backs have an edged seal (possibly used tool from trilogo blisters) and some have a round seal to the corners (correct used tool).



4. and last but not least another ironed one:
http://i58.servimg.com/u/f58/17/02/62/79/dscn6713.jpg

posted by cantina_patron over on TIG (it also contained a Trilogo figure)
http://www.imperialgunneryforum.com/t6544p240-the-general-mills-45-back-palitoy-non-factory-sealed-discussion


Thanks for all the help guys!


Wolff

 

[lee gray]

Additional stuff on the Palitoy Fetts:

1. Alex has posted another legit example (cardback) over on TIG:

http://www.imperialgunneryforum.com/t6544p240-the-general-mills-45-back-palitoy-non-factory-sealed-discussion

This is again the one with the very small seal area, the waffle pattern one!


2. Another one posted on LG by Spearhead24 (contained a "normal" Fett):

http://www.lichtgeschwindigkeit.de/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=9983&start=300

This one is MOSt interesting, because it finally has a double stem blisters and shows us that the third type (double stem, aligned to the left white border) seems to be a possible legit variant. At least some of those could be legit!

I JUST REALIZED: THIS ONE ALSO SEEM TO HAVE THE CRESCENT ON TOP! MAYBE THIS IS REALLY THE KEY ON THE DOUBLE STEMS!?!?!?

DOES ANYONE HAVE A PAL 45C ROTJ BOBA FETT WITH CRESCENT ON DOUBLE STEM???


3. Most interesting I find this finding (pmed by Santrooper-5 on LG)

This is a Palitoy Fett 65 back! You can clearly see that a "tool" for a double stem blister was used! That's why the blister is positioned pretty high.....if you imagine the stems below it would be aligned to the bottom line of the cardback. You can also see that the blister seems to flush on the left.

Now what does that mean?? TT only had a tool made for double stem blisters?? The factory used the wrong tool for that blister?? Any ideas?? I find this most interesting, but I am not sure at all what to think of it!!!

It would also explain an earlier question in this thread why some 45 backs have an edged seal (possibly used tool from trilogo blisters) and some have a round seal to the corners (correct used tool).



4. and last but not least another ironed one:
http://i58.servimg.com/u/f58/17/02/62/79/dscn6713.jpg

posted by cantina_patron over on TIG (it also contained a Trilogo figure)
http://www.imperialgunneryforum.com/t6544p240-the-general-mills-45-back-palitoy-non-factory-sealed-discussion


Thanks for all the help guys!


Wolff

If you notice on the legit one with the name cut out, that on the back of the card there is no red blob next to chewbacca and all 10 or more i got direct from Toni whether it was light blue fett, regular fett, double stem or oversized rectangle bubble they all had the red blob, not saying that the red blob ones are all non legit but what i am saying i think it can be safe to assume Toni only ever had the fetts with the red blob next to chewbacca so all non red blob ones are defo legit.

As for the iron on double stem as seen on TIG

this is the first time i seen the picture like that and I have to admit I have had a couple like that where the inbetween section wasnt fully sealed and if u pushed the top parts which were not sealed, it the plastic there felt very flimsy as not as strong as the rest of the bubble and if you actually jolted the card so the figure moved, it would actually pushed down on the non sealed part and make a big dent as thats why i always thought these were more fragile.

Here is an afa 95 fett i use to own single grade, I dont think you can make it out but if you look inbetween the double stem there is a bubbling effect, when i got it i couldnt believe that it recieved a 95 because it looks like it was full of bubbles

 

[mr_palitoy]

I've just had my bobas out for the boys.

There are 2 types of ROTJ 45 back cards for Boba Fett:-

http://www.freewebs.com/mrpalitoy/rotj45ccardback.htm

The regular 45C has this on the back right hand corner:-

An the 45CG has an added HG afterwards:-

The cards I have are as follows:-

45CG cardback - lots of bubble rip on the front
45C cardback - hardly any imprint of the bubble on the front of the card (likely to be an early reseal that wasn't attcached very well)
45C cardback - name tag cut out, debenhams price sticker, double stem with circle/crescent at top and unglued middle at bottom
45C cardback - name tag cut out, double stem with circle/crescent at top and unglued middle at bottom

AFA 90 MOC 45C Light Blue unpainted knee with rectangular bubble

All the cards have a red dot next to the Chewbacca on the back of the card apart from the 45CG. They also all have a slight shifting
on the print of the STAR WARS logo on the front of the card apart from the 45CG.

So I think these particular print errors didn't make any impact on whether the cards made it to market or not.

The bubble placement is the same on the suspected Toni's as on the one's which were shop sold, so I don't think
we can read anything into bubble placements on the card/figure combo either.

If you have a 45CG then it's not one of Tonis.

Can provide photos of any or all cards if required.

cheers Jason

 

[mr_palitoy]

This is a scan from a mid 90's toy magazine scanned by David Tree showing what Toni was offering pre toytoni.com
I have blacked out phone numbers and addresses.

cheers Jason

 

[skywalker]

Bloody hell he had alot of stuff back then..

 

[wbobafett]

...
Can provide photos of any or all cards if required.

cheers Jason

Hey Jason, I really would like to see the four used cardbacks if possible!

Thank you!

Wolff

 

[KevinA]

I just took a look at my two 65 back Palitoy 4LOMs (none on the list but I thought I'd check anyways). One of them has an Italian import sticker on it, so I'd assume that one is safe. The other matches perfectly. One thing I noticed is they are both unsealed along the bottom where the double stem bubble would be. I'm not sure if this has been mentioned or is useful or not. I thought it was interesting though that Palitoy seemingly just used the same machine to seal all the bubbles. I thought they would've changed it depending on the bubble type.

Wolff, maybe you missed my post a couple of days before Christmas. I have a couple of 4-LOMs with the double stem seal.

 

[wbobafett]

yupp..missed it! :lol:

Good one! We can now be sure these are also real I guess!


Oh boy...what a puzzle! I just found another old and very interesting thread...not sure if it was mentioned before??

http://forum.rebelscum.com/t814644-4/#post14049330

Henrik_Berndt
I bought a bunch of trilogo Fetts from a dealer in the London area some five years ago, he said he'd bought the at a car boot sale near leicester i the 80´s. Apparently the glue had gone bad and the bouble had all separated, so they could not sell them normally. He also told me there were boxes of Snowtroopers too.
I also got a few cardbacks and boubles. It was clear, however, that the cardbacks had been used, even if the wear and tear from the bouble was minimal, so they could not or cannot be confused with unused examples.
If only I'd taken them all. He had more than 100 loose unplayed TriFetts


Billy_Boy
The 50 or so examples I purchased (and then proceeded to sell) were all 'saved' from destruction in 1985!

None of the unused cards I saw were ESB 45A/B cards... BUT there were quite a few RotJ 45Cs and 65s!

Considering the number of 'case fresh' Pal 45 B/C cards and Dutch/German Pal 45s that 'hit the market' at the same time... I'd imagine* hundreds of these sealed boxes were 'flogged off' cheaply at the sad demise of Palitoy! *= I recently had this 'assumption' partly confirmed from an original pair of buyers too!

I've been told (from reliable sources) that the Tri 'Snowtroopers' were found loose in VAST supply at carboot sales around Leicester! Some were complete in baggies, whilst a few examples had strange MOULDED 'grey limbs'? I doubt these were ever true 'protos', BUT were probably just 'tests' of some form in the Palitoy factory!

Hundreds of Tri PotF items were exported for sale on mainland Europe and the Tri-logo 4-Packs and 64 figure boxes were sold through various warehouses in the UK!

I can also vividly recall seeing dozens of Palitoy 45C Boba Fetts (mostly Tri 'light blue' versions) for sale at only 49-69 pence each! I'd seen the odd example of this variant on imported Meccano RotJ and Tri-logo cards, BUT I hadn't spotted that many for sale at retail on this particular cardback before?

The same goes for some other 'Tri Variants'... like the Pal 65** 'dark brown booted' Luke Bespin, the Pal 45 'pale faced' Han Hoth and the Pal 45 'pale faced' AT-AT Commander figures etc???

Items just started to appear 'from out of the woodwork' that simply hadn't been seen by collectors that often before? The sheer numbers of Tri Boba Fetts were dazzling!!! = I just wish I'd bought more of them to keep at that time too!

It certainly was a great time to buy masses of the toys at 'bargain' prices!!!

Bill

 

[mr_palitoy]

Done some daytime analysis and pictures on my bobas.
2 new things I can see in daylight.

1)price sticker residue on the 45CG
2)iron marks at the top of the card on my suspected opened Toni!

top left - 45CG cardback - lots of bubble rip on the front, price sticker residue
top right - 45C cardback - hardly any imprint of the bubble on the front of the card and iron marks at the top of the card (an early Toni that wasn't attached very well)
bottom left - 45C cardback - name tag cut out, debenhams price sticker, double stem with circle/crescent at top and unglued middle at bottom
bottom right - 45C cardback - name tag cut out, double stem with circle/crescent at top and unglued middle at bottom

And this is a picture of my AFA 90 from ESB/ROTJ AFA 90 Palitoy MOC focus

cheers Jason

 

[mr_palitoy]

And guess who I bought the boba fett card with iron marks on it from in 2005? Yes, marksing, aka Toni!

I bid on 4 cardbacks:-

You Won eBay Item: PALITOY ESB 45 BACK BOSSK CARDBACK (6007970286)
You Won eBay Item: PALITOY ROTJ 45 BACK LUKE BESPIN CARDBACK (6007968883)
You Won eBay Item: PALITOY ROTJ 65 BACK DARTH VADER CARDBACK (6007967337)
eBay Outbid Notice: PALITOY ROTJ 45 BACK BOBA FETT CARDBACK (6007966963)

Then when I'm paying for the 3 I won, I get this:-

"?
hi i have another fett card in similar shape are you interested at your bid if so i can send pic toni"

I then pay for the additional boba fett card as well with a cheque for all 4 (Toni doesnt like taking paypal in 2005)

So, there's proof he's selling ironed cards which the bubbles fell off!

cheers Jason

 

[mr_palitoy]

And the other 3 cards listed above also have iron marks on them and minimal bubble imprint!



Jason

 

[mr_palitoy]

Have sent another email to Toni asking him to explain the used cardbacks with iron marks on them.

cheers Jason

 

[mr_palitoy]

The 65 Back Vader is worrying as it isnt on jj's list. But there are 29 graded 65 back Palitoy Darth Vaders on the AFA population report, so I would put this card on this list too in light
of my Darth Vader cardback with iron marks purchased directly from Toni in 2005.



Jason

 

[Caswellbot]

Great work Jason and a definite link to Toni on the cardbacks.

 

[jimbody1]

So is there an up to date list of what may not be genuine now?

 

[wbobafett]

Thanks Jason again for the effort!


Jason, I am still not sure if the ironed once really came from Toni. Wouldn't it make more sense that he had the loose cardbacks for sale becaues he could very well use the minty figures inside the ironed ones (that he propably got cheap)??

Summarize:

A. We have four bubble styles on those 45C ROTJ cardbacks:
- non stem
- non stem waffle pattern (with footer)
- double stem
- single stem (just one popped up on ebay)

These are the carded ones existing. But not all of those do exist as loose cardbacks. What do we have now:

- The waffle pattern ones with footer seem to be the 45CG ones. We have now gathered one MOC and 4 loose cardbacks: CONFIRMED LEGIT

- The double stem ones are partially legit. All 4 loose cards have the crescent! So please check your double stem Tonis for that!
DOUBLE STEM WITH CRESCENT CONFIRMED LEGIT!

All others, single stem and non stem blisters on 45C (only waffle on 45CG is legit) could be fake!

Please dig out more used cardbacks!!

 

[mr_palitoy]

Thanks Jason again for the effort!


Jason, I am still not sure if the ironed once really came from Toni. Wouldn't it make more sense that he had the loose cardbacks for sale becaues he could very well use the minty figures inside the ironed ones (that he propably got cheap)??

Summarize:

A. We have four bubble styles on those 45C ROTJ cardbacks:
- non stem
- non stem waffle pattern (with footer)
- double stem
- single stem (just one popped up on ebay)

These are the carded ones existing. But not all of those do exist as loose cardbacks. What do we have now:

- The waffle pattern ones with footer seem to be the 45CG ones. We have now gathered one MOC and 4 loose cardbacks: CONFIRMED LEGIT

- The double stem ones are partially legit. All 4 loose cards have the crescent! So please check your double stem Tonis for that!
DOUBLE STEM WITH CRESCENT CONFIRMED LEGIT!

All others, single stem and non stem blisters on 45C (only waffle on 45CG is legit) could be fake!

Please dig out more used cardbacks!!

Yes, they did come from Toni. The cardbacks he sold me with iron marks on them are the ones on jj's list that were originally
unused cardbacks. (Darth Vader is missing from the list but has 29 AFA graded examples so likely to be Toni's too).

I only bid on some of his auctions, there were many more in all likelihood.

I also missed out on:-

eBay Outbid Notice: PALITOY ROTJ 45 BACK LUKE SKYWALKER CARDBACK (6007969261)


I asked him about this lot:-

10 VINTAGE PALITOY CARDBACKS FETT,HAN,LUKE+7 (260123005997)

Me:- Yes I know that. Which indvidual cards are 45 and which are 65? cheers Jason
Toni:- vader/c3po/hoth trooper 65 the rest 45 ta toni

Again, all the cards he had unused backing cards for.

I have full emails with all this in it.

He was selling on the cards for his early ironing efforts where all the bubbles fell off!

cheers Jason

 

[Dark Sith Lord]

Before the list surfaced I had some concern about these 3 MOC's but now it's just the Hammerhead, I can see the bubble position from the back implying there was pressure used, although it's not as visable as the other 2 MOC's. also seen a GM PD in hand yesterday which looks the same as my Hammerhead from the back.

These pics aren't great but if any one wants something else just ask
http://s19.photobucket.com/user/scotthughes1/library/Pics

Can see the pics now.

Hmm, I can see that Palitoy ROTJ Walrusman is not on JJ's list. I have one, and assumed it was on the list. But the list is inaccurate and it is a figure/card combo
that has been on sale on toytoni.com multiple times, and there are at least 10 AFA graded and it's one you can pick up minty mint quite easily.

So I would put that in question too.

Jason

Also Jason I think Junior Chubb has a Palitoy 65 Back Walrusman he brought from me? I in turn brought from auction? Perhaps he could help shed some light on that?

I was worried about my ROTJ Palitoy Wally from when this thread started. After FF I was more confident in its authenticity as I had a better idea of what to look for (loosely). I was confident with the bubble, the figure has a turned head which I guess any fraudster would have straightened out to help cover their tracks. Then after 'The List' appeared I took a big sigh of relief (from a totally self centered view point :wink: ).

The card is also just far enough away from minty mint and a slight ding in the bubble, enough to convince me that this has not lead its whole life in the hands of a collector.

I will get some pics taken and post them up...

Hey Chris! Just caught up with this thread!

Good to hear that that it sounds legit!

Look forward to the pics!

 

[wbobafett]

Guys, I have to make a little announcement:

I became somewhat a "spokesman" for this research. I am getting lost of all the pms and emails I am recieving on all boards with questions and pictures and I must honestly say:

I cannot handle it!

I cannot handle it because I am simply not a MOC collector. I never had one of those in my hands. I am 100% a loose collector. I only tried to be helpfull on this. This story is IMO part of the whole community and no matter what I do collect this needs to be solved for the sake of the hobby...our hobby!

Lots of things are now in danger! I am only thinking of Javi's new book about PBP and spanish figures this TT story brings a major turn to the history of those figures. If we cannot be sure anymore if the PBP Bossk, PBP Luke Framboy, the lightblue Fett and other late PBP or trilogo figures actually appeared on those 45backs this brings a whole segment of the hobby (research wise) to an end!

I think lots of interesting points were raised up now. We found out about crescents, structured seals, ironed stuff, blister position, Coos, bubble types used etc etc etc.

The only thing that now would be really of help is a data base! Someone needs to collect the data from all known cards of the community. I see no other solution. As long as only two or three people are going through their collection to help out this will become and stay a never ending train wreck!

IMO the key are the loose and used cradbacks. You need to study them. These are the ones you can rely on...the ones that are 100% legit! I am sure if we try hard we will find out a general identification point!

But honestly I am missing most of the "big" fishes in the discussion. It would be nice to hear that something is going on in the background...maybe the solution is already there and a case is made up, but I doubt it. I am just wondering, because it seems many of the collectors seem to sit at home, fingers crossed that nothing can't be said for sure....just waiting....

I am personally out of this. I cannot go deeper because I don't have any of those in hands. It doesn't help me as a loose collector bringing up some points if there is very less response on that. It doesn't help if the MOC community doesn't take this in their own hands. You have the cards there, just try to figure it out! Do the messurements, collect the data and post it up. Combine forces.

This thing took all my holiday time away....from now on I will again concentrate on work and family. I am sorry guys. I did everything possible for a guy that never collected MOCs. I was really trying hard to find a solution, but my possibilties are now coming to a limit.

The good thing is I learned much on the issue...packaging process, MOC variants, blister types...LOL....

I hope you understand.

Wolff

(PS: I am still here for Coo questions. That is my area of expertise )

 

[mr_palitoy]

Guys, I have to make a little announcement:

I became somewhat a "spokesman" for this research. I am getting lost of all the pms and emails I am recieving on all boards with questions and pictures and I must honestly say:

I cannot handle it!

I cannot handle it because I am simply not a MOC collector. I never had one of those in my hands. I am 100% a loose collector. I only tried to be helpfull on this. This story is IMO part of the whole community and no matter what I do collect this needs to be solved for the sake of the hobby...our hobby!

Lots of things are now in danger! I am only thinking of Javi's new book about PBP and spanish figures this TT story brings a major turn to the history of those figures. If we cannot be sure anymore if the PBP Bossk, PBP Luke Framboy, the lightblue Fett and other late PBP or trilogo figures actually appeared on those 45backs this brings a whole segment of the hobby (research wise) to an end!

I think lots of interesting points were raised up now. We found out about crescents, structured seals, ironed stuff, blister position, Coos, bubble types used etc etc etc.

The only thing that now would be really of help is a data base! Someone needs to collect the data from all known cards of the community. I see no other solution. As long as only two or three people are going through their collection to help out this will become and stay a never ending train wreck!

IMO the key are the loose and used cradbacks. You need to study them. These are the ones you can rely on...the ones that are 100% legit! I am sure if we try hard we will find out a general identification point!

But honestly I am missing most of the "big" fishes in the discussion. It would be nice to hear that something is going on in the background...maybe the solution is already there and a case is made up, but I doubt it. I am just wondering, because it seems many of the collectors seem to sit at home, fingers crossed that nothing can't be said for sure....just waiting....

I am personally out of this. I cannot go deeper because I don't have any of those in hands. It doesn't help me as a loose collector bringing up some points if there is very less response on that. It doesn't help if the MOC community doesn't take this in their own hands. You have the cards there, just try to figure it out! Do the messurements, collect the data and post it up. Combine forces.

This thing took all my holiday time away....from now on I will again concentrate on work and family. I am sorry guys. I did everything possible for a guy that never collected MOCs. I was really trying hard to find a solution, but my possibilties are now coming to a limit.

The good thing is I learned much on the issue...packaging process, MOC variants, blister types...LOL....

I hope you understand.

Wolff

(PS: I am still here for Coo questions. That is my area of expertise )

No problem Wolff, your insight on bubble measurements was a great help. There's only so much you can get from pictures.
Most of the iron marks I've been finding on cardbacks only show up if you twist the card in the light to see them for example!

cheers Jason

 

[Richard_H]

I'd like to say well done and thank you Wolf for the time that you've put into this. It's important now that you spend time with your family you've put a lot of effort and time into this.

 

[Alas-1]

I can confirm that Toy Toni sold LOADS of Prune Face, Snowtroopers, Skiff Disguise Landos and of course Threepios ALL case fresh, Palitoy ROTJ, MINT bubbles and MINT Cards... He's sold around 50 Jawas on Meccano cards...
He is obviously a dude with SERIOUS knowledge. And with SERIOUS stocks of Vintage....

Why are you all focusing on Fetts??? Have I missed something through this whole thread??

Can we have a quick breakdown of what has happened so far like someone did about half way in? LOL sorry....

Hello all by the way....

 

[mike-skywalker]

Here are the measuring results of the blister. I added a few in the Album.

http://s487.photobucket.com/user/mike-skywalker/library/German%20ESB%20Cardbacks?sort=9&page=1

Sorry, the list is not in alphabetical order.
DSB= Double Stem Blister
SSB= Single Stem Blister

TIE-Fighter Pilot DSB 66/36 X2
Rebel Soldier DSB orange background 65/35
Rebel Soldier SSB red background 64/36 X2
Cloud Car Pilot SSB 64/36 X2
Bossk DSB 64/40
Bossk SSB dark green background 68/35
C3-PO SSB dark green background 74/38 (what a hughe blister!!!)
C3-PO DSB light green blisterbackground 66/36
C-3PO DSB dark green background 68/36 X2
Snowtrooper probably SSB 69/37
Snowtrooper DSB 64/35
Han Solo Bespin DSB light green background 64/35 (wider blister)
Han Solo Bespin DSB dark green background 58/36
Luke Hoth DSB english text 60/39
Luke Hoth DSB 55/36 bad printing
Darth Vader SSB 61/36
4-LOM DSB 62/35
Walrusman DSB 68/35
Princess Leia SSB 62/36
Chewbacca DSB 58/32
FX-7 DSB 72/36
Lando DSB 68/36
Imperial Commander DSB rips offs are too big
Ben Kenobi DSB or SSB 62/37
Bespin Guard black DSB dark green background 60/37
Bespin Guard black SSB light green background 63/35 X2
Luke Bespin DSB rip offs are too big
Leia Hoth DSB 60/37
Greedo 67/36
AT-AT-Commander SSB rip offs are too big
Boba Fett DSB 67/36 slightly lighter yellow background
Boba Fett DSB 67/36 slightly darker yellow background bad printing
IG-88 Cant´define the blister 58/35
Dengar SSB 64/36

 

[mr_palitoy]

Here are the measuring results of the blister. I added a few in the Album.

http://s487.photobucket.com/user/mike-skywalker/library/German%20ESB%20Cardbacks?sort=9&page=1

Sorry, the list is not in alphabetical order.
DSB= Double Stem Blister
SSB= Single Stem Blister

TIE-Fighter Pilot DSB 66/36 X2
Rebel Soldier DSB orange background 65/35
Rebel Soldier SSB red background 64/36 X2
Cloud Car Pilot SSB 64/36 X2
Bossk DSB 64/40
Bossk SSB dark green background 68/35
C3-PO SSB dark green background 74/38 (what a hughe blister!!!)
C3-PO DSB light green blisterbackground 66/36
C-3PO DSB dark green background 68/36 X2
Snowtrooper probably SSB 69/37
Snowtrooper DSB 64/35
Han Solo Bespin DSB light green background 64/35 (wider blister)
Han Solo Bespin DSB dark green background 58/36
Luke Hoth DSB english text 60/39
Luke Hoth DSB 55/36 bad printing
Darth Vader SSB 61/36
4-LOM DSB 62/35
Walrusman DSB 68/35
Princess Leia SSB 62/36
Chewbacca DSB 58/32
FX-7 DSB 72/36
Lando DSB 68/36
Imperial Commander DSB rips offs are too big
Ben Kenobi DSB or SSB 62/37
Bespin Guard black DSB dark green background 60/37
Bespin Guard black SSB light green background 63/35 X2
Luke Bespin DSB rip offs are too big
Leia Hoth DSB 60/37
Greedo 67/36
AT-AT-Commander SSB rip offs are too big
Boba Fett DSB 67/36 slightly lighter yellow background
Boba Fett DSB 67/36 slightly darker yellow background bad printing
IG-88 Cant´define the blister 58/35
Dengar SSB 64/36

Those tie in pretty well with what I measured on my german cardbacks:-

2-1b double stem 64mm 35mm (no thin waffle pattern on remaining bubble and price sticker residue, so maybe not all german cards have the thin line waffle pattern)
r2d2 sensorscope double stem 62mm 35mm
at at commander 62mm 36mm
at at driver double stem 56mm 35mm
bespin security guard black double stem 64mm 37mm
boba fett double stem white circle at top 58mm 35mm
bossk double stem 68mm 36mm
c3p0 removable limbs double stem white circle at top 62mm 37mm
chewbacca 58mm 31mm
cloud car pilot double stem 64mm 36mm
darth vader 60mm 35mm
dengar with english text on the back 82mm 46mm (had some stupidly massive bubble attached to it, and has clear iron prints on it. looks like an early Toni. we have the 11 unused dengar cardbacks down as all clipper currently, i'd at least put a 50/50 split on those in light of this card)
fx7 double stem 64mm 36mm
greed double stem 66mm 37mm
hammerhead 64mm 36mm
han solo double stem 58mm 35mm
han solo be spin double stem white circle at top 64mm 36mm
hans solo both double stem 68mm 34mm
ig88 58mm 33mm
imperial commander double stem 58mm 35mm
imperial stormtrooper double stem hoth 64mm 36mm
imperial tie fighter pilot double stem 68mm 34mm (no thin waffle pattern on remaining bubble and price sticker residue, so maybe not all german cards have the thin line waffle pattern)
land calrissian double stem 62mm 36mm
leia organa both double stem 60mm 35mm
leia organa bespin gown double stem 62mm 35mm
luke double stem 62mm 36mm
luke be spin double stem 64mm 35mm
luke both double stem 64mm 36mm
luke x-wing single stem 50mm 35mm (clear signs that the bubble was ironed on here too, though that card/figure combo isn't on jj's list)
power droid double stem 70mm 35mm
r5d4 double stem 58mm 34mm
rebel commander double stem 54mm 36mm
rebel soldier double stem 64mm 36mm
snaggletooth 60mm 37mm
star destroyer commander white circle at top 58mm 38mm
stormtrooper double stem 64mm 35mm
ugnaught 60mm 38mm
walrusman double stem 66mm 35mm
yoda double stem 60mm 35mm

cheers Jason

 

[mr_palitoy]

I can confirm that Toy Toni sold LOADS of Prune Face, Snowtroopers, Skiff Disguise Landos and of course Threepios ALL case fresh, Palitoy ROTJ, MINT bubbles and MINT Cards... He's sold around 50 Jawas on Meccano cards...
He is obviously a dude with SERIOUS knowledge. And with SERIOUS stocks of Vintage....

Why are you all focusing on Fetts??? Have I missed something through this whole thread??

Can we have a quick breakdown of what has happened so far like someone did about half way in? LOL sorry....

Hello all by the way....

Hi there, welcome, who are you?

The summary thread has some of the more important evidence in it:-

http://www.starwarsforum.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=18756&start=0

Fetts are just one of the cards he sold many mint examples of. It's a focus for a lot of collectors
and it's a popular figure that commands the highest price so people have more monetary value to lose on it.

Prune Face isn't on the list of unused cardbacks from Arthur. It's a Tri Logo with 28 graded on AFA.
Tri Logos haven't been called into question as yet.

I think those Jawa/Meccanos are genuine MOCs so are probably ok.

cheers Jason

 

[ace]

i just wanted to say good job Wolf on all you have managed to find out , i also spent my down time from work before Christmas going through boxes looking for the list , i totally understand how you feel, but you have giving a lot of your time to help others , i know many people thank you for your time spent on this, and i agree you should take time out now for family , my wife started to ask me to spend less time on this also as its was talking up all my time , i do think others should take time to help if they really want to get to the bottom of all this , i will be taking photos of the relevant figures in Jan and Feb , but i still feel that the people that have bought figures from toni needs to act and take it to the authorities ? as in the end nothing is really going to happen and more collects will be buying figures from Toni that are not what they seem ?

dose the unit in Briton still have these figures in them for sale ?

happy new year everyone

jason

 

[lee gray]

I can confirm that Toy Toni sold LOADS of Prune Face, Snowtroopers, Skiff Disguise Landos and of course Threepios ALL case fresh, Palitoy ROTJ, MINT bubbles and MINT Cards... He's sold around 50 Jawas on Meccano cards...
He is obviously a dude with SERIOUS knowledge. And with SERIOUS stocks of Vintage....

Why are you all focusing on Fetts??? Have I missed something through this whole thread??

Can we have a quick breakdown of what has happened so far like someone did about half way in? LOL sorry....

Hello all by the way....

Hi mate welcome to the forums