Resealed figure discovery debate - G.Kurtz Palitoy VC Jawa.

[wbobafett]

I again checked all the pics I have gathered and searched again the web on FETT on ROTJ 45C!

So this will alll about BOBA FETT ROTJ 45C (Pal)

There is 482 :shock: unused cardbacks on the list that Joiner has posted!

I repost Billy Boys posts from 2003 again!
http://forum.rebelscum.com/t809708/

[Billy_Boy]....

Over a decade ago I truly 'struggled' to find the 'almost fabled' Palitoy RotJ 45 back of the 'Tri-logo' (light blue) Boba Fett...BUT now there are quite a few 'out there'!?!
There is a rumoured 'theory' that many of the remaining figures near the demise of Palitoy in the UK, were carded on to any surplus cardback going?! = The 'Tri-logo' Boba Fett variant certainly would 'fit the bill'! = I didn't originally see an example at retail until late 1984 / early '85?!? So how did it end up on the late 1982 / early '83 45 back?

= Palitoy had a Boba Fett on the Tri-logo card too!

Does anyone know where this 'glut' of European 45 backs actually/specifically came from???

Bill


...and:

[Billy_Boy]Sure!...Not ALL German 45 backs are easy to find!

Far from it in fact! BUT just recently a LOT of 'case fresh' examples have been appearing?!

= Can anyone explain to me why?

ALL the Palitoy RotJ 45 back 'Tri-logo' Boba Fetts that have only recently appeared seem to be in near 'perfect' condition too?!

= Am I the only collector to find this a little 'odd'? + Does anyone have a 'worn' carded example below 'C8'???

Bill

And that is the same question 10 years later:

Has anyone ever seen a lightblue "trilogo" Fett on a worn ROTJ 45C or 65 back??

I haven't!

What I have found:


1. IRONED FETTS

I still doubt these are connected to the same ones we call Toni's now. These are really sloppy...with no sense for where the bubble belongs...etc!!

What is interesting about those:
A. They probably come from the same batch of loose unused cardbacks!
B. The ironed stuff lacks the potential to hold for ever. A lot of have been falling part!
C. MOST important to me is the fact that also lightblue, so called Trilogo Fetts were used for those!!!

What you can see here is one lifted example (to the right) with clear iron marks and the triangular tab between the stem. I also found two loose cardbacks (RS limelight, Ebay). These are 100% ironed examples. One even has the triangular iron mark present below. Both have the blister sealed waaaay to high (compare to the MOC) and both seem to have lifted easily!

Again: Imo these are not from the same creator of the TT MOCs!


2. LEGIT CARDBACKS

It was hard to find some more loose cardbacks but I have found two! These do both NOT MATCH A SINGLE AFA 90 (= TT MOC). They both only have one sealed brother I have found. And this one has a footer and a waffle pattern!

As you can see on the MOC example the thickness of the seal as well as the position is a match! The Moc is Plaitoy ROTJ 45C unpunched. The part of the blister which has flat contact to the cardback is not sealed fully. It is only sealed were the waffle pattern appears and that is a telltale how the "form" must have looked that heatsealed those in factory.

What also can be seen is the lack of a seal in the middle lower bottom. If we look at the carded example, we can conclude that the footer maybe was a tiny bit to thick and at the very lower bottom prevented a correct seal.

But please decide yourself....all three are a total match IMO.



3. QUESTIONABLE CARDBACKS

On all those other casfresh crads I have found not ONE USED LOOSE CADBACK OR A MOC WITH CREASES, PRICESTICKER etc!

Have a look, there is three types:
(please do not take too much attention to the 3-D shape of the bubble...these are mostly photoshopped to compare the card and position of the blister...all in one and the same level...so everything that is 3-d is off...mostly...LOL)


FIRST TYPE: No Stem Blister. All aligned to the white border on the right. With Aligned I mean the inner border of the blister! See the vertical red line!

SECOND TYPE: Double Stem Blister. All aligned to the white border on the right. With Aligned I mean the outer border of the blister! See the vertical red line!

THIRD TYPE: Double Stem Blister. All aligned to the white border on the left. With Aligned I mean the outer border of the blister! See the vertical red line!

On the COOs of those: We have mostly "Trilogo" no coo figures on that (like on the ironed ones!!!). We also have small HK, large HK and Taiwan marked Fetts! Is this normal?? I dont know......


Again, all of those cards above are:
A. Minty Mint
B. Punched but never saw a shop (price sticker). Even thou these cards DO exist UNPUNCHED....see the wffle pattern one!
C. Contain a figure that should have appeared way later (Trilogo Fett) and also match the figure examples that were found on the ironed ones!
D. NOT ONE USED LOOSE OR MOC FROM THOSE IS KNOWN!


Anyone else?? I also find it disturbing that there seemed to be always the use of a "refernece line"

Please dig out your loose cardbacks! I really would love to see a ripped and used double stem....

Wolff

PS: Please excuse my spelling

 

[lee gray]

The very first Fett i got from Toni had a huge corner crease in the card, although was the regular version, after that i stated what condition i wanted just to make sure it never happened again.
What i have noticed over time, originally on tbe website it stated c9.5 then it dropped to c9+ then c9 and now its c8.5 so its been gradually dropping like he is down to his lesser condition stock now.

 

[Palifan]

Does anyone know this ebay member as they might be able to help out in some way?

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Vintage-Kenner-Palitoy-Star-Wars-Figure-FX-7-Medical-Droid-/350966551921?pt=UK_Collectables_SciFi_fantasyCollectables_EH&hash=item51b73c9571

Ian

 

[wbobafett]

Additional stuff on the Palitoy Fetts:

1. Alex has posted another legit example (cardback) over on TIG:

http://www.imperialgunneryforum.com/t6544p240-the-general-mills-45-back-palitoy-non-factory-sealed-discussion

This is again the one with the very small seal area, the waffle pattern one!


2. Another one posted on LG by Spearhead24 (contained a "normal" Fett):

http://www.lichtgeschwindigkeit.de/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=9983&start=300

This one is MOSt interesting, because it finally has a double stem blisters and shows us that the third type (double stem, aligned to the left white border) seems to be a possible legit variant. At least some of those could be legit!

I JUST REALIZED: THIS ONE ALSO SEEM TO HAVE THE CRESCENT ON TOP! MAYBE THIS IS REALLY THE KEY ON THE DOUBLE STEMS!?!?!?

DOES ANYONE HAVE A PAL 45C ROTJ BOBA FETT WITH CRESCENT ON DOUBLE STEM???


3. Most interesting I find this finding (pmed by Santrooper-5 on LG)

This is a Palitoy Fett 65 back! You can clearly see that a "tool" for a double stem blister was used! That's why the blister is positioned pretty high.....if you imagine the stems below it would be aligned to the bottom line of the cardback. You can also see that the blister seems to flush on the left.

Now what does that mean?? TT only had a tool made for double stem blisters?? The factory used the wrong tool for that blister?? Any ideas?? I find this most interesting, but I am not sure at all what to think of it!!!

It would also explain an earlier question in this thread why some 45 backs have an edged seal (possibly used tool from trilogo blisters) and some have a round seal to the corners (correct used tool).



4. and last but not least another ironed one:
http://i58.servimg.com/u/f58/17/02/62/79/dscn6713.jpg

posted by cantina_patron over on TIG (it also contained a Trilogo figure)
http://www.imperialgunneryforum.com/t6544p240-the-general-mills-45-back-palitoy-non-factory-sealed-discussion


Thanks for all the help guys!


Wolff

 

[lee gray]

Additional stuff on the Palitoy Fetts:

1. Alex has posted another legit example (cardback) over on TIG:

http://www.imperialgunneryforum.com/t6544p240-the-general-mills-45-back-palitoy-non-factory-sealed-discussion

This is again the one with the very small seal area, the waffle pattern one!


2. Another one posted on LG by Spearhead24 (contained a "normal" Fett):

http://www.lichtgeschwindigkeit.de/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=9983&start=300

This one is MOSt interesting, because it finally has a double stem blisters and shows us that the third type (double stem, aligned to the left white border) seems to be a possible legit variant. At least some of those could be legit!

I JUST REALIZED: THIS ONE ALSO SEEM TO HAVE THE CRESCENT ON TOP! MAYBE THIS IS REALLY THE KEY ON THE DOUBLE STEMS!?!?!?

DOES ANYONE HAVE A PAL 45C ROTJ BOBA FETT WITH CRESCENT ON DOUBLE STEM???


3. Most interesting I find this finding (pmed by Santrooper-5 on LG)

This is a Palitoy Fett 65 back! You can clearly see that a "tool" for a double stem blister was used! That's why the blister is positioned pretty high.....if you imagine the stems below it would be aligned to the bottom line of the cardback. You can also see that the blister seems to flush on the left.

Now what does that mean?? TT only had a tool made for double stem blisters?? The factory used the wrong tool for that blister?? Any ideas?? I find this most interesting, but I am not sure at all what to think of it!!!

It would also explain an earlier question in this thread why some 45 backs have an edged seal (possibly used tool from trilogo blisters) and some have a round seal to the corners (correct used tool).



4. and last but not least another ironed one:
http://i58.servimg.com/u/f58/17/02/62/79/dscn6713.jpg

posted by cantina_patron over on TIG (it also contained a Trilogo figure)
http://www.imperialgunneryforum.com/t6544p240-the-general-mills-45-back-palitoy-non-factory-sealed-discussion


Thanks for all the help guys!


Wolff

If you notice on the legit one with the name cut out, that on the back of the card there is no red blob next to chewbacca and all 10 or more i got direct from Toni whether it was light blue fett, regular fett, double stem or oversized rectangle bubble they all had the red blob, not saying that the red blob ones are all non legit but what i am saying i think it can be safe to assume Toni only ever had the fetts with the red blob next to chewbacca so all non red blob ones are defo legit.

As for the iron on double stem as seen on TIG

this is the first time i seen the picture like that and I have to admit I have had a couple like that where the inbetween section wasnt fully sealed and if u pushed the top parts which were not sealed, it the plastic there felt very flimsy as not as strong as the rest of the bubble and if you actually jolted the card so the figure moved, it would actually pushed down on the non sealed part and make a big dent as thats why i always thought these were more fragile.

Here is an afa 95 fett i use to own single grade, I dont think you can make it out but if you look inbetween the double stem there is a bubbling effect, when i got it i couldnt believe that it recieved a 95 because it looks like it was full of bubbles

 

[mr_palitoy]

I've just had my bobas out for the boys.

There are 2 types of ROTJ 45 back cards for Boba Fett:-

http://www.freewebs.com/mrpalitoy/rotj45ccardback.htm

The regular 45C has this on the back right hand corner:-

An the 45CG has an added HG afterwards:-

The cards I have are as follows:-

45CG cardback - lots of bubble rip on the front
45C cardback - hardly any imprint of the bubble on the front of the card (likely to be an early reseal that wasn't attcached very well)
45C cardback - name tag cut out, debenhams price sticker, double stem with circle/crescent at top and unglued middle at bottom
45C cardback - name tag cut out, double stem with circle/crescent at top and unglued middle at bottom

AFA 90 MOC 45C Light Blue unpainted knee with rectangular bubble

All the cards have a red dot next to the Chewbacca on the back of the card apart from the 45CG. They also all have a slight shifting
on the print of the STAR WARS logo on the front of the card apart from the 45CG.

So I think these particular print errors didn't make any impact on whether the cards made it to market or not.

The bubble placement is the same on the suspected Toni's as on the one's which were shop sold, so I don't think
we can read anything into bubble placements on the card/figure combo either.

If you have a 45CG then it's not one of Tonis.

Can provide photos of any or all cards if required.

cheers Jason

 

[mr_palitoy]

This is a scan from a mid 90's toy magazine scanned by David Tree showing what Toni was offering pre toytoni.com
I have blacked out phone numbers and addresses.

cheers Jason

 

[skywalker]

Bloody hell he had alot of stuff back then..

 

[wbobafett]

...
Can provide photos of any or all cards if required.

cheers Jason

Hey Jason, I really would like to see the four used cardbacks if possible!

Thank you!

Wolff

 

[KevinA]

I just took a look at my two 65 back Palitoy 4LOMs (none on the list but I thought I'd check anyways). One of them has an Italian import sticker on it, so I'd assume that one is safe. The other matches perfectly. One thing I noticed is they are both unsealed along the bottom where the double stem bubble would be. I'm not sure if this has been mentioned or is useful or not. I thought it was interesting though that Palitoy seemingly just used the same machine to seal all the bubbles. I thought they would've changed it depending on the bubble type.

Wolff, maybe you missed my post a couple of days before Christmas. I have a couple of 4-LOMs with the double stem seal.

 

[wbobafett]

yupp..missed it! :lol:

Good one! We can now be sure these are also real I guess!


Oh boy...what a puzzle! I just found another old and very interesting thread...not sure if it was mentioned before??

http://forum.rebelscum.com/t814644-4/#post14049330

Henrik_Berndt
I bought a bunch of trilogo Fetts from a dealer in the London area some five years ago, he said he'd bought the at a car boot sale near leicester i the 80´s. Apparently the glue had gone bad and the bouble had all separated, so they could not sell them normally. He also told me there were boxes of Snowtroopers too.
I also got a few cardbacks and boubles. It was clear, however, that the cardbacks had been used, even if the wear and tear from the bouble was minimal, so they could not or cannot be confused with unused examples.
If only I'd taken them all. He had more than 100 loose unplayed TriFetts


Billy_Boy
The 50 or so examples I purchased (and then proceeded to sell) were all 'saved' from destruction in 1985!

None of the unused cards I saw were ESB 45A/B cards... BUT there were quite a few RotJ 45Cs and 65s!

Considering the number of 'case fresh' Pal 45 B/C cards and Dutch/German Pal 45s that 'hit the market' at the same time... I'd imagine* hundreds of these sealed boxes were 'flogged off' cheaply at the sad demise of Palitoy! *= I recently had this 'assumption' partly confirmed from an original pair of buyers too!

I've been told (from reliable sources) that the Tri 'Snowtroopers' were found loose in VAST supply at carboot sales around Leicester! Some were complete in baggies, whilst a few examples had strange MOULDED 'grey limbs'? I doubt these were ever true 'protos', BUT were probably just 'tests' of some form in the Palitoy factory!

Hundreds of Tri PotF items were exported for sale on mainland Europe and the Tri-logo 4-Packs and 64 figure boxes were sold through various warehouses in the UK!

I can also vividly recall seeing dozens of Palitoy 45C Boba Fetts (mostly Tri 'light blue' versions) for sale at only 49-69 pence each! I'd seen the odd example of this variant on imported Meccano RotJ and Tri-logo cards, BUT I hadn't spotted that many for sale at retail on this particular cardback before?

The same goes for some other 'Tri Variants'... like the Pal 65** 'dark brown booted' Luke Bespin, the Pal 45 'pale faced' Han Hoth and the Pal 45 'pale faced' AT-AT Commander figures etc???

Items just started to appear 'from out of the woodwork' that simply hadn't been seen by collectors that often before? The sheer numbers of Tri Boba Fetts were dazzling!!! = I just wish I'd bought more of them to keep at that time too!

It certainly was a great time to buy masses of the toys at 'bargain' prices!!!

Bill

 

[mr_palitoy]

Done some daytime analysis and pictures on my bobas.
2 new things I can see in daylight.

1)price sticker residue on the 45CG
2)iron marks at the top of the card on my suspected opened Toni!

top left - 45CG cardback - lots of bubble rip on the front, price sticker residue
top right - 45C cardback - hardly any imprint of the bubble on the front of the card and iron marks at the top of the card (an early Toni that wasn't attached very well)
bottom left - 45C cardback - name tag cut out, debenhams price sticker, double stem with circle/crescent at top and unglued middle at bottom
bottom right - 45C cardback - name tag cut out, double stem with circle/crescent at top and unglued middle at bottom

And this is a picture of my AFA 90 from ESB/ROTJ AFA 90 Palitoy MOC focus

cheers Jason

 

[mr_palitoy]

And guess who I bought the boba fett card with iron marks on it from in 2005? Yes, marksing, aka Toni!

I bid on 4 cardbacks:-

You Won eBay Item: PALITOY ESB 45 BACK BOSSK CARDBACK (6007970286)
You Won eBay Item: PALITOY ROTJ 45 BACK LUKE BESPIN CARDBACK (6007968883)
You Won eBay Item: PALITOY ROTJ 65 BACK DARTH VADER CARDBACK (6007967337)
eBay Outbid Notice: PALITOY ROTJ 45 BACK BOBA FETT CARDBACK (6007966963)

Then when I'm paying for the 3 I won, I get this:-

"?
hi i have another fett card in similar shape are you interested at your bid if so i can send pic toni"

I then pay for the additional boba fett card as well with a cheque for all 4 (Toni doesnt like taking paypal in 2005)

So, there's proof he's selling ironed cards which the bubbles fell off!

cheers Jason

 

[mr_palitoy]

And the other 3 cards listed above also have iron marks on them and minimal bubble imprint!



Jason

 

[mr_palitoy]

Have sent another email to Toni asking him to explain the used cardbacks with iron marks on them.

cheers Jason

 

[mr_palitoy]

The 65 Back Vader is worrying as it isnt on jj's list. But there are 29 graded 65 back Palitoy Darth Vaders on the AFA population report, so I would put this card on this list too in light
of my Darth Vader cardback with iron marks purchased directly from Toni in 2005.



Jason

 

[Caswellbot]

Great work Jason and a definite link to Toni on the cardbacks.

 

[jimbody1]

So is there an up to date list of what may not be genuine now?

 

[wbobafett]

Thanks Jason again for the effort!


Jason, I am still not sure if the ironed once really came from Toni. Wouldn't it make more sense that he had the loose cardbacks for sale becaues he could very well use the minty figures inside the ironed ones (that he propably got cheap)??

Summarize:

A. We have four bubble styles on those 45C ROTJ cardbacks:
- non stem
- non stem waffle pattern (with footer)
- double stem
- single stem (just one popped up on ebay)

These are the carded ones existing. But not all of those do exist as loose cardbacks. What do we have now:

- The waffle pattern ones with footer seem to be the 45CG ones. We have now gathered one MOC and 4 loose cardbacks: CONFIRMED LEGIT

- The double stem ones are partially legit. All 4 loose cards have the crescent! So please check your double stem Tonis for that!
DOUBLE STEM WITH CRESCENT CONFIRMED LEGIT!

All others, single stem and non stem blisters on 45C (only waffle on 45CG is legit) could be fake!

Please dig out more used cardbacks!!

 

[mr_palitoy]

Thanks Jason again for the effort!


Jason, I am still not sure if the ironed once really came from Toni. Wouldn't it make more sense that he had the loose cardbacks for sale becaues he could very well use the minty figures inside the ironed ones (that he propably got cheap)??

Summarize:

A. We have four bubble styles on those 45C ROTJ cardbacks:
- non stem
- non stem waffle pattern (with footer)
- double stem
- single stem (just one popped up on ebay)

These are the carded ones existing. But not all of those do exist as loose cardbacks. What do we have now:

- The waffle pattern ones with footer seem to be the 45CG ones. We have now gathered one MOC and 4 loose cardbacks: CONFIRMED LEGIT

- The double stem ones are partially legit. All 4 loose cards have the crescent! So please check your double stem Tonis for that!
DOUBLE STEM WITH CRESCENT CONFIRMED LEGIT!

All others, single stem and non stem blisters on 45C (only waffle on 45CG is legit) could be fake!

Please dig out more used cardbacks!!

Yes, they did come from Toni. The cardbacks he sold me with iron marks on them are the ones on jj's list that were originally
unused cardbacks. (Darth Vader is missing from the list but has 29 AFA graded examples so likely to be Toni's too).

I only bid on some of his auctions, there were many more in all likelihood.

I also missed out on:-

eBay Outbid Notice: PALITOY ROTJ 45 BACK LUKE SKYWALKER CARDBACK (6007969261)


I asked him about this lot:-

10 VINTAGE PALITOY CARDBACKS FETT,HAN,LUKE+7 (260123005997)

Me:- Yes I know that. Which indvidual cards are 45 and which are 65? cheers Jason
Toni:- vader/c3po/hoth trooper 65 the rest 45 ta toni

Again, all the cards he had unused backing cards for.

I have full emails with all this in it.

He was selling on the cards for his early ironing efforts where all the bubbles fell off!

cheers Jason