Resealed figure discovery debate - G.Kurtz Palitoy VC Jawa.

[mr_palitoy]

Used german cardbacks (am one short of a full set). Most are off center to the right of the coloured bubble area. A couple are off center to the left and a couple are centered over the bubble.

German Toni MOC double stem 2-1b. So many tells now. Bubble is centered over the coloured bubble area. Missing circle at top of bubble. Smooth seal instead of thin lined waffled seal.
I also have a used 2-1b german cardback with the remains of the double stem bubble still attached, and it is wider than the double stem bubble that Toni uses and is centered to the right
of the coloured bubble area.

German Toni MOC single stem 2-1b. Bubble is centered over the coloured bubble area. Smooth seal instead of thin lined waffled seal.

cheers Jason

 

[jedisearcher]

Has anyone who has requested a refund had a response from Toni?

I know he's not getting into discussions, but is it complete silence/brief acknowledgement/something else?

Ta

 

[mr_palitoy]

Further german card analysis requested by Wolllf. Bubble width in millimetres followed by distance from left card edge to center point of bubble.

used cardbacks all without english text on the back unless stated

2-1b double stem 64mm 35mm (no thin waffle pattern on remaining bubble and price sticker residue, so maybe not all german cards have the thin line waffle pattern)
r2d2 sensorscope double stem 62mm 35mm
at at commander 62mm 36mm
at at driver double stem 56mm 35mm
bespin security guard black double stem 64mm 37mm
boba fett double stem white circle at top 58mm 35mm
bossk double stem 68mm 36mm
c3p0 removable limbs double stem white circle at top 62mm 37mm
chewbacca 58mm 31mm
cloud car pilot double stem 64mm 36mm
darth vader 60mm 35mm
dengar with english text on the back 82mm 46mm (had some stupidly massive bubble attached to it, and has clear iron prints on it. looks like an early Toni. we have the 11 unused dengar cardbacks down as all clipper currently, i'd at least put a 50/50 split on those in light of this card)
fx7 double stem 64mm 36mm
greed double stem 66mm 37mm
hammerhead 64mm 36mm
han solo double stem 58mm 35mm
han solo be spin double stem white circle at top 64mm 36mm
hans solo both double stem 68mm 34mm
ig88 58mm 33mm
imperial commander double stem 58mm 35mm
imperial stormtrooper double stem hoth 64mm 36mm
imperial tie fighter pilot double stem 68mm 34mm (no thin waffle pattern on remaining bubble and price sticker residue, so maybe not all german cards have the thin line waffle pattern)
land calrissian double stem 62mm 36mm
leia organa both double stem 60mm 35mm
leia organa bespin gown double stem 62mm 35mm
luke double stem 62mm 36mm
luke be spin double stem 64mm 35mm
luke both double stem 64mm 36mm
luke x-wing single stem 50mm 35mm (clear signs that the bubble was ironed on here too, though that card/figure combo isn't on jj's list)
power droid double stem 70mm 35mm
r5d4 double stem 58mm 34mm
rebel commander double stem 54mm 36mm
rebel soldier double stem 64mm 36mm
snaggletooth 60mm 37mm
star destroyer commander white circle at top 58mm 38mm
stormtrooper double stem 64mm 35mm
ugnaught 60mm 38mm
walrusman double stem 66mm 35mm
yoda double stem 60mm 35mm

TOCs (toni on card with english text on the back)
2-1b double stem 58mm 33mm
2-1b single stem 62mm 34mm


Dengar with iron prints:-

Check out that bubble size. 2 iron prints visible. One to the right of Dengars head, the other over the right hand side of the ESB logo.



cheers Jason

 

[panastur]

Great news that the crescents are good

Any bubbles out there with the dimples and crescents?

It's still early days but as time goes by less and less of Toni's ESB stock is looking fake. There's been much less analysis done on the ROTJ bubbles, but so far only the iron seals are definitely fake and they predate Toni....

Hi Spoons,

I sincerely believe that a lot has been said on "Single Stem" Bubble. At least enough to discard "repro" ones...

And respect the ROTJ bubbles, i posted a question that maybe deserve some attention...

Don't know if it's the right place but...

Respect the C3PO RL on Jedi 65bk sold by Toni, ¿Did anybody noticed that the no-stem bubble used on this figure is way too thick and rigid??? I just compared TT C3PO and a loose cardback (seal present) with the same kind of bubble and the thickness of TT bubble is twice the thickness of the genuine one...

¿Did these TT bubble were made thicker to avoid consenquence of heat in the sealing process???

JC :shock:

 

[mr_palitoy]

Great news that the crescents are good

Any bubbles out there with the dimples and crescents?

It's still early days but as time goes by less and less of Toni's ESB stock is looking fake. There's been much less analysis done on the ROTJ bubbles, but so far only the iron seals are definitely fake and they predate Toni....

Hi Spoons,

I sincerely believe that a lot has been said on "Single Stem" Bubble. At least enough to discard "repro" ones...

And respect the ROTJ bubbles, i posted a question that maybe deserve some attention...

Don't know if it's the right place but...

Respect the C3PO RL on Jedi 65bk sold by Toni, ¿Did anybody noticed that the no-stem bubble used on this figure is way too thick and rigid??? I just compared TT C3PO and a loose cardback (seal present) with the same kind of bubble and the thickness of TT bubble is twice the thickness of the genuine one...

¿Did these TT bubble were made thicker to avoid consenquence of heat in the sealing process???

JC :shock:

I think it's more likely that Toni looked at the amount of unused cardbacks he had for each figure, and the different types of bubble he had
and made some decisions about which type of bubbles to use with which cards. If he used them all intermingled it would have looked odd
compared to the genuine MOCs and he would have been spotted much much earlier.

cheers Jason

 

[JuniorChubb]

Before the list surfaced I had some concern about these 3 MOC's but now it's just the Hammerhead, I can see the bubble position from the back implying there was pressure used, although it's not as visable as the other 2 MOC's. also seen a GM PD in hand yesterday which looks the same as my Hammerhead from the back.

These pics aren't great but if any one wants something else just ask
http://s19.photobucket.com/user/scotthughes1/library/Pics

Can see the pics now.

Hmm, I can see that Palitoy ROTJ Walrusman is not on JJ's list. I have one, and assumed it was on the list. But the list is inaccurate and it is a figure/card combo
that has been on sale on toytoni.com multiple times, and there are at least 10 AFA graded and it's one you can pick up minty mint quite easily.

So I would put that in question too.

Jason

Also Jason I think Junior Chubb has a Palitoy 65 Back Walrusman he brought from me? I in turn brought from auction? Perhaps he could help shed some light on that?

I was worried about my ROTJ Palitoy Wally from when this thread started. After FF I was more confident in its authenticity as I had a better idea of what to look for (loosely). I was confident with the bubble, the figure has a turned head which I guess any fraudster would have straightened out to help cover their tracks. Then after 'The List' appeared I took a big sigh of relief (from a totally self centered view point :wink: ).

The card is also just far enough away from minty mint and a slight ding in the bubble, enough to convince me that this has not lead its whole life in the hands of a collector.

I will get some pics taken and post them up...

 

[søren]

Wbobafett great spotted with the cardbacks .

I have ane palitoy 45 back ESB snowtrooper cardback with danish price sticker from the 1980's that has
the "crecents" like the german cards you have found . So it seems like the where made on the same machine .

Also had a look at the other palitoy cards i have . I have a few of the same cards . And some of them has two kinds of bubles . Dobble stem and round .

I'm away from my camera . So i can't take pictures right now .

I also found this page . There are two german cards with the Iron tip in the butten ... look at the bubels , they have been put on off center

http://starwarscardbacks.tumblr.com/page/2

 

[lee gray]

Although totally unrelevant to this but the talk of little indent circle marks in the bubble, i have had a couple of trilogo imperial dignitarys with the oversize bubble that have had a small circle indent but not on the side but directly in the middle, what causes that

 

[jimbody1]

It may well have been a setting hole for the heat sealing tool, ive had a couple of kenners with circular indents in the seals obviously where there's been a setting pin protruding from the tool.
If you look at the pictures above you can see that even though the figures and bubbles are the same the tools are different.

 

[jedisearcher]

I'm confused between the crescents and the indents. What are we calling the round circle gap in the seal on the top edge of the bubble? And what are the indents or are they both the same and we're just calling them something different?



Anyway, I've been at me measuring

All bought from TT direct:

GM Han Bespin - single stem, no english text, bubble has 2x dimples on top edge - bubble 62mm, gap from edge 34mm

GM Ben - single stem, no english text - bubble 62mm, gap from edge 34mm

GM Han Original - double stem, english text, bubble has crescent indents right hand side in middle - bubble 58mm, gap from edge 33mm

GM Leia Bespin - double stem, english text, bubble has crescent indents right hand side in middle - bubble 58mm, gap from edge 32mm

GM PD - goofy big bubble, english text - bubble 72mm, gap from edge 42mm

I also have a Palitoy ESB 45 back TFP - don't know the source - bubble 58mm, gap from edge 33mm

 

[mr_palitoy]

So Toni's all seem to be shifted left to align over the coloured bubble. Toni's generally in the low thirties mm and regular cards middle to high thirties of mm.

Jason

 

[obiwannacollect]

I noticed sth on German Fett today...not sure if it helps in any way, but you can see that originals can have flaws. These ones seem both original German 45 backs:

The "form" that has pressed these double stem blisters to the cards had a crescent area were no "heat sealing" could happen.

I remember we once talked about those crecents. Anyone else has ever seen an opened card with that one??


Anyway: Pictures are from Wolfgang/Mr Palitoy and the other one was found in the net/ebay.

Wolff

I've just checked my GM AT AT driver that wasn't bought from TT, I've uploaded pics to my flickr account. There is definitely a flat spot at the top middle of the bubble and certainly from one picture looks like the bottom part of the crescent? Can I just say the work you guys are doing on this is nothing short of phenomenal.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/scubadivercisco/

Select the "set's" tab and they should be there.

 

[jedisearcher]

I noticed sth on German Fett today...not sure if it helps in any way, but you can see that originals can have flaws. These ones seem both original German 45 backs:

The "form" that has pressed these double stem blisters to the cards had a crescent area were no "heat sealing" could happen.

I remember we once talked about those crecents. Anyone else has ever seen an opened card with that one??


Anyway: Pictures are from Wolfgang/Mr Palitoy and the other one was found in the net/ebay.

Wolff

I've just checked my GM AT AT driver that wasn't bought from TT, I've uploaded pics to my flickr account. There is definitely a flat spot at the top middle of the bubble and certainly from one picture looks like the bottom part of the crescent? Can I just say the work you guys are doing on this is nothing short of phenomenal.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/scubadivercisco/

Select the "set's" tab and they should be there.

Yep, looks very similar.

 

[jedisearcher]

One last thing on bubbles, on the sealed TT cards, the gap from bottom edge of card to bottom of bubble is generally around 4-6mm for both double and single stems (not flush). I don't really have many other guarenteed safe ESB's but almost all of my Kenners ESB's and Palitoy 45a's have that gap as no more than 2mm (flush). Can anyone compare safe Palitoy 45's and see how flush they look? The one safe Palitoy 45 that I do have with the right waffle seal is also flush.

We've all seen damaged MOC's where there is a bubble overhang and there's bubble damage on the stems, or there's no overhang but they're too flush they've got dings. With the 4+mm gap there's no way those GM's are ever gonna get dinged (which is how you'd seal them if you never planned on them getting opened ...)

 

[wbobafett]

One last thing on bubbles, on the sealed TT cards, the gap from bottom edge of card to bottom of bubble is generally around 4-6mm for both double and single stems (not flush). I don't really have many other guarenteed safe ESB's but almost all of my Kenners ESB's and Palitoy 45a's have that gap as no more than 2mm (flush). Can anyone compare safe Palitoy 45's and see how flush they look? The one safe Palitoy 45 that I do have with the right waffle seal is also flush.

We've all seen damaged MOC's where there is a bubble overhang and there's bubble damage on the stems, or there's no overhang but they're too flush they've got dings. With the 4+mm gap there's no way those GM's are ever gonna get dinged (which is how you'd seal them if you never planned on them getting opened ...)

Another good observation! I checked all the loose cardsbacks an all are aligned or maximum 2mm I would say. So very close!

Some of the TT are also aligned and pretty close, but I have seen two (Leia Bespin, Boba Fett ROTJ 45back) which seem to be surely sealed afterwards.

Again no pattern here, but a hint: Large distances seem to be fake!

 

[mr_palitoy]

Have emailed Toni with bubble placement findings and asked him for an explanation.

cheers Jason

 

[mr_palitoy]

Josh makes a very good point about Toni's cards all being flat on this thread:-

http://forum.rebelscum.com/t1105341-2/#post19301443

This would indicate they were stored as unused cardbacks rather than assembled MOC, otherwise there would be some warping of cards over the years.

Great spot!

Jason

 

[jimbody1]

Josh makes a very good point about Toni's cards all being flat on this thread:-

http://forum.rebelscum.com/t1105341-2/#post19301443

This would indicate they were stored as unused cardbacks rather than assembled MOC, otherwise there would be some warping of cards over the years.

Great spot!

Jason

I wouldn't read to much into that ive had loads of cards over the years that have none if very little warping, also a lot of the cards ive had from Toni have had some slight warping where the bubbles been attached.

 

[lee gray]

I have had a few warped cards from him and even if u check the afa 90 fetts a can see a gap where they are not flat when resting on the back of the case, one was terribly warped

if you check this one its so warped it goes over the grading label
and the one underneath almost touches the label

 

[mr_palitoy]

I have had a few warped cards from him and even if u check the afa 90 fetts a can see a gap where they are not flat when resting on the back of the case, one was terribly warped

if you check this one its so warped it goes over the grading label
and the one underneath almost touches the label

Yeah, but those have been out in the wild for years, standing up, subjected to a variety of temperatures etc. When you get them directly from Toni, they are always dead flat.

cheers Jason