Resealed figure discovery debate - G.Kurtz Palitoy VC Jawa.

[gonk_from_rs]

I have a ESB palitoy Fett cardback from a childhood colletion , wich has the iron tip mark under the buble .

When you say "A childhood collection", do you mean your childhood collection, or someone else's? If it was someone else's, can you be certain that cardback was bought in the 80s and not the 90s (or later)? This seems important to me - if that triangular imprint at the bottom of the bubble is legit, well, we need to know that.

 

[TC-14]

One thing that I'm still amazed about after the amount of time that's gone into this thread is that nobody out there knows anyone who used to work at the Palitoy factory at that time. If the ex-general manager could be tracked down then it would probably help a whole lot with all of this.

Bear in mind that we were all kids back then and now are generally 30-40. Anybody old enough to work there during the 70s/80s will now be retired, and anybody old enough to be senior management will now likely be dead. It was well over 30 years ago.

I've got to agree with you, Edd... those working at the Palitoy factory (be it at the forefront of the workforce) will have just wanted to get through the working day... could you do this for an 8 hour shift (at 0:22 onwards) and actually be bothered where they ended up? Let alone what seal those cardbacks left the factory in....

[youtube]eFEX1jvSFDo[/youtube]

 

[Palifan]

I used to work in Primark for a Saturday job and can still remember plenty of useless info about that **** time I had! :lol:

 

[jasdev999]

Google search using "Palitoy coallville filetypeDF" got these 2 interviews of Palitoy employees by museum of childhood. I haven't read the whole transcript but may help.

http://www.museumofchildhood.org.uk/__documents/archive-catalogues/oral-history-pdfs/moc-btmoh-34-04-palitoy-group-interview-finalised-transcript.pdf

http://www.museumofchildhood.org.uk/__documents/archive-catalogues/oral-history-pdfs/moc-btmoh-09-04-alan-clarke-finalised-transcript.pdf

 

[Palifan]

Cheers for posting up those links. There's a lot to read there but after scanning through both of them I see no mention of Star Wars. There is however a section at the end of the first link about shutting the company down and it sounds like a lot of it has been literally buried. I'm sure some bits and bobs disappeared before they got sent off as one of the employees mentions having some things in his garage.

There pretty old now but it shows that there are some people around who would probably have some useful info.

Ian

 

[jasdev999]

Group interview is interesting with lot of names there, a lady called Val is machinist. Brian Turner is a designer. Interview is very recent September 2012. Really sad bit in the end where all the machinery was sold/ toys were buried in huge clay puts in Bedfordshire!!

No mention of Star Wars mainly because museum of childhood is interviewing the lot about Dolls Action man etc.

Surely one of these could hold an MOC in hand and look at the seal?

 

[jasdev999]

This is probably more useful with Star Wars mentioned, still reading it though.

http://www.museumofchildhood.org.uk/__documents/archive-catalogues/oral-history-pdfs/moc-btmoh-02-04-david-barnacle-finalised-transcript.pdf


Apparently most important bit is that a chap called Ken Moore was packaging manager.

 

[Palifan]

Great link and I'm thinking that's someone who's definitely worth contacting about the way they sealed things back then. i can't believe it was his son on the front of the Death Star box, amazing!

Ian

 

[ChrisG]

Hi Folks,

First, I want to commend you all for the great work done on this so far. I've been behind on this thread since day one and it's been challenging to keep up with, but I finally managed to string together some thoughts that I recently posted on RebelScum and wanted to share here as well. These are in no particular order and may or may not have been covered already:

* Black light is helpful for spotting some things, but as Ron Salvatore pointed out, it is best used as another tool for making comparisons with many pieces.

* Photographing what you see in black light is HARD. The camera can make all of the difference and some cameras can't do it well so a point you are trying to make with a photo might not ever do justice to what you see with your own eyes.

* Mattias had a great observation with the dot and he certainly knows printing, but as he pointed out, it's not an end-all answer and an anomaly like that can be useful when making such a comparison, but don't read too much into tiny printing anomalies. Yes, there was QC on this stuff, but not to the point where a dot here and there would cause a run to be scrapped. Keep in mind that these were hot-selling toys and would certainly be good enough to put on a store shelf.

* I've met several former Kenner QC people and purchased marked items from them. I think it's a bit misunderstood, but these QC checks were done on product received into the Cincinnati distribution center from the toy factories in China/Hong Kong/etc.. When there were "problem" figures and they had comments about the quality, they didn't pull items. They simply made comments that would go back so that the next batches could be improved. I never saw comments about printing, only about paint over-spray, correct mail-in offer decal placements, and interestingly I have an Emperor where they specifically say that the bubble seal isn't complete at the very bottom.

* I wouldn't put a lot of importance on tiny printing flaws. Yes, there would have been some quality control at the origin of the printing and I'm sure running changes would be made, but the dots and marks I've seen pointed out in these threads aren't enough to cause thousands of cards to be scrapped as unusable. Always keep in mind that these were $3 children's toys back in the day.

*The photo people have pointed out a few times, of guys looking at backer cards, was taken at the infamous sales at Celebration II. Those were proof cards that Steve Denny was selling with the help of Dan Flarida and the photo was taken in Dan's hotel room at the Omni. That (and the people in the photo) have nothing to do with this Toy Toni situation.

* As with their entire existence, we'll never have consensus on AFA, but count me in the camp of people who can't blame AFA for not detecting these seals. For upwards of 20 years these carded figures have looked like they looked and until this month, everyone felt the same way. It's not until you get a critical mass together and start looking for patterns. That's just not obvious on a figure by figure basis, but when you see a bunch at one time then some commonalities or differences can be noticed. That was the case for the McWilliams fake prototypes once everything was shared at once and it was clear to the guys at Dave Tree's Farthest From toy show last weekend who came together to compare figures and notes. Once you see things in a group and have reason to suspect something, suddenly it can make sense. Nobody wants to be the one out any money, but pushing potentially bogus items onto other collectors or trying to get restitution from AFA isn't the solution. As with the McWilliams pieces, as John noted, the collectors took it on the chin.

* While I commend guys like Wolff who have done incredible work with COO (country of origin) identification and patterns, there is simply no way the people at AFA could know that and use it to help detect fraud. Nobody knows that COO stuff to that level and even I think it can't be 100% conclusive because of how many molds, mold modifications, mold replacements, and mold sharing was done back in the day. But, as with anything, it can certainly help show patterns and leanings in thought. It will help with what's going on, but only as after-the-fact data points.

* I've mentioned this before, but the mysterious waffle pattern is the pattern used on the "horn" of an ultrasonic welding machine. That waffle is a textured grid pattern which helps to hold the plastic part in place while it's being attached. Certainly the method of bubble application factory by factory could vary, as is the case with all manufacturing. It's dependent upon the equipment, processes, and preferences of the people there. I see this in my daily job as an engineer.

-chris

 

[wbobafett]

I noticed sth on German Fett today...not sure if it helps in any way, but you can see that originals can have flaws. These ones seem both original German 45 backs:

The "form" that has pressed these double stem blisters to the cards had a crescent area were no "heat sealing" could happen.

I remember we once talked about those crecents. Anyone else has ever seen an opened card with that one??


Anyway: Pictures are from Wolfgang/Mr Palitoy and the other one was found in the net/ebay.

Wolff

 

[wbobafett]

And I found another one: Lobot!

I am pretty sure: When you have a double stem German card with that flaw: Be happy! It is 100% factory sealed. Funny...who had thought that factory flaws would be sth good for collectors nowadays!

I know that not all German cards with double stem have that flaw, it was probably only one workstation and only one "form"....doesnt mean the flawless ones are not original.

 

[søren]

I have a ESB palitoy Fett cardback from a childhood colletion , wich has the iron tip mark under the buble .

When you say "A childhood collection", do you mean your childhood collection, or someone else's? If it was someone else's, can you be certain that cardback was bought in the 80s and not the 90s (or later)? This seems important to me - if that triangular imprint at the bottom of the bubble is legit, well, we need to know that.

First , it is a rotj palitoy 45 back card with Nien numb offer . It is not from my own ch collection but from one I got here in Denmark . It has no price sticker on it . I got two large collections where it could have come from . I don't think that any of them where later then the 80s brought . One of the guys did live in the UK for one year in the 1980s

I just had a look at it again and it Looks like it also has the " iron on "marks on the side of the card ... not as bad as the troopers but it does have them . Also the buble Looks to have come off the card very easy and where put high on the card .

 

[wbobafett]

Three more found by Mike_Skywalker:

4-LOM

AT-AT Driver

Bespin Guard

 

[mr_palitoy]

Have checked my used german cardbacks. My boba fett, c3p0 removable limbs and han solo bespin all have the circle mark.

Any idea who's lobot that is? Just need that cardback for a full set of german esb cardbacks now!

cheers Jason

 

[Joe]

I definitely think you are on to something Wolff. If we can find a foolproof way to distinguish original seals using some kind of pattern like the one you have noticed it will make all the difference here.

 

[jedisearcher]

*The photo people have pointed out a few times, of guys looking at backer cards, was taken at the infamous sales at Celebration II. Those were proof cards that Steve Denny was selling with the help of Dan Flarida and the photo was taken in Dan's hotel room at the Omni. That (and the people in the photo) have nothing to do with this Toy Toni situation.

-chris

I posted that one. It was more for interest than accusing people of being involved in some way, to me it was really odd that a 3po proof/unused cardback from palitoy should be floating around in America at that time, they're pretty rare anywhere. That it got caught on camera was funny to me. It did indicate that some stash of them were floating around at that time.

I was really hoping for someone to have been caught in the background with a swag bag full of dollars, but that photo I haven't found yet

 

[spoons]

Great news that the crescents are good

Any bubbles out there with the dimples and crescents?

It's still early days but as time goes by less and less of Toni's ESB stock is looking fake. There's been much less analysis done on the ROTJ bubbles, but so far only the iron seals are definitely fake and they predate Toni....

 

[wbobafett]

I watched the Palitoy vid over and over again! Suddenly I had an idea today!

I seem to have found out sth. very interesting!


Mirco has an album full with scanned German 45 backs:
http://s487.photobucket.com/user/mike-skywalker/library/ESB%20German%2045%20Cardbacks?sort=6&page=1

I also used Wolfgangs site for reference:
http://www.raumhafen.de/cgi-bin/showp.pl?pic=/galerie/starwars/sw/esb_45back_d&titel=German%20ESB%20Figures

I concentrated on the ripped of "only" cardbacks. The used ones with creases, stickers and unpacked!

So time to watch closely at the pictures:

You will notice following from the sealing process:


1. There is PINS holding the cardbacks in place!

2. There is "forms" for the blisters that can probably swapped and changed (single stem, double stem, different sizes etc.)

If you combine these two very important facts you can conclude the following:
The bubble all have the same axis (middle/centre) compared to the cards! That means the middle of the bubble always is in the same place regarding the cardbacks!

Toni did different....he usually middled the bubbles (at least a bid...not really accurate) to the colored shaped form the figure is placed on.

What do I have to proof this:

Going through all cardbacks from Mirco and Wolfgang, ALL have the same in comon: The middle/centre axis is nearly in the exact in the same place!!!! (of course some are a tiny bit more left or right).
This axis can be spotted well regarding the ESB LOGO. If you check the farest point to the left from the logo were the black border ends (or starts coming from the left) you have your axis!
Of course the cardbacks are cut different....so its only a vague hint!!!

Here is some examples:

Again...I could proof this on ALL those cardbacks, no matter which character, bubble type etc!



havent much pictures to compare MOCs, but I can already tell you that some Bossks (remeber...there was 1000s on the published list) I have checked are FAR AWAY from this axis!

Coincidence?? I dont think so!!

What do guys think??


I really would like Mirco, Wolfgang and Panastur, or any other collector with some cardbacks checking theirs for some kind of pattern! Again in short:
The middle/centre axis of all bubbles has the same (nearly) distance to the boarder of the cardback. The fakes are different because they are more middled to the colored background were the figure is placed on!


I leave it to the guys now which have some originals in hand, but IMO this could be a key! *fingers crossed*

 

[Richard_H]

I think you've cracked it Wolf. A fantastic observation.

 

[sandtrooper-5]

45 Palitoy backcard

 

[mr_palitoy]

Used german cardbacks (am one short of a full set). Most are off center to the right of the coloured bubble area. A couple are off center to the left and a couple are centered over the bubble.

German Toni MOC double stem 2-1b. So many tells now. Bubble is centered over the coloured bubble area. Missing circle at top of bubble. Smooth seal instead of thin lined waffled seal.
I also have a used 2-1b german cardback with the remains of the double stem bubble still attached, and it is wider than the double stem bubble that Toni uses and is centered to the right
of the coloured bubble area.

German Toni MOC single stem 2-1b. Bubble is centered over the coloured bubble area. Smooth seal instead of thin lined waffled seal.

cheers Jason

 

[jedisearcher]

Has anyone who has requested a refund had a response from Toni?

I know he's not getting into discussions, but is it complete silence/brief acknowledgement/something else?

Ta

 

[mr_palitoy]

Further german card analysis requested by Wolllf. Bubble width in millimetres followed by distance from left card edge to center point of bubble.

used cardbacks all without english text on the back unless stated

2-1b double stem 64mm 35mm (no thin waffle pattern on remaining bubble and price sticker residue, so maybe not all german cards have the thin line waffle pattern)
r2d2 sensorscope double stem 62mm 35mm
at at commander 62mm 36mm
at at driver double stem 56mm 35mm
bespin security guard black double stem 64mm 37mm
boba fett double stem white circle at top 58mm 35mm
bossk double stem 68mm 36mm
c3p0 removable limbs double stem white circle at top 62mm 37mm
chewbacca 58mm 31mm
cloud car pilot double stem 64mm 36mm
darth vader 60mm 35mm
dengar with english text on the back 82mm 46mm (had some stupidly massive bubble attached to it, and has clear iron prints on it. looks like an early Toni. we have the 11 unused dengar cardbacks down as all clipper currently, i'd at least put a 50/50 split on those in light of this card)
fx7 double stem 64mm 36mm
greed double stem 66mm 37mm
hammerhead 64mm 36mm
han solo double stem 58mm 35mm
han solo be spin double stem white circle at top 64mm 36mm
hans solo both double stem 68mm 34mm
ig88 58mm 33mm
imperial commander double stem 58mm 35mm
imperial stormtrooper double stem hoth 64mm 36mm
imperial tie fighter pilot double stem 68mm 34mm (no thin waffle pattern on remaining bubble and price sticker residue, so maybe not all german cards have the thin line waffle pattern)
land calrissian double stem 62mm 36mm
leia organa both double stem 60mm 35mm
leia organa bespin gown double stem 62mm 35mm
luke double stem 62mm 36mm
luke be spin double stem 64mm 35mm
luke both double stem 64mm 36mm
luke x-wing single stem 50mm 35mm (clear signs that the bubble was ironed on here too, though that card/figure combo isn't on jj's list)
power droid double stem 70mm 35mm
r5d4 double stem 58mm 34mm
rebel commander double stem 54mm 36mm
rebel soldier double stem 64mm 36mm
snaggletooth 60mm 37mm
star destroyer commander white circle at top 58mm 38mm
stormtrooper double stem 64mm 35mm
ugnaught 60mm 38mm
walrusman double stem 66mm 35mm
yoda double stem 60mm 35mm

TOCs (toni on card with english text on the back)
2-1b double stem 58mm 33mm
2-1b single stem 62mm 34mm


Dengar with iron prints:-

Check out that bubble size. 2 iron prints visible. One to the right of Dengars head, the other over the right hand side of the ESB logo.



cheers Jason

 

[panastur]

Great news that the crescents are good

Any bubbles out there with the dimples and crescents?

It's still early days but as time goes by less and less of Toni's ESB stock is looking fake. There's been much less analysis done on the ROTJ bubbles, but so far only the iron seals are definitely fake and they predate Toni....

Hi Spoons,

I sincerely believe that a lot has been said on "Single Stem" Bubble. At least enough to discard "repro" ones...

And respect the ROTJ bubbles, i posted a question that maybe deserve some attention...

Don't know if it's the right place but...

Respect the C3PO RL on Jedi 65bk sold by Toni, ¿Did anybody noticed that the no-stem bubble used on this figure is way too thick and rigid??? I just compared TT C3PO and a loose cardback (seal present) with the same kind of bubble and the thickness of TT bubble is twice the thickness of the genuine one...

¿Did these TT bubble were made thicker to avoid consenquence of heat in the sealing process???

JC :shock:

 

[mr_palitoy]

Great news that the crescents are good

Any bubbles out there with the dimples and crescents?

It's still early days but as time goes by less and less of Toni's ESB stock is looking fake. There's been much less analysis done on the ROTJ bubbles, but so far only the iron seals are definitely fake and they predate Toni....

Hi Spoons,

I sincerely believe that a lot has been said on "Single Stem" Bubble. At least enough to discard "repro" ones...

And respect the ROTJ bubbles, i posted a question that maybe deserve some attention...

Don't know if it's the right place but...

Respect the C3PO RL on Jedi 65bk sold by Toni, ¿Did anybody noticed that the no-stem bubble used on this figure is way too thick and rigid??? I just compared TT C3PO and a loose cardback (seal present) with the same kind of bubble and the thickness of TT bubble is twice the thickness of the genuine one...

¿Did these TT bubble were made thicker to avoid consenquence of heat in the sealing process???

JC :shock:

I think it's more likely that Toni looked at the amount of unused cardbacks he had for each figure, and the different types of bubble he had
and made some decisions about which type of bubbles to use with which cards. If he used them all intermingled it would have looked odd
compared to the genuine MOCs and he would have been spotted much much earlier.

cheers Jason

 

[JuniorChubb]

Before the list surfaced I had some concern about these 3 MOC's but now it's just the Hammerhead, I can see the bubble position from the back implying there was pressure used, although it's not as visable as the other 2 MOC's. also seen a GM PD in hand yesterday which looks the same as my Hammerhead from the back.

These pics aren't great but if any one wants something else just ask
http://s19.photobucket.com/user/scotthughes1/library/Pics

Can see the pics now.

Hmm, I can see that Palitoy ROTJ Walrusman is not on JJ's list. I have one, and assumed it was on the list. But the list is inaccurate and it is a figure/card combo
that has been on sale on toytoni.com multiple times, and there are at least 10 AFA graded and it's one you can pick up minty mint quite easily.

So I would put that in question too.

Jason

Also Jason I think Junior Chubb has a Palitoy 65 Back Walrusman he brought from me? I in turn brought from auction? Perhaps he could help shed some light on that?

I was worried about my ROTJ Palitoy Wally from when this thread started. After FF I was more confident in its authenticity as I had a better idea of what to look for (loosely). I was confident with the bubble, the figure has a turned head which I guess any fraudster would have straightened out to help cover their tracks. Then after 'The List' appeared I took a big sigh of relief (from a totally self centered view point :wink: ).

The card is also just far enough away from minty mint and a slight ding in the bubble, enough to convince me that this has not lead its whole life in the hands of a collector.

I will get some pics taken and post them up...

 

[søren]

Wbobafett great spotted with the cardbacks .

I have ane palitoy 45 back ESB snowtrooper cardback with danish price sticker from the 1980's that has
the "crecents" like the german cards you have found . So it seems like the where made on the same machine .

Also had a look at the other palitoy cards i have . I have a few of the same cards . And some of them has two kinds of bubles . Dobble stem and round .

I'm away from my camera . So i can't take pictures right now .

I also found this page . There are two german cards with the Iron tip in the butten ... look at the bubels , they have been put on off center

http://starwarscardbacks.tumblr.com/page/2

 

[lee gray]

Although totally unrelevant to this but the talk of little indent circle marks in the bubble, i have had a couple of trilogo imperial dignitarys with the oversize bubble that have had a small circle indent but not on the side but directly in the middle, what causes that

 

[jimbody1]

It may well have been a setting hole for the heat sealing tool, ive had a couple of kenners with circular indents in the seals obviously where there's been a setting pin protruding from the tool.
If you look at the pictures above you can see that even though the figures and bubbles are the same the tools are different.

 

[jedisearcher]

I'm confused between the crescents and the indents. What are we calling the round circle gap in the seal on the top edge of the bubble? And what are the indents or are they both the same and we're just calling them something different?



Anyway, I've been at me measuring

All bought from TT direct:

GM Han Bespin - single stem, no english text, bubble has 2x dimples on top edge - bubble 62mm, gap from edge 34mm

GM Ben - single stem, no english text - bubble 62mm, gap from edge 34mm

GM Han Original - double stem, english text, bubble has crescent indents right hand side in middle - bubble 58mm, gap from edge 33mm

GM Leia Bespin - double stem, english text, bubble has crescent indents right hand side in middle - bubble 58mm, gap from edge 32mm

GM PD - goofy big bubble, english text - bubble 72mm, gap from edge 42mm

I also have a Palitoy ESB 45 back TFP - don't know the source - bubble 58mm, gap from edge 33mm