Resealed figure discovery debate - G.Kurtz Palitoy VC Jawa.

[gonk_from_rs]

I have a ESB palitoy Fett cardback from a childhood colletion , wich has the iron tip mark under the buble .

When you say "A childhood collection", do you mean your childhood collection, or someone else's? If it was someone else's, can you be certain that cardback was bought in the 80s and not the 90s (or later)? This seems important to me - if that triangular imprint at the bottom of the bubble is legit, well, we need to know that.

 

[TC-14]

One thing that I'm still amazed about after the amount of time that's gone into this thread is that nobody out there knows anyone who used to work at the Palitoy factory at that time. If the ex-general manager could be tracked down then it would probably help a whole lot with all of this.

Bear in mind that we were all kids back then and now are generally 30-40. Anybody old enough to work there during the 70s/80s will now be retired, and anybody old enough to be senior management will now likely be dead. It was well over 30 years ago.

I've got to agree with you, Edd... those working at the Palitoy factory (be it at the forefront of the workforce) will have just wanted to get through the working day... could you do this for an 8 hour shift (at 0:22 onwards) and actually be bothered where they ended up? Let alone what seal those cardbacks left the factory in....

[youtube]eFEX1jvSFDo[/youtube]

 

[Palifan]

I used to work in Primark for a Saturday job and can still remember plenty of useless info about that **** time I had! :lol:

 

[jasdev999]

Google search using "Palitoy coallville filetypeDF" got these 2 interviews of Palitoy employees by museum of childhood. I haven't read the whole transcript but may help.

http://www.museumofchildhood.org.uk/__documents/archive-catalogues/oral-history-pdfs/moc-btmoh-34-04-palitoy-group-interview-finalised-transcript.pdf

http://www.museumofchildhood.org.uk/__documents/archive-catalogues/oral-history-pdfs/moc-btmoh-09-04-alan-clarke-finalised-transcript.pdf

 

[Palifan]

Cheers for posting up those links. There's a lot to read there but after scanning through both of them I see no mention of Star Wars. There is however a section at the end of the first link about shutting the company down and it sounds like a lot of it has been literally buried. I'm sure some bits and bobs disappeared before they got sent off as one of the employees mentions having some things in his garage.

There pretty old now but it shows that there are some people around who would probably have some useful info.

Ian

 

[jasdev999]

Group interview is interesting with lot of names there, a lady called Val is machinist. Brian Turner is a designer. Interview is very recent September 2012. Really sad bit in the end where all the machinery was sold/ toys were buried in huge clay puts in Bedfordshire!!

No mention of Star Wars mainly because museum of childhood is interviewing the lot about Dolls Action man etc.

Surely one of these could hold an MOC in hand and look at the seal?

 

[jasdev999]

This is probably more useful with Star Wars mentioned, still reading it though.

http://www.museumofchildhood.org.uk/__documents/archive-catalogues/oral-history-pdfs/moc-btmoh-02-04-david-barnacle-finalised-transcript.pdf


Apparently most important bit is that a chap called Ken Moore was packaging manager.

 

[Palifan]

Great link and I'm thinking that's someone who's definitely worth contacting about the way they sealed things back then. i can't believe it was his son on the front of the Death Star box, amazing!

Ian

 

[ChrisG]

Hi Folks,

First, I want to commend you all for the great work done on this so far. I've been behind on this thread since day one and it's been challenging to keep up with, but I finally managed to string together some thoughts that I recently posted on RebelScum and wanted to share here as well. These are in no particular order and may or may not have been covered already:

* Black light is helpful for spotting some things, but as Ron Salvatore pointed out, it is best used as another tool for making comparisons with many pieces.

* Photographing what you see in black light is HARD. The camera can make all of the difference and some cameras can't do it well so a point you are trying to make with a photo might not ever do justice to what you see with your own eyes.

* Mattias had a great observation with the dot and he certainly knows printing, but as he pointed out, it's not an end-all answer and an anomaly like that can be useful when making such a comparison, but don't read too much into tiny printing anomalies. Yes, there was QC on this stuff, but not to the point where a dot here and there would cause a run to be scrapped. Keep in mind that these were hot-selling toys and would certainly be good enough to put on a store shelf.

* I've met several former Kenner QC people and purchased marked items from them. I think it's a bit misunderstood, but these QC checks were done on product received into the Cincinnati distribution center from the toy factories in China/Hong Kong/etc.. When there were "problem" figures and they had comments about the quality, they didn't pull items. They simply made comments that would go back so that the next batches could be improved. I never saw comments about printing, only about paint over-spray, correct mail-in offer decal placements, and interestingly I have an Emperor where they specifically say that the bubble seal isn't complete at the very bottom.

* I wouldn't put a lot of importance on tiny printing flaws. Yes, there would have been some quality control at the origin of the printing and I'm sure running changes would be made, but the dots and marks I've seen pointed out in these threads aren't enough to cause thousands of cards to be scrapped as unusable. Always keep in mind that these were $3 children's toys back in the day.

*The photo people have pointed out a few times, of guys looking at backer cards, was taken at the infamous sales at Celebration II. Those were proof cards that Steve Denny was selling with the help of Dan Flarida and the photo was taken in Dan's hotel room at the Omni. That (and the people in the photo) have nothing to do with this Toy Toni situation.

* As with their entire existence, we'll never have consensus on AFA, but count me in the camp of people who can't blame AFA for not detecting these seals. For upwards of 20 years these carded figures have looked like they looked and until this month, everyone felt the same way. It's not until you get a critical mass together and start looking for patterns. That's just not obvious on a figure by figure basis, but when you see a bunch at one time then some commonalities or differences can be noticed. That was the case for the McWilliams fake prototypes once everything was shared at once and it was clear to the guys at Dave Tree's Farthest From toy show last weekend who came together to compare figures and notes. Once you see things in a group and have reason to suspect something, suddenly it can make sense. Nobody wants to be the one out any money, but pushing potentially bogus items onto other collectors or trying to get restitution from AFA isn't the solution. As with the McWilliams pieces, as John noted, the collectors took it on the chin.

* While I commend guys like Wolff who have done incredible work with COO (country of origin) identification and patterns, there is simply no way the people at AFA could know that and use it to help detect fraud. Nobody knows that COO stuff to that level and even I think it can't be 100% conclusive because of how many molds, mold modifications, mold replacements, and mold sharing was done back in the day. But, as with anything, it can certainly help show patterns and leanings in thought. It will help with what's going on, but only as after-the-fact data points.

* I've mentioned this before, but the mysterious waffle pattern is the pattern used on the "horn" of an ultrasonic welding machine. That waffle is a textured grid pattern which helps to hold the plastic part in place while it's being attached. Certainly the method of bubble application factory by factory could vary, as is the case with all manufacturing. It's dependent upon the equipment, processes, and preferences of the people there. I see this in my daily job as an engineer.

-chris

 

[wbobafett]

I noticed sth on German Fett today...not sure if it helps in any way, but you can see that originals can have flaws. These ones seem both original German 45 backs:

The "form" that has pressed these double stem blisters to the cards had a crescent area were no "heat sealing" could happen.

I remember we once talked about those crecents. Anyone else has ever seen an opened card with that one??


Anyway: Pictures are from Wolfgang/Mr Palitoy and the other one was found in the net/ebay.

Wolff

 

[wbobafett]

And I found another one: Lobot!

I am pretty sure: When you have a double stem German card with that flaw: Be happy! It is 100% factory sealed. Funny...who had thought that factory flaws would be sth good for collectors nowadays!

I know that not all German cards with double stem have that flaw, it was probably only one workstation and only one "form"....doesnt mean the flawless ones are not original.

 

[søren]

I have a ESB palitoy Fett cardback from a childhood colletion , wich has the iron tip mark under the buble .

When you say "A childhood collection", do you mean your childhood collection, or someone else's? If it was someone else's, can you be certain that cardback was bought in the 80s and not the 90s (or later)? This seems important to me - if that triangular imprint at the bottom of the bubble is legit, well, we need to know that.

First , it is a rotj palitoy 45 back card with Nien numb offer . It is not from my own ch collection but from one I got here in Denmark . It has no price sticker on it . I got two large collections where it could have come from . I don't think that any of them where later then the 80s brought . One of the guys did live in the UK for one year in the 1980s

I just had a look at it again and it Looks like it also has the " iron on "marks on the side of the card ... not as bad as the troopers but it does have them . Also the buble Looks to have come off the card very easy and where put high on the card .

 

[wbobafett]

Three more found by Mike_Skywalker:

4-LOM

AT-AT Driver

Bespin Guard

 

[mr_palitoy]

Have checked my used german cardbacks. My boba fett, c3p0 removable limbs and han solo bespin all have the circle mark.

Any idea who's lobot that is? Just need that cardback for a full set of german esb cardbacks now!

cheers Jason

 

[Joe]

I definitely think you are on to something Wolff. If we can find a foolproof way to distinguish original seals using some kind of pattern like the one you have noticed it will make all the difference here.

 

[jedisearcher]

*The photo people have pointed out a few times, of guys looking at backer cards, was taken at the infamous sales at Celebration II. Those were proof cards that Steve Denny was selling with the help of Dan Flarida and the photo was taken in Dan's hotel room at the Omni. That (and the people in the photo) have nothing to do with this Toy Toni situation.

-chris

I posted that one. It was more for interest than accusing people of being involved in some way, to me it was really odd that a 3po proof/unused cardback from palitoy should be floating around in America at that time, they're pretty rare anywhere. That it got caught on camera was funny to me. It did indicate that some stash of them were floating around at that time.

I was really hoping for someone to have been caught in the background with a swag bag full of dollars, but that photo I haven't found yet

 

[spoons]

Great news that the crescents are good

Any bubbles out there with the dimples and crescents?

It's still early days but as time goes by less and less of Toni's ESB stock is looking fake. There's been much less analysis done on the ROTJ bubbles, but so far only the iron seals are definitely fake and they predate Toni....

 

[wbobafett]

I watched the Palitoy vid over and over again! Suddenly I had an idea today!

I seem to have found out sth. very interesting!


Mirco has an album full with scanned German 45 backs:
http://s487.photobucket.com/user/mike-skywalker/library/ESB%20German%2045%20Cardbacks?sort=6&page=1

I also used Wolfgangs site for reference:
http://www.raumhafen.de/cgi-bin/showp.pl?pic=/galerie/starwars/sw/esb_45back_d&titel=German%20ESB%20Figures

I concentrated on the ripped of "only" cardbacks. The used ones with creases, stickers and unpacked!

So time to watch closely at the pictures:

You will notice following from the sealing process:


1. There is PINS holding the cardbacks in place!

2. There is "forms" for the blisters that can probably swapped and changed (single stem, double stem, different sizes etc.)

If you combine these two very important facts you can conclude the following:
The bubble all have the same axis (middle/centre) compared to the cards! That means the middle of the bubble always is in the same place regarding the cardbacks!

Toni did different....he usually middled the bubbles (at least a bid...not really accurate) to the colored shaped form the figure is placed on.

What do I have to proof this:

Going through all cardbacks from Mirco and Wolfgang, ALL have the same in comon: The middle/centre axis is nearly in the exact in the same place!!!! (of course some are a tiny bit more left or right).
This axis can be spotted well regarding the ESB LOGO. If you check the farest point to the left from the logo were the black border ends (or starts coming from the left) you have your axis!
Of course the cardbacks are cut different....so its only a vague hint!!!

Here is some examples:

Again...I could proof this on ALL those cardbacks, no matter which character, bubble type etc!



havent much pictures to compare MOCs, but I can already tell you that some Bossks (remeber...there was 1000s on the published list) I have checked are FAR AWAY from this axis!

Coincidence?? I dont think so!!

What do guys think??


I really would like Mirco, Wolfgang and Panastur, or any other collector with some cardbacks checking theirs for some kind of pattern! Again in short:
The middle/centre axis of all bubbles has the same (nearly) distance to the boarder of the cardback. The fakes are different because they are more middled to the colored background were the figure is placed on!


I leave it to the guys now which have some originals in hand, but IMO this could be a key! *fingers crossed*

 

[Richard_H]

I think you've cracked it Wolf. A fantastic observation.

 

[sandtrooper-5]

45 Palitoy backcard