Resealed figure discovery debate - G.Kurtz Palitoy VC Jawa.

[sandtrooper-5]

Found this photos back again, look at the
stem, how big the distance is

 

[M4K3R1]

German store bought Luke, with odd bubble for the character and the dimple in the bubble.
Just my opinion, but anyone else starting to think that all this could be exactlly what its been known for all these years.
A "factory over stock find" with little to no quality control at all.
Factory was closing and everything and anything was assembled together any old way.

 

[itfciain]

I think Tom's comments are some of most rational I have seen throughout this whole thing. and I am not a huge fan of his. :wink:

As Liam would say, seconded

Great response from Tom and exactly what you want to hear rather than the daft reply back from AFA originally

 

[lee gray]

On Arthurs maybe list, it states 6 boxes of bubbles and blisters of which only 3 contain useful bubbles, thats not to say the other 3 boxes of bubbles are damaged but could have been small bubbles for yoda, jawas or ewoks that there were no backing cards to go with them so the bubbles were no good for the taller figures or even from another toyline ?

 

[Caswellbot]

I agree that it was good of Tom to come on and comment about the situation which adds to my suspicion that he is/ was one of the only aspects of AFA with real worth. That said, stating that these might likely be similar to Q grade items isnt good enough for me personally. Q grade items are all original but have been opened. (Correct me if Im wrong) These TT items in questions are not that and therefore shouldnt fit under that bracket either. I also worry about this in terms of what happens to the hundreds/ thousands that have already been graded? Could these be sent in again for a free reclassification or is the customer supposed to foot the bill?

It is a bit of a sad story that the "Action Figure Authority" arent able to step up to the mark. Through Tom's comments we can see that they are definitley ill equipped to identify such items which I suppose is of some use. The idea that Tom will look at his own 80-100 examples of GM and Palitoy carded figures in the new year at least shows an effort on his part but it seems incredibly unlikely to me that he is going to turn round and say "you know what, 60 of these might not be legit." That would undoubtedly damage his own personal credibility and certainly harm AFA which would be really counter productive.

Regardless of AFA's / Tom's involvement I still feel it is down to us collectors to continue to look out for anomolies in order to more conclusively form our own opinions.

 

[Mr-shifter]

Regardless of AFA's / Tom's involvement I still feel it is down to us collectors to continue to look out for anomolies in order to more conclusively form our own opinions.

That's why I think this place is great. The community looking after the community. We are the custodians of this hobby. Not the AFA.

 

[BlueDog]

Regardless of AFA's / Tom's involvement I still feel it is down to us collectors to continue to look out for anomolies in order to more conclusively form our own opinions.

That's why I think this place is great. The community looking after the community. We are the custodians of this hobby. Not the AFA.

Couldn't agree more.

I've pretty much lost track of all the threads on this but I do know if I read one more post that starts with "I don't have a horse in this race or dog in this fight" I'm going to vomit all over my 45 back Yoda! :twisted:

But what do I know I don't have a pickle in this sandwich!

 

[Dark Sith Lord]

Regardless of AFA's / Tom's involvement I still feel it is down to us collectors to continue to look out for anomolies in order to more conclusively form our own opinions.

That's why I think this place is great. The community looking after the community. We are the custodians of this hobby. Not the AFA.

Seconded! :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[kraftdermacht]

Found this photos back again, look at the
stem, how big the distance is
img

img

Typical for a GM bubble. I have several used cards with this pattern.

Wolfgang

 

[kraftdermacht]

Jason, Toni has GM ESB Rebel Commander and Bespin Security Guard White.
Like on the list the Dutch Hammerhead/Walrusman/Dengar were not separeted from the German ones I think they also counted the numbers together for the 2 above.
For Hammerhead/Walrusman/Dengar he has only Clipper no GM.

The
General Mills ROTJ
6 Imperial Tie Fighter Pilot
should be Palitoy ROTJ. Or?

Wolfgang

Ok, here is a new take on the list data, this time, it's just total numbers of unused cards.
On the list, german, clipper and Palitoy ESB are not identified well.
I have used the info from Tonis web site for sale list and rarity of minty mint MOCs to try and tie down the
list a bit better.

Please let me know of any amendments.

Clipper ESB

145 Rebel Commander
138 Bespin Security Guard White
69 Hammerhead
56 Walrusman
11 Dengar

General Mills ESB

563 Han Hoth
526 Stormtrooper
357 C3PO Removable Limbs
320 AT-AT Driver
318 Bespin Security Guard Black
276 IG88
268 21B
194 Han Solo
171 R2D2 Sensorscope
166 Leia Bespin
162 Han Bespin
138 Ben Kenobi
118 Power Droid
85 Yoda
70 AT-AT Commander
50 Leia Hoth
36 Rebel Soldier
26 FX-7
25 Princess Leia
11 R5D4

General Mills ROTJ

30 Cloud Car Pilot
6 Imperial Tie Fighter Pilot


Palitoy ESB

1000 Bossk
264 Imperial Tie Fighter Pilot
132 Chewbacca

Palitoy ROTJ

1234 C3PO Removable Limbs
1126 Imperial Hoth Trooper
885 Luke Skywalker
482 Boba Fett
467 Lobot
417 Death Star Droid
301 21B
143 Chewbacca
132 Luke Bespin
105 Luke Hoth
86 Lando Skiff Guard
81 Logray
60 Squid Head
47 Han Solo
39 AT-AT Driver
31 Gamorrean Guard
30 Leia Boussh
27 AT-AT Commander
12 Yoda
8 Cloud Car Pilot

cheers Jason

 

[kraftdermacht]

They made missing or newly needed bubbles in the 2000s. Quite clear.
Everybody can check: http://web.archive.org/web/*/www.toytoni.com

TT offering :

I know TT offered no GM Power Droid and GM FX7 in the early 2000s. Special size bubbles needed!

2003
esb yoda palitoy german issue factory punched c9+ £125 photo

2004 (kraftdermacht: ran out of small bubbles, or carded figures were sold)
esb yoda palitoy german issue factory punched c9+ £125 out of stock

2007 (kraftdermacht: Cool, suddenly snake variations, same with Ben white/grey)
esb yoda brown snake palitoy c8 £135 photo
esb yoda orange snake palitoy c8 £165 photo

Chewie with pictures blow.

Wolfgang

Addition to the repro bubble discussion. Above you see the TT IG88 I bought from Toni. I now checked my used GM cards again. I have a single stem and a dubble stem IG88 card. The single stem card had a "09" bubble! Can still clearly be seen. Toni's IG88 has no numbered bubble.

Wolfgang

 

[mr_palitoy]

So it looks like clipper/german for rebel commander and bsg white are a mixture of the two? I'll split them 50/50 for now?

Is the same true for ESB Chewbacca? I think maybe we should assume a 50/50 split between Palitoy and German?

Also, are there any Bossk German?

There are no known ROTJ Tie Fighter Pilot on 65 back for Palitoy, which made me think they must be German? Unless some of the ROTJ are trilogo? (dont really want to go there!)

Awaiting your reply!

cheers Jason

Jason, Toni has GM ESB Rebel Commander and Bespin Security Guard White.
Like on the list the Dutch Hammerhead/Walrusman/Dengar were not separeted from the German ones I think they also counted the numbers together for the 2 above.
For Hammerhead/Walrusman/Dengar he has only Clipper no GM.

The
General Mills ROTJ
6 Imperial Tie Fighter Pilot
should be Palitoy ROTJ. Or?

Wolfgang

Ok, here is a new take on the list data, this time, it's just total numbers of unused cards.
On the list, german, clipper and Palitoy ESB are not identified well.
I have used the info from Tonis web site for sale list and rarity of minty mint MOCs to try and tie down the
list a bit better.

Please let me know of any amendments.

Clipper ESB

145 Rebel Commander
138 Bespin Security Guard White
69 Hammerhead
56 Walrusman
11 Dengar

General Mills ESB

563 Han Hoth
526 Stormtrooper
357 C3PO Removable Limbs
320 AT-AT Driver
318 Bespin Security Guard Black
276 IG88
268 21B
194 Han Solo
171 R2D2 Sensorscope
166 Leia Bespin
162 Han Bespin
138 Ben Kenobi
118 Power Droid
85 Yoda
70 AT-AT Commander
50 Leia Hoth
36 Rebel Soldier
26 FX-7
25 Princess Leia
11 R5D4

General Mills ROTJ

30 Cloud Car Pilot
6 Imperial Tie Fighter Pilot


Palitoy ESB

1000 Bossk
264 Imperial Tie Fighter Pilot
132 Chewbacca

Palitoy ROTJ

1234 C3PO Removable Limbs
1126 Imperial Hoth Trooper
885 Luke Skywalker
482 Boba Fett
467 Lobot
417 Death Star Droid
301 21B
143 Chewbacca
132 Luke Bespin
105 Luke Hoth
86 Lando Skiff Guard
81 Logray
60 Squid Head
47 Han Solo
39 AT-AT Driver
31 Gamorrean Guard
30 Leia Boussh
27 AT-AT Commander
12 Yoda
8 Cloud Car Pilot

cheers Jason

 

[mr_palitoy]

[youtube]O6wpAH_Edp8[/youtube]

This was posted on my facebook group.

Jason

 

[mr_palitoy]

Toni update. My facebook member from Brighton is still negotiating an exchange of his TOCs for non TOCs and has sent me this email reply he
got from Toni:-

"Just to say Im a normal bloke Im not some Mr Big with a huge empire full of tens of thousands of Star Wars figures distributing them all over the world . I have never sold large numbers of any star wars figure and in some cases were talking from a single example to a handful and with other figures maybe 50 or 60 examples up to perhaps a few hundred examples max - thats it ! I dont have a massive stash of carded figures and any idea that thousands of my figures are circulating around the world is be totally wrong ."

cheers Jason

 

[spoons]

[youtube]O6wpAH_Edp8[/youtube]

This was posted on my facebook group.

Jason

Expected him to take a mallet to them at the end

 

[itfciain]

Toni update. My facebook member from Brighton is still negotiating an exchange of his TOCs for non TOCs and has sent me this email reply he
got from Toni:-

"Just to say Im a normal bloke Im not some Mr Big with a huge empire full of tens of thousands of Star Wars figures distributing them all over the world . I have never sold large numbers of any star wars figure and in some cases were talking from a single example to a handful and with other figures maybe 50 or 60 examples up to perhaps a few hundred examples max - thats it ! I dont have a massive stash of carded figures and any idea that thousands of my figures are circulating around the world is be totally wrong ."

cheers Jason

That is still not a denial that he did anything wrong - and the fact he is even talking about it with someone suggests that he has not 'lawyered up'

 

[jedisearcher]

Toni update. My facebook member from Brighton is still negotiating an exchange of his TOCs for non TOCs and has sent me this email reply he
got from Toni:-

"Just to say Im a normal bloke Im not some Mr Big with a huge empire full of tens of thousands of Star Wars figures distributing them all over the world . I have never sold large numbers of any star wars figure and in some cases were talking from a single example to a handful and with other figures maybe 50 or 60 examples up to perhaps a few hundred examples max - thats it ! I dont have a massive stash of carded figures and any idea that thousands of my figures are circulating around the world is be totally wrong ."

cheers Jason

Still clearly no idea of the impact of the damage he's done. Those quantities are still a huge proportion of the total populations. Just look at the AFA reports a few pages back, most clearly come from him, probably all for some GMs.

 

[Caswellbot]

And thats just the AFA population report not taking into account UKG's pop report and ungraded.

 

[gonk_from_rs]

An interesting read.
Here's my upside down Hoth Trooper.
No pin holes - but it does have an '03' bubble.

This card has always look off to me & I have no idea how it got through QC.

What's the story on this one? Is this believed to be a legitimate piece, or one of the "modern-sealed" ones? I ask, because it has the black smudge on it. If it turns out to be legitimate, then that would mean the black smudge idea is kaput.

 

[spoons]

This is apparently one from JJ's loft based on the dirt line down the middle.

Looks like the bubble has been ironed or oddly creased. At the moment 03 bubbles look to be good but they should have a waffle-esque seal

Not a TOC but an early attempt at sealing bubbles?

 

[tiefighterboy]

This is apparently one from JJ's loft based on the dirt line down the middle.

Looks like the bubble has been ironed or oddly creased. At the moment 03 bubbles look to be good but they should have a waffle-esque seal

Not a TOC but an early attempt at sealing bubbles?

I still do not understand why you would attempt to seal them and have it upside down.

 

[Dark Sith Lord]

It worries me that even though there has been a vast investigation on behalf of collectors on trying to determine which are these MOCs are suspect, and some success in narrowing the field, it is my concern that if this allegation is true, its 20+ year impact on the market will have had such an influence on MOC figures that we will never be 100% sure. Even with 'the list'.


I'd like to hear what people think would be the best way to move forward. I think all options are valid and should be explored.

Edit: Good stuff Jason- that list is depressing.

I agree with Grants comment above!

I think every avenue should be explored.

 

[lee gray]

This is apparently one from JJ's loft based on the dirt line down the middle.

Looks like the bubble has been ironed or oddly creased. At the moment 03 bubbles look to be good but they should have a waffle-esque seal

Not a TOC but an early attempt at sealing bubbles?

I still do not understand why you would attempt to seal them and have it upside down.

I always thought they had it upside down so the figure would fit more easily because the head is virtually the same shape so less chance of head making dent in bubble. As i stated before i defo purchased one of these from jim stevenson at westminster toy fair in the mid 90s, didnt know the bubble was upside down at the time but the crinkling around the bubble edges just looked ****.

 

[Caswellbot]

This is apparently one from JJ's loft based on the dirt line down the middle.

Looks like the bubble has been ironed or oddly creased. At the moment 03 bubbles look to be good but they should have a waffle-esque seal

Not a TOC but an early attempt at sealing bubbles?

I still do not understand why you would attempt to seal them and have it upside down.

Looking closely Todd, if the bubble was the right way up would it still fit the figure. It looks like the feet would rest on the stem ledge and may not allow enough room at the top for the head??

 

[gonk_from_rs]

What's the story on this one? Is this believed to be a legitimate piece, or one of the "modern-sealed" ones? I ask, because it has the black smudge on it. If it turns out to be legitimate, then that would mean the black smudge idea is kaput.

Okay, reading further, it sounds like ace was first claiming it was one of his (as in, I thought he was defending it as legitimate), but later he backs off and says he got it from arthur that way. So, in other words, he is not claiming it is legit.

I am trying to figure out if that little black smudge to the right of the rotj logo can be used to identify the batch (or "a" batch) of cardbacks used to create the modern-sealed 65-back hoth troopers. If I can find just ONE confirmed legitimate example of this cardback that has the smudge, I can stop wasting my time with this. So far, many of these 65-back hoth troopers are turning up with this smudge, and they are all either iron-ons (like this one might be), or just unconfirmable. So far, only one person I know about has come forward with a definitely legitimate 65-back hoth trooper, and it does not have the smudge.

 

[escapist]

Toni update. My facebook member from Brighton is still negotiating an exchange of his TOCs for non TOCs and has sent me this email reply he
got from Toni:-

"Just to say Im a normal bloke Im not some Mr Big with a huge empire full of tens of thousands of Star Wars figures distributing them all over the world . I have never sold large numbers of any star wars figure and in some cases were talking from a single example to a handful and with other figures maybe 50 or 60 examples up to perhaps a few hundred examples max - thats it ! I dont have a massive stash of carded figures and any idea that thousands of my figures are circulating around the world is be totally wrong ."

cheers Jason

Right. So 'a few hundred' is not a 'large number' of any Star Wars figure???

 

[gonk_from_rs]

What's the story on this one? Is this believed to be a legitimate piece, or one of the "modern-sealed" ones? I ask, because it has the black smudge on it. If it turns out to be legitimate, then that would mean the black smudge idea is kaput.

Vernon - does that dust shadow in the middle of the card (the one between the "J" and "E" in the "jedi" logo) go under the bubble? Or is it on top? Or does it just stop at the bubble?

 

[Vernon]

What's the story on this one? Is this believed to be a legitimate piece, or one of the "modern-sealed" ones? I ask, because it has the black smudge on it. If it turns out to be legitimate, then that would mean the black smudge idea is kaput.

Vernon - does that dust shadow in the middle of the card (the one between the "J" and "E" in the "jedi" logo) go under the bubble? Or is it on top? Or does it just stop at the bubble?

Hi,

It used to go over the bubble until a few days ago when I wiped it off with a cotton bud & water (it doesn't come off the card but was very easy to remove from the bubble).
I always assumed it was a print error so never really studied it.

 

[Vernon]

This is apparently one from JJ's loft based on the dirt line down the middle.

Looks like the bubble has been ironed or oddly creased. At the moment 03 bubbles look to be good but they should have a waffle-esque seal

Not a TOC but an early attempt at sealing bubbles?

I still do not understand why you would attempt to seal them and have it upside down.

Looking closely Todd, if the bubble was the right way up would it still fit the figure. It looks like the feet would rest on the stem ledge and may not allow enough room at the top for the head??

If the bubble was the right way round I don't think the figure would fit.

 

[ace]

hi

the dust line was created by the next carded trooper being placed on top of this one and the card being pushed as close to the bubble as i could at the time to get more of them on the shelf

the dust was from a air vent in the end of my loft at the time and it seemed to be quite grimy ? maybe it was down to the M25 that was right near by , i also remember the cretans getting very dirty in that house also.

anyway i little bit of sherlockolagy there


j