Resealed figure discovery debate - G.Kurtz Palitoy VC Jawa.

itfciain said:
Maulster79 said:
mr_palitoy said:
Examples of your very early attempts at sealing cards were seen shown at the show. These are obvious reseals and show that you took a bit of time to improve the sealing technique.

Are you using a T-shirt press or similar? Tests have been made with bubbles and cardbacks that produce the same kind of seals that your MOCs show.

Collectors on the forum are talking about calling in the fraud squad. Conservative estimates suggest you have defrauded the collecting community of over half a million pounds over the years.
This makes you the biggest fraud in star wars vintage collecting by a long way.

You have irrevocably damaged European and Palitoy MOC collecting forever. It will never be the same again.

Have you no sense of guilt or remorse for what you have done?

WTF!!!!

Jason- we have NO PROOF! ****ing Zero Proof!

You can go around accusing people of mass fraud and that collectors can come to your market.

Its BS like this that will unravel everything that is being done. He calls the police now and makes out he his being harassed by a cult of ****ing jealous toy collectors you can say goodbye to any resolution to this issue.

Please take a chill pill and wait till we have all the evidence we need. :wink:

Grant - I understand what you are saying here and agree that Jason's email was strongly worded - however you have reacted more indignantly that he did - if any of the accusations in Jason's email weren't true then surely you would go ballistic and defend yourself to the hilt?


I agree with Iain here, you reacted as toni should had reactedinstead of avoiding the issues brought up in that mail.

Do we have conclusive proof? Maybe not.
Is something fishy going on? Defenitly!

Wether your AFA/UKG90 is fake or not, as long as there is no outcome to this situation, i guess the trust and value those moc's have will never be the same anymore.

I know JoeY is offering to buy all Palitoy GM 45 backs cheap on another forum and since there is no reaction, he says people don't believe this situation to be true yet. Well hearing and seeing that people start flogging them on the bay now to get most out off those before the news hits the overall market and kills th eprices, say's the opposite imo.

I don't have any Palitoy GM cards, so i have no loss or gain in this whole situation... just saying my 2c
 
Maulster79 said:
mr_palitoy said:
Examples of your very early attempts at sealing cards were seen shown at the show. These are obvious reseals and show that you took a bit of time to improve the sealing technique.

Are you using a T-shirt press or similar? Tests have been made with bubbles and cardbacks that produce the same kind of seals that your MOCs show.

Collectors on the forum are talking about calling in the fraud squad. Conservative estimates suggest you have defrauded the collecting community of over half a million pounds over the years.
This makes you the biggest fraud in star wars vintage collecting by a long way.

You have irrevocably damaged European and Palitoy MOC collecting forever. It will never be the same again.

Have you no sense of guilt or remorse for what you have done?

WTF!!!!

Jason- we have NO PROOF! ****ing Zero Proof!

You can go around accusing people of mass fraud and that collectors can come to your market.

Its BS like this that will unravel everything that is being done. He calls the police now and makes out he his being harassed by a cult of ****ing jealous toy collectors you can say goodbye to any resolution to this issue.

Please take a chill pill and wait till we have all the evidence we need. :wink:


You are right there is no 100% proof.....but what you do in these situations is look at the evidence and come to your own conclusion and on that basis there is something very fishy going on and the lack of response is pathetic.

I spent last weekend looking at a few of my figures (I only have a handful) as I'm mainly a debut card collector but on closer inspection they don't look great to be honest.

The mixtures and variations of figures also worries me, I have a friend who has many different Fetts all from Toni, all sealed on the Palitoy space scene card and all versions....regular Fett, Trilogo Fett, No stem bubble, single stem, double stem you get the picture. I don't know would a factory sealed haul throw up this many variations?
 
M4K3R1 said:
correct me if im wrong, you admit to knowing these are fakes yet you sold 500 of them.
am i reading this wrong


Hi have nothing to hide and have done nothing Wong so why would i not admit to selling these back in the 80s and 90s ? i bought 500 of them about 80% looked fine to me , there was about 20 % that was a mess and i basically sold them off for the price of a lose mint figure at the time i thought at the time they might have been a packaging error ? i did not think to much about it , they cost 45P each and i mostly sold them for £3 to £8 not really a big thing for me at the time ?

now with all the extra info that has come out on here it has made me thing about what i thought was happening back then and know knowing all that i do like Arthur and Toni joined up and were directors etc and that some now after toni and Arthur joined up there cards figures and bubbles have been the ones that Toni has been selling for decades its all coming together and i would think that these very pore carded figures have not been assembled at the factory and are not seconds or a factory ascendent , its more likely someone putting the parts together to make them more sellable who did that at the time the verdict is still out , but we know Toni is still buying lose figures up to recent so we bereave he is still doing it now and maybe was the person doing back then , but we need toni to give us that info.

so yes 100% i did sell around 500 of these troopers and some very nice fetts also but not knowing they were assembled after the factory has closed.

and one last thing i do not think we can safely they are Fakes really we need to stat to call them what they are "Modern Sealed" M/S

i hope that answers you questions
 
Like I discussed with Jason offline, for his safety and to protect where this goes.

You cannot say- Toytoni is post factory sealing cards.

You can say- the evidence strongly suggests that toytoni has stock of post factory sealed MOCs. There is some evidence that might lead you to believe that he may be sealing them himself.
 
Jason (ace):

Paul cant confirm the stock you bought from Coventry or what was in it.

Every day that list is more and more crucial.
 
But he did confirm that he remembers going to buy stock. I'd be astounded if he did actually recall the name of the guy after such a length of time.
 
Sure,

But if we knew who this guy was and he could verify that they where his stock and where he bought them, we would have taken a large step forward.

Paul is looking through his notes now. He remembers bumping into this collector 5 years ago at a memorabilia. Without it, the 17 modern seal cards that we observed on Sunday only prove the existence of poorly sealed post factory stock.
 
Maulster79 said:
Jason (ace):

Paul cant confirm the stock you bought from Coventry or what was in it.

Every day that list is more and more crucial.


i herd what Paul said do not know the guy DavidS ? second name ? its not that critical as the figures are on the same cards that Toni has been selling and many of the same caritorristics are the same.

there is also one other dealer who's name cam up last night that might also know about Toni back in the day and thats EDITED BY REQUEST a tin and sic-fi trader from Manchester i think some of you may know him also ands he was a round at that time , just another lead to talk to that i feel will remember a lot maybe ?



As to the list i know mate , i do not have my collection in a house in a few boxes , its built up over 30 years i have two wear houses one is 300 square meters the other is around 250 with a upsetters i have move house sins i last saw that list , and things do get moved around , i currently run 5 companies and have run another 5 in the past i keep so much stuff , i have 75 tons of Gary Kurtz paperwork and thats on top of 500,000 toys a spitfire fuselage a harry poster car and a bumble bee car from transformers , so people do need to give me some more time to find this Dam list , i know its important for all collators , let me say this to show you that i know i need to find it and its simple.

i have more carded figures in my collection that are going to be worthless if i cannot pin down the affected cards that Toni has been selling , good on vintage carded figures i have will all be suspect if we cannot get to the bottom of of what carded figures he has been selling , and that list or Toni comes clean are the only two ways of finding that out

so Maulster79 i know it needs to be fond i have now spent 3 full days going though old boxes but before 2008 there is now order at all its just random paperwork and its tuff going.

one last thing thats very important to us all we all want to get to the bottom of this matter , we have all come together to help each other prove this , the evidence that has come out from everyones input is quite astounding but we need to not fight each other over points , we need to create a place where things can come out be them wrong or right.

there as been people on here that air a view that i was in involved in some way, i do not take a fence at that , they are asking a question and airing there thoughts and thats a good thing as facts can come out with this process and these needs to keep happening , we handle things differently but look at what has come together on this tread , this is a very bad situation indeed but it had to come out and its all of us that has broken this story and in the star wars collecting community this is a very big thing.

so lets all try to keep finding and gathering more evidence as there is around 20 years of this stuff out there and lets try to put more info tougher , just the facts we all think the cards are rejects now is also an amassing peace in the puzzle ? maybe this is even something Toni did not know ? but it is star wars history even though many of us are going to be affected by this.


Toni i can see you do not want to come on here and come clean i can fully understand that , but if you want to PM me i think i have a way you can put your self in a better light with everyone and move out of the corner you have put your self in , i would be willing to talk to you but only threw email or this forums messing serves .

i know i was the whistle blower and you must hate me right now , but its going to get worst if you do and say nothing i think there is something you can do that will not hurt you to much and help everyone that has been affected by your actions i sincerely urge you to make contact with me privately.

jason
 
Caswellbot said:
Thanks for the pics Sandtrooper. Well as you can guess, the Hoth trooper doesnt look good. Any chance you could find the ebay seller?? Long shot I know.

That's at least three of these Hoth troopers now that all look very similar.

It's funny because a while back when I asked on RS if anyone knew why the seal looked dodgy, people said not to worry as a lot of Palitoy seals look like this. Now we know why!!!!!!

I'm going to try to contact my ebay seller to identify his source. Long shot though. My MOC was quite dusty and a bit worn so looks like it has been in someone's collection for a few years.
 
Can we call them COC's and have done with it? Sod working out what it stands for. :)[/quote]

COCS us already used for Customs on Card.

I think MS (Modern seal is the way to go

Has anyone visited his shop that rents a space in? In brighton?

Just read the last 15 pages or so and caught up! It aint looking good! :( :( :(
 
Just one thing...

I keep seeing these melted seals and thinking 'I have an ESB Kenner Hoth Han like that'. Has no-one else got Kenner cards with melted seals? Pretty sure it's got the waffle pattern and everything but part of the seal is quite badly melted.

It's just that maybe the melt isn't proof of dodgy 90's sealing processes
 
I've heard it mentioned a few times here and on other forums that while there is plenty of circumstantial evidence, there is no 'smoking gun'. I don't think this is much of a worry to be honest as some of the world's biggest prosecutions have been based on circumstantial evidence only (albeit sufficient circumstantial evidence to show that there is really no other plausible explanation). There does not always need to be a smoking gun.

I'm certain that a case could, if desired, be built against Toni.

Anyone like to hazard a guess as to how he could prove to the police where he sourced all these MOCs if he did not seal them himself? Yes it may in fact be someone else who is sealing them then passing them onto him but then at least this person could be prosecuted.

To my mind, the main issue is not whether there is a strong enough case, it is generating police interest to take on the case.

Look how much evidence has been gathered by people just on this forum. Imagine what the police could do once they have access to his bank accounts, ebay accounts, telephone records, sales records, tax and are able to interview his family/associates and conduct search warrants on his home and workplace.

I'm not saying that it has been proven that Toni is sealing these himself. But if I was the investigating authority, I'd believe there was sufficient cause to investigate him as a 'suspect'.

Maybe this issue needs a media leak to generate some police interest....Of course I'm joking as we need to be careful about publicly defaming Toni in case he is not the guilty party.
 
Does anybody know if Robbie/Galactables has wind of this yet? He has always had a steady flow of Toni's MOCs going through his hands. I seem to remember he's not the kind of guy that's afraid to turn up at your door if you rip him off!
 
edd_jedi said:
Does anybody know if Robbie/Galactables has wind of this yet? He has always had a steady flow of Toni's MOCs going through his hands. I seem to remember he's not the kind of guy that's afraid to turn up at your door if you rip him off!

He must've done by now - he also has a number of them currently up for sale on eBay

http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/m.html?item=251322301983&pt=UK_ToysGames_ActionFigures_ActionFigures_JN&hash=item3a83f9fe1f&_ssn=galactables&_sacat=0&_from=R40&_nkw=palitoy&_sop=3

I am also resuming that he may have sold Toni a number of the U-graded figures as well?
 
I got to admit i thought that mail from Jason to Toni was a bit rude especially virtually accussing him when still not 100 percent proof.....if theres ever 100 percent proof it would be acceptable
 
lee gray said:
I got to admit i thought that mail from Jason to Toni was a bit rude especially virtually accussing him when still not 100 percent proof.....if theres ever 100 percent proof it would be acceptable

It's a difficult one Lee. I agree it was very forward, but if somebody had potentially ripped me off for thousands of pounds I'd be pretty forward with them too. I don't have any of them any more so am purely a spectator. But I have definitely bought over a dozen from him over the years.

I think it's also worth mentioning that I and others have bought genuine MOCs from him too, eg tri logos.
 
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