Resealed figure discovery debate - G.Kurtz Palitoy VC Jawa.

[itfciain]

Has anyone else run a black light over the actual figure? Josh has done so with his Dengar (pics on RS) and it appears to show touch-ups - if this anyone else can check their figures under the black light and spot any form of touch up then surely this proves that these were sealed post factory (and that UKG/AFA made a terrible error if they are graded)

 

[jambobbyb]

I collect ww2 German items and Black light is heavily used to identify post war items, One of the things we have found is a vintage uniform washed in modern detergent glows under black light, This could be a cleaning fluid Toni used on the cards, Say he gave it a quick wipe over with a cloth with some sort of modern cleaning solution applied.

 

[chazb73]

I've not posted in this subject yet - so very sad for the hobby

I've seen one or two of the type in question on ebay in the last 24 hours. Do you think we will suddenly see an deluge? There will be buyers who are not aware of this mess...

 

[jay4]

I have an old school friend who is a producer for the BBC.. He and I were Star Wars mad in the seventies (I still am).

Would it be a good idea I bring this to his attention?

if this friend is that don from "dont get done get don" yes by all means get him in he could very well be just the man to get on this :lol:

 

[darthberizing]

Hey everyone,

Honestly I've been quiet on this (sans a few small posts on TIG) because I think something doesn't add up in my mind. I think this revelation, the fake ironed stormies, and list are just overwhelming evidence against Toni so, something is wrong with it. JJ seems to keep trying to move past this, like there is nothing more to see. I don't think it's the case. However, Toni himself is the main reason I have doubts. Had he come forward earlier I think this would have stopped about 80 pages ago.

My issue is that there seem to be many running theories about identifying. Crescent shaped openings mid bubble, blobs of ink, the little dimples, the "03" stamp, press marks on the back, and they seem to be debunked. Is there any list of what's been tried as a possible identifier?

BTW - if there was 25,000 "items" is it not possible there were thousands of MOCs that were from the missing pages? I think Jason said 11,000 or so were the added total. So maybe 14,000 MOCs were there?

I'm not trying to make things difficult but I do want to point out a few things. If theyve been covered I apologize

1)My Glasslite MOCs have no pressure on the backs. If I showed you the back only, you'd think it was a proof.

2)I did the blacklight thing. My TT 2-1B didn't shine like Bossk did. But my Meccano 65bk Ree Yees was pretty close! I used a Kenner MOC Dengar (in honor of Josh) and big difference. I don't know if blacklights will be the answer

I think someone mentioned who has what, I have

GM 45bk 2-1B on single stem - English Text - little circles (or holes) on bubble top
GM 45bk Bossk on single stem - No Text - little circles (or holes) on bubble top
GM 45bk C3PO on single stem - No Text - no little circles

None have the crescent lift as described.

My 2-1B does have that rough look someone else showed , almost like water damage that lifts the cardboard. Barely visible but you can tell.

 

[James Simmonds]

Has anyone considered that some of the 'Jedi' cardbacks could have been tri-logo ones? 'Jedi' cards were just that regardless of the language of the logo back then. The three cartons of bubbles that had were deemed unusable could have been the tri-logo ones that are almost always damaged. Put these two components together and you may have a lot of tri-logos out there that have also been made post-Palitoy.

James.

 

[jedisearcher]

I think there was definitely a load of real, factory sealed MOC's (all original) from the deal. These were sold earliest (you'd think).

There was also a 3 cartons of bubbles for unmade cardbacks, plus a load of unmade cardbacks with no bubbles.

At some point, like through the sort of timeline posted afew pages back the original bubbles and cardbacks that were available were made up and started being sold (as the real MOC's ran out for those figures). Modern carded then.

And somewhere around the same time the remaining unmade cardbacks with no bubble one's somehow got bubbles - repro? These seem to be the ones with the dots on them. I've got a Han Bespin single stem with those on. Modern carded/repro bubbles.

You probably knew all that already :lol: , but it's worth considering them all separately as I think what you might expect for one (say a properly made up MOC sold at the start), might be very different under blacklights or whatever to the same figure that was produced once the original stock was gone, and maybe is modern carded, or even modern carded/ & repro bubbled one.

Chris

 

[lee gray]

For near on 15 years we heard the story from some big names in the collectors game that Toni came into possession of a ton of carded star wars figures, never did we hear he came into possession of lose cardbacks.

for 1 week we hear Toni came into possession of unused cardbacks and figures and all of a sudden most people now believe this instead...........

 

[escapist]

Has anyone considered that some of the 'Jedi' cardbacks could have been tri-logo ones? 'Jedi' cards were just that regardless of the language of the logo back then. The three cartons of bubbles that had were deemed unusable could have been the tri-logo ones that are almost always damaged. Put these two components together and you may have a lot of tri-logos out there that have also been made post-Palitoy.

James.

Going along these lines.... Whilst not Trilogo cards, he has sold two cards recently that are the 65bks with trilogo bubbles, calling them 'factory defects'

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/RARE-PALITOY-ROTJ-TRILOGO-HYBRID-WALRUSMAN-FACTORY-ERROR-/251399006457?hash=item3a888c68f9&nma=true&si=Rug4qnAi%252FJm6XcjHiMF6th7pTv4%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557


"HARD TO FIND HYBRID IN EXCELLENT CONDITION.CARD IS CREASE FREE AND VERY CLEAN AS IN PHOTOS..THE TRILOGO STYLE BUBBLE IS IN EXCELLENT CONDITION AND HAS A FACTORY DEFECT -ONLY SEALED ON 3 SIDES WITH THE BOTTOM EDGE OF THE BUBBLE MISSING.."

Certainly a possibility.

 

[darthberizing]

For near on 15 years we heard the story from some big names in the collectors game that Toni came into possession of a ton of carded star wars figures, never did we hear he came into possession of lose cardbacks and accepted it

for 1 week week we hear Toni came into possession of unused cardbacks and figures and most now accept that......

I'm with you Lee. It just doesn't add up. Sorry to the people who disagree but it's never this easy and obvious. I'm not about to assume my MOCs are worthless based on conjecture either. Like I said, everytime someone comes up with an identifier it gets shown to be false.

Toni's biggest problem is Toni (in my opinion).

 

[jedisearcher]

For near on 15 years we heard the story from some big names in the collectors game that Toni came into possession of a ton of carded star wars figures, never did we hear he came into possession of lose cardbacks.

for 1 week we hear Toni came into possession of unused cardbacks and figures and all of a sudden most people now believe this instead...........

And the 2nd ebay account?

A question, not a challenge

 

[darthberizing]

One last debunk of the blacklight

That's a Meccano 65bk General Madine I got from Stephane. No doubts there

 

[jedisearcher]

For near on 15 years we heard the story from some big names in the collectors game that Toni came into possession of a ton of carded star wars figures, never did we hear he came into possession of lose cardbacks.

for 1 week we hear Toni came into possession of unused cardbacks and figures and all of a sudden most people now believe this instead...........

And the 2nd ebay account?

A question, not a challenge

Sorry, also reading Josh's timeline thread on RS, Chris Caswell recalls a conversation with Jim Stephenson about unused cardbacks. Plus, there's loads of unused 3PO's around, not proofs.

I think JJ wants Jim in on this conversation, plus others perhaps.

 

[lee gray]

For near on 15 years we heard the story from some big names in the collectors game that Toni came into possession of a ton of carded star wars figures, never did we hear he came into possession of lose cardbacks.

for 1 week we hear Toni came into possession of unused cardbacks and figures and all of a sudden most people now believe this instead...........

And the 2nd ebay account?

A question, not a challenge

Even with all the evidence against Toni, I only believe he is guilty due to his silence as no way would anyone with this much to lose as Toni would stay quiet like this.

 

[jedisearcher]

For near on 15 years we heard the story from some big names in the collectors game that Toni came into possession of a ton of carded star wars figures, never did we hear he came into possession of lose cardbacks.

for 1 week we hear Toni came into possession of unused cardbacks and figures and all of a sudden most people now believe this instead...........

And the 2nd ebay account?

A question, not a challenge

Even with all the evidence against Toni, I only believe he is guilty due to his silence as no way would anyone with this much to lose as Toni would stay quiet like this.

Sorry Lee I meant to say earlier, I agree 100% that TT's silence is very, very odd and it does seem there's a lot more to this than we've seen in this thread.

You guys all know each other really well, I'm new on here so I get most information on here by reading old threads and there is an old one where toni is accused of being a bit lax on communication. He comes on straight away defending his corner as you'd expect him to. That he hasn't on the current matter is out of character, based on the other thread.

 

[søren]

If the people who are selling the Toni Carded German figures on ebay.com for several hundred pounds are reading this - shame on you!

Send them a standard message on eBay . Telling them they are selling fake cardet mocs .and a link to one of the treads .

That way they can't say they sold in good faith. And the poor buyer might get his money back if they read this theard . Also a list of sellers that has got the email might be great to have online here . Then buyers can see who are " toy tony scammers "

 

[darthberizing]

If the people who are selling the Toni Carded German figures on ebay.com for several hundred pounds are reading this - shame on you!

Send them a standard message on eBay . Telling them they are selling fake cardet mocs .and a link to one of the treads .

That way they can't say they sold in good faith. And the poor buyer might get his money back if they read this theard . Also a list of sellers that has got the email might be great to have online here . Then buyers can see who are " toy tony scammers "

People are speculating. If it turns out to be false, they lost a ton. Nothing is close to being concrete proof.

 

[Lafos]

A recent AFA response ... happy holidays

Hello Erik,

Thank you for contacting us. We are aware of the posts. Unfortunately, we cannot make a statement based on speculations in a forum.


Happy holidays.


Sincerely,
Kim

 

[Richard_H]

Here's my response,

Dear AFA,

Bollocks.

Yours sincerely
Richard

 

[Captainsolo1978]

Tons of Palitoy Jedi C3 POs on ebay.com.....

 

[poncho]

scandal gone global on usa ebay.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/FRAUD-IN-THE-HOBBY-PLEASE-READ-Palitoy-Star-Wars-ROTJ-MOC-45-BACK-GENERAL-MILLS-/370968446229?pt=US_Action_Figures&hash=item565f714515

 

[Captainsolo1978]

Well someone should tell Brian's Toys- they have a light blue Jedi Fett for sale at a hefty sum!!!!

 

[_Darren_]

Here's my response,

Dear AFA,

Bollocks.

Yours sincerely
Richard

+1,Rich!!!

Darren

 

[Lafos]

For near on 15 years we heard the story from some big names in the collectors game that Toni came into possession of a ton of carded star wars figures, never did we hear he came into possession of lose cardbacks.

for 1 week we hear Toni came into possession of unused cardbacks and figures and all of a sudden most people now believe this instead...........

And the 2nd ebay account?

A question, not a challenge

Even with all the evidence against Toni, I only believe he is guilty due to his silence as no way would anyone with this much to lose as Toni would stay quiet like this.

If I'm TT's (or AFA's) lawyer, they would response they way they did.

 

[robsolo32]

100% true. They won't say anything that may implicate them or put them in a position where they may be found guilty or held responsible.

The responsibility is on the collectors to find the proof first.

 

[Richard_H]

I disagree. They could save face by simply stating the matter is in the hands of their lawyer. Why would they remain silent and watch their rep go further down the pan?

 

[Caswellbot]

AFA have never been that good at dealing with issues from what I have seen of them. I have a friend who sent in a number of proof cards this year including a Fett revenge proof and AFA lost them!!!! It took them months to put it right and from my conversations with him it was a bit of a **** show in my opinion. I think we need to understand that these guys are a business first and foremost. You can forget the loyalty to collectors bit as this doesnt ring true with them. Theyre out to make money. Take for example their stance on grade tiering and how high end items are all of a sudden more expensive to grade than other items even though it involves virtually the same workload.

With regards to UKG I have spoken to Steve and he is not willing to comment for proffessional reasons.

The grading companies will sit back and watch it play out. It is and will continue to be up to us the collectors to continue to look into this matter as strange as that may seem.

I think the recent posts by Krafterdermacht (Wolfgang) regarding the emergence of unusual and previously unavailable bubble types is another very good indication of what went on here.

I do take on board John Darthberizing's comments about circumstancial evidence but for me now there is more than enough to make up my mind. I think its also ironic that a number of members on here have done more to defend Toni than Toni has for himself! It speaks volumes. This notion that he is sitting back and watching it unfold and waiting for it to die down or for people to make fools of themselves is rubbish in my opinion. He is quiet for a reason. On the few occasions he has commented he has done himself no favours and his story has not addded up.

I have no doubt that Toni has/ had legitimate carded figure in the lot that he bought. I have seen some. Like I said earlier, I have seen some definite legit Kenner cards, meccano cloth cape jawas and some genuine Palitoys. I do not know anyone who has sold any quantity of unused cardbacks other than Toni which at least goes to prove that he has had some. Given his creativity/ vagueness with the truth over his relationship with Arthur I am definitely not willing to take him on his word on where he got them from.

I would also like to know how there can be so many figure and bubble variations for some of these. Just look at the fetts of which one collector has more than 6 variations! Im sorry but for such a limited run that just doesnt work for me. If someone can find me another legitimate example of this many variations of the same figure I may be willing to concede on this point.

Id love to do a straw poll to see how many of the members on here have changed their Ebay ID 30 times. Hell Id like to know how many have changed it 10 times! Its a joke.

Everyone must come to their own conclusions of course. Would I buy any of the cards in question now? No I wouldnt.

 

[lee gray]

I disagree. They could save face by simply stating the matter is in the hands of their lawyer. Why would they remain silent and watch their rep go further down the pan?

Yep no matter what now the damage is done and thats mainly because of his silence, which is ashame.

Just out of interest has any body here or knows anybody who purchased a ROTJ carded light blue fett from retail or have they only shown up on Toni cards as checking that list out it states there was only two loose fetts on it so he would have had to purchase a stock load of the light blue ones from somewhere and cant see him winning so many on ebay as that many dont show up plus has been selling these before ebay.

 

[kraftdermacht]

Hey everyone,

Honestly I've been quiet on this (sans a few small posts on TIG) because I think something doesn't add up in my mind. I think this revelation, the fake ironed stormies, and list are just overwhelming evidence against Toni so, something is wrong with it. JJ seems to keep trying to move past this, like there is nothing more to see. I don't think it's the case. However, Toni himself is the main reason I have doubts. Had he come forward earlier I think this would have stopped about 80 pages ago.

My issue is that there seem to be many running theories about identifying. Crescent shaped openings mid bubble, blobs of ink, the little dimples, the "03" stamp, press marks on the back, and they seem to be debunked. Is there any list of what's been tried as a possible identifier?

BTW - if there was 25,000 "items" is it not possible there were thousands of MOCs that were from the missing pages? I think Jason said 11,000 or so were the added total. So maybe 14,000 MOCs were there?

I'm not trying to make things difficult but I do want to point out a few things. If theyve been covered I apologize

1)My Glasslite MOCs have no pressure on the backs. If I showed you the back only, you'd think it was a proof.

2)I did the blacklight thing. My TT 2-1B didn't shine like Bossk did. But my Meccano 65bk Ree Yees was pretty close! I used a Kenner MOC Dengar (in honor of Josh) and big difference. I don't know if blacklights will be the answer


I think someone mentioned who has what, I have

GM 45bk 2-1B on single stem - English Text - little circles (or holes) on bubble top
GM 45bk Bossk on single stem - No Text - little circles (or holes) on bubble top
GM 45bk C3PO on single stem - No Text - no little circles

None have the crescent lift as described.

My 2-1B does have that rough look someone else showed , almost like water damage that lifts the cardboard. Barely visible but you can tell.

I think all the cards are genuine. Also the bluish ones. They are just from a different print shop/batch and from the 80s I would say.

Blacklight can help to find paint repair on re-carded figures.

Right now I belive the bubbles with the reported marks are repro.

Wolfgang

 

[mr_palitoy]

Ok, here is a new take on the list data, this time, it's just total numbers of unused cards.
On the list, german, clipper and Palitoy ESB are not identified well.
I have used the info from Tonis web site for sale list and rarity of minty mint MOCs to try and tie down the
list a bit better.

Please let me know of any amendments.

Clipper ESB

145 Rebel Commander
138 Bespin Security Guard White
69 Hammerhead
56 Walrusman
11 Dengar

General Mills ESB

563 Han Hoth
526 Stormtrooper
357 C3PO Removable Limbs
320 AT-AT Driver
318 Bespin Security Guard Black
276 IG88
268 21B
194 Han Solo
171 R2D2 Sensorscope
166 Leia Bespin
162 Han Bespin
138 Ben Kenobi
118 Power Droid
85 Yoda
70 AT-AT Commander
50 Leia Hoth
36 Rebel Soldier
26 FX-7
25 Princess Leia
11 R5D4

General Mills ROTJ

30 Cloud Car Pilot
6 Imperial Tie Fighter Pilot


Palitoy ESB

1000 Bossk
264 Imperial Tie Fighter Pilot
132 Chewbacca

Palitoy ROTJ

1234 C3PO Removable Limbs
1126 Imperial Hoth Trooper
885 Luke Skywalker
482 Boba Fett
467 Lobot
417 Death Star Droid
301 21B
143 Chewbacca
132 Luke Bespin
105 Luke Hoth
86 Lando Skiff Guard
81 Logray
60 Squid Head
47 Han Solo
39 AT-AT Driver
31 Gamorrean Guard
30 Leia Boussh
27 AT-AT Commander
12 Yoda
8 Cloud Car Pilot

cheers Jason