Resealed figure discovery debate - G.Kurtz Palitoy VC Jawa.

[itfciain]

I got to admit i thought that mail from Jason to Toni was a bit rude especially virtually accussing him when still not 100 percent proof.....if theres ever 100 percent proof it would be acceptable

I think it was designed to get a rise out of him - especially as he has been pretty quiet - it didn't work and actually makes him seem even more guilty

 

[Grant_C]

Does anybody know if Robbie/Galactables has wind of this yet? He has always had a steady flow of Toni's MOCs going through his hands. I seem to remember he's not the kind of guy that's afraid to turn up at your door if you rip him off!

I believe his prices may have dropped on those Luke Farmboy.

 

[edd_jedi]

Here's a new question (I think!) Whenever I see a used cardback, it tends to look like this:

or even this

The bubble never just falls off a card, it literally has to be ripped off. So does that mean anything with minor lifting that doesn't rip the card is suspect?

 

[mr_palitoy]

Here's a new question (I think!) Whenever I see a used cardback, it tends to look like this:

or even this

The bubble never just falls off a card, it literally has to be ripped off. So does that mean anything with minor lifting that doesn't rip the card is suspect?

Trilogos suffer from a hell of a lot more bubble rip than Palitoy ROTJ due to being on thinner card so you are not comparing like with like.
The best way of judging whether you have and opened Toni, would be if it is on an affected card/figure combo, if the card is minty mint, has no price sticker
and has tell tale signs of printing errors that have been spotted on others.

I wouldn't be too worried about cardbacks as they arent worth much, the MOCs on the other hand, especially the AFA 90s...

cheers Jason

 

[Richard_H]

I disagree with that Jason. From an historical pov it doesn't matter if it's worth pennies or thousands it needs accurately documented.

 

[mr_palitoy]

I disagree with that Jason. From an historical pov it doesn't matter if it's worth pennies or thousands it needs accurately documented.

Fair enough, but without the dodgy seals and bubbles it's much harder to tell. Best looking for printing error tells if more are found.

Jason

 

[lee gray]

Lee Gray posted the main AFA population reports over @ facebook ...

I demand to see the two AFA 10's!! :lol:

lol

Watching the muppets and looking at the afa population list, now that's multitasking

Adam

I looked at the tabs after and thought **** i should have cropped it, lucky it wasnt a pornlink up the top

 

[itfciain]

I looked at the tabs after and thought **** i should have cropped it, lucky it was a pornlink up the top

ha ha - now that would have been funny :lol:

 

[Joe]

It's been a busy few days on the forums it seems, I've been trying to catch up all morning/afternoon.

It feels very much like there are a few people on the boards that are trying to get to the bottom of this but with 3 threads on 3 different forums (plus all the emails/PM's etc) the information and the posts are a little scattered. I think we can all agree that it's ultimately going to take longer to put everything together if an important post on RS is quoted on TIG then a couple of days later it finally pops up on here, so it's going to prove counter productive and we don't want important posts being lost.

I fully understand that everyone in the community needs to know that this investigation is happening and that Toni may well have committed the biggest scam in our hobby's history but I really do think we should stop with the theories, bickering, useless happy happy joy joy stuff and most importantly all the cross forum posting (with regard to factual information and observations).

Many pages back Oli tried to get people to send him close up pictures of carded figures bought recently from Toni as he has pictures saved of all the loose figure auctions Toni won on ebay with his second account. Sadly he had no response at all. Think about it - if we can prove a loose figure Toni bought on ebay was then sold on a card as factory sealed it would be game over. Get on it guys and try to help those offering their free time to the community in order to solve this.

I've read Toni's reply to Jason just now and it gives me little hope that this is all untrue, it seemed very much the reply of a very scared individual and not the reply you would expect from an innocent person. So, with him refusing to come to the forum and all the other pieces of evidence we can all see it's not looking good.

A special request from me then: All those that have factual information or can shed some light on this with indisputable facts (not theories) can you please post here? I know some people are probably holding back for whatever reason and obviously there are people that don't want to get involved too but if that's the case then pass your info on to others who can add it to this thread.

 

[edd_jedi]

It's a good idea Joe, starting a fresh thread with just facts is something I've already considered and have had suggested, but the problem is there aren't too many facts yet. A "how to spot a <insert scammers name here> fake MOC" thread will be very useful once it's all been confirmed.

I agree with your point about matching recent sales though - are there no eBay tools that show sales history any more?

 

[Richard_H]

Joe much of this has came about with discussion. I mentioned (theorised if you like) about Resealed bubbles pages ago but instantly dismissed as impossible and I shut up. Now look where we are. It is good to debate, theorise and discuss this. This is bigger than all of the forums put together. Heck it's even bigger than SW collecting in general.

However,
I do think there should be a thread with facts/requests for more info etc that can perhaps only be added to by mods but this thread isn't it.

 

[ace]

It's been a busy few days on the forums it seems, I've been trying to catch up all morning/afternoon.

It feels very much like there are a few people on the boards that are trying to get to the bottom of this but with 3 threads on 3 different forums (plus all the emails/PM's etc) the information and the posts are a little scattered. I think we can all agree that it's ultimately going to take longer to put everything together if an important post on RS is quoted on TIG then a couple of days later it finally pops up on here, so it's going to prove counter productive and we don't want important posts being lost.

I fully understand that everyone in the community needs to know that this investigation is happening and that Toni may well have committed the biggest scam in our hobby's history but I really do think we should stop with the theories, bickering, useless happy happy joy joy stuff and most importantly all the cross forum posting (with regard to factual information and observations).

Many pages back Oli tried to get people to send him close up pictures of carded figures bought recently from Toni as he has pictures saved of all the loose figure auctions Toni won on ebay with his second account. Sadly he had no response at all. Think about it - if we can prove a loose figure Toni bought on ebay was then sold on a card as factory sealed it would be game over. Get on it guys and try to help those offering their free time to the community in order to solve this.

I've read Toni's reply to Jason just now and it gives me little hope that this is all untrue, it seemed very much the reply of a very scared individual and not the reply you would expect from an innocent person. So, with him refusing to come to the forum and all the other pieces of evidence we can all see it's not looking good.

A special request from me then: All those that have factual information or can shed some light on this with indisputable facts (not theories) can you please post here? I know some people are probably holding back for whatever reason and obviously there are people that don't want to get involved too but if that's the case then pass your info on to others who can add it to this thread.

very good post Joe

the facts and all the evidence we need is out there in the public domain any help you can give to Oli is the best chance to close done any doubt 100% then when we have 100% then maybe Toni will talk to us , then we can start to do damaged control on whats affected and what is not.

good job everyone

 

[Joe]

Yep it has been mentioned a few times and now is probably the right time to start that investigation thread where the only posts allowed must be related to the investigation and to getting to the bottom of the card/bubble and figure stuff.

We already have the information Mattias has provided us about the cards and the printing errors as well as a bunch of pictures from people of carded figures but I must admit I am getting a bit lost in all the bubble stuff so maybe if we start that thread someone can help out and monitor that side of things? Spoons perhaps? You seem to be following it better than I am!

I'll ask Oli if he can also post up pictures of all of Toni's ebay loose buys in that thread and maybe with some visual reference on the forums people will come forward and say "hey that loose figure looks like the one on the card I just bought".

I'll set one up later on if everyone agrees that's the best idea?

 

[Dark Sith Lord]

Sounds like a great idea to me Joe as i too I am struggling to follow all this about bubble "01" 02 and O3 :lol:

 

[edd_jedi]

I completely agree that continued discussion is essential. Yes not all of it is constructive, but 50 pages ago people were laughing off my suggestion that an original card and bubble could be manipulated to look like a genuine MOC, or that there were tell-tale signs such as printing errors or random bubble/COO combinations.

 

[Richard_H]

Makes sense. Now, is there any reason why the ebay buying account is not publicly known? A lot of research can be done on that.

 

[Joe]

Joe much of this has came about with discussion. I mentioned (theorised if you like) about Resealed bubbles pages ago but instantly dismissed as impossible and I shut up. Now look where we are. It is good to debate, theorise and discuss this. This is bigger than all of the forums put together. Heck it's even bigger than SW collecting in general.

However,
I do think there should be a thread with facts/requests for more info etc that can perhaps only be added to by mods but this thread isn't it.

Oh I definitely agree it's helped get us this far (and that's exactly why we've let the thread run) but with all the forums discussing this now I think we are definitely at a point where pics + facts need to be collated in one place and we can then step off the theory train for a while and try to come up with some concrete evidence this actually all took place.

Definitely no harm in thinking outside the box on this one and trying to make sense of it but we should probably keep facts and theories separate for a while and concentrate on sorting this mess out.

I feel if Toni were ever going to reply to address concerns he may feel better doing it in a thread where he can look at the evidence presented in picture form instead of having to trawl through an 80+ page thread and pick out posts to reply to. Although, at this point I don't think Toni will ever come back to reply so best we just put things together for the community.

 

[ace]

Yep it has been mentioned a few times and now is probably the right time to start that investigation thread where the only posts allowed must be related to the investigation and to getting to the bottom of the card/bubble and figure stuff.

We already have the information Mattias has provided us about the cards and the printing errors as well as a bunch of pictures from people of carded figures but I must admit I am getting a bit lost in all the bubble stuff so maybe if we start that thread someone can help out and monitor that side of things? Spoons perhaps? You seem to be following it better than I am!

I'll ask Oli if he can also post up pictures of all of Toni's ebay loose buys in that thread and maybe with some visual reference on the forums people will come forward and say "hey that loose figure looks like the one on the card I just bought".

I'll set one up later on if everyone agrees that's the best idea?

thinking about this more i also agree to start up a new tread maybe called "ongoing investigation" "cardgate" ? where the only things that are put in there are facts now , as anyone new on here reading 87 pages of stuff at the beginning were we could not even agree to being able to put a bubble on a card he been well and truly debarckeld and is now irrelevant.

i also feel we need the best people in there fealds on here helping with facts


we need the people that understand the cards like jason and more like him

we need the people that understand the figures and the copyright on the legs as i think thats an even bigger smoking gun , if people know that these late figures cannot be on ESB cards we need to know what ?

and we need to have people that also understand bubble also


these people are very important

then if we need to gather up photos of any thing that has come from toni over the years ?

one thing i do not know this when something is graded dose it have a indervigel grading number from the graders ? do they keep a record of how paid for the grading ? do they have records if Toni has gone direct to them to get something graded him self ? sorry i just do not know how this worked .

i also think its time that some of these grading companies come on here to help us where ever they can , its not there fault in any way they have been caught out like many collectors so i do not think anyone can or should blame then , but we do need help to get totally to the bottom of this matter.

the figures i have here have been photographed , they are available for anyone that needs to see them or needs any more images from them , these are early figures from Toni and i want to find some more from this time so there is a another sores of these early trial attempts of putting the bubbles on the card .

we are really getting somewhere here now i think we can all see , we still need theories and ideas as that has got us where we are right now , so lets keep gathering up stuff i am shore more info is out there this has been going on 20 odd year lets find it .

so i agree with putting up a new thread if everyone else agrees ?

jason

 

[yeah-sus]

About pictures of recently bought toni mocs,have somebody talked to the guys behind the site sw valuable check or something like that?
They scan ebay every month and should have 1000's of moc pictures in their archive
Found the link
http://chivecastmarketwatch.wordpress.com/

 

[ace]

there has been some of us living in this tread a little more than others and understand more of the facts than others

do you think it would be best to put together the following

a list of facts

then a list of not yet proven theories that we be leave to be the truth

and then just put photos and visual evidence


maybe this should be put together and ran past the 4 or 5 key people that have found out and helped out the most on here first before going live so we all agree its correct ?

there is a lot of people now watching these thread and expecting us to get this right and get the facts right also .

whats everyones thoughts ?

j