Resealed figure discovery debate - G.Kurtz Palitoy VC Jawa.

[itfciain]

i also think its time that some of these grading companies come on here to help us where ever they can , its not there fault in any way they have been caught out like many collectors so i do not think anyone can or should blame then , but we do need help to get totally to the bottom of this matter.

I know that Grant has spoken with Steve at UKG and he is obviously worried about the situation - I think it would be interesting to hear from him and/or AFA but don't think they will break cover until some concrete proof is found

 

[lee gray]

Just out of interest as must have missed it, how did jasons friend acquire all of these attempted heat sealed samples, was he going through tonis bin or was toni stupid enough to sell them like that when considering he had 25000 cards he could have just ripped the figure off and tried again.

 

[_Lee_]

Does anybody know if Robbie/Galactables has wind of this yet? He has always had a steady flow of Toni's MOCs going through his hands. I seem to remember he's not the kind of guy that's afraid to turn up at your door if you rip him off!

Edd,i have spoken to Robbie on the phone.He is suffering through this as much as the next person.He wants to come here to say a few things about the situation,but is a bit weary because of the usual 'U' grade fiasco.He sent Toni an email and i saw the reply.If Robbie chooses to divulge that himself,then ill let him do the talking.

Also Rob seems to think that some being deemed as forged bv Toni,could well be legit.Trust me,he would know as loads have passed his hands.He also has very good info about Toni and 'U' grades.

Lets just try to put the 'U' grading digs and comments to one side,and see what Robbie has to say.I can assure you that you will be happy you did.Robbie knows a lot about this situation and has been thinking about it a lot,so instead of harsh,uncalled for comments let talk some sense,and get a bit more information on our sides.

Lee

 

[edd_jedi]

Just out of interest as must have missed it, how did jasons friend acquire all of these attempted heat sealed samples, was he going through tonis bin or was toni stupid enough to sell them like that when considering he had 25000 cards he could have just ripped the figure off and tried again.

I believe the source of them is still under scrutiny and apparently this is how they were sold back in the early 90s as the prices were a lot lower and people were less condition sensitive. So that is not confirmed yet.

However what they do confirm is that unused cardbacks and bubbles existed, and somebody was trying to put them together. That is the golden goose so far IMO - something nobody before now thought possible.

 

[edd_jedi]

Edd,i have spoken to Robbie on the phone.He is suffering through this as much as the next person.He wants to come here to say a few things about the situation,but is a bit weary because of the usual 'U' grade fiasco.He sent Toni an email and i saw the reply.If Robbie chooses to divulge that himself,then ill let him do the talking.

Also Rob seems to think that some being deemed as forged bv Toni,could well be legit.Trust me,he would know as loads have passed his hands.He also has very good info about Toni and 'U' grades.

Lets just try to put the 'U' grading digs and comments to one side,and see what Robbie has to say.I can assure you that you will be happy you did.Robbie knows a lot about this situation and has been thinking about it a lot,so instead of harsh,uncalled for comments let talk some sense,and get a bit more information on our sides.

Lee

That would be great Lee. My post was in no way a dig at Robbie, I've bought from him several times over the years and personally I have nothing against him, he seems a stand up guy apart from the U grading which as you say is subjective.

 

[itfciain]

Does anybody know if Robbie/Galactables has wind of this yet? He has always had a steady flow of Toni's MOCs going through his hands. I seem to remember he's not the kind of guy that's afraid to turn up at your door if you rip him off!

Edd,i have spoken to Robbie on the phone.He is suffering through this as much as the next person.He wants to come here to say a few things about the situation,but is a bit weary because of the usual 'U' grade fiasco.He sent Toni an email and i saw the reply.If Robbie chooses to divulge that himself,then ill let him do the talking.

Also Rob seems to think that some being deemed as forged bv Toni,could well be legit.Trust me,he would know as loads have passed his hands.He also has very good info about Toni and 'U' grades.

Lets just try to put the 'U' grading digs and comments to one side,and see what Robbie has to say.I can assure you that you will be happy you did.Robbie knows a lot about this situation and has been thinking about it a lot,so instead of harsh,uncalled for comments let talk some sense,and get a bit more information on our sides.

Lee

Lee - from a U-Grading point of view then this whole sorry saga could have one bright spot - and that is that U-grades will no longer be applicable. How can AFA state with any certainty that something has be 'untouched' when they have graded resealed figures. In fact it is actually possible that an item has been U-graded, then purchased by Toni - resealed onto a card only for that card to have been sent in for U-grading !!

I think a lot of people would be very interested to hear what Robbie has to say and hope that he comes on here to give us his opinions

 

[Richard_H]

I agree. I've pmd Robbie in the hope that he comes forward. If he does then can he be given a chance to say what he has to say. Put other issues aside for now.

 

[Joe]

I would very much like to echo Lee, Edd and Rich on this and say that if Robbie has important information regarding Toni and his figures (even if it's in Toni's favour) then he should be welcomed to the forum to discuss it. If anyone wants to talk U grades there are dedicated U grading threads on the forum to use.

 

[Dark Sith Lord]

I agree. Everyone should come together for this and otherwise issues should be left at the door,

Would love Robbie to post his view on this fiasco

 

[lee gray]

The very first fett I purchased off Toni, the card had a huge crease in it as I asked him for a carded fett, never mentioned condition, after that I would always mention condition i wanted first as to not get a creased card again, this was very early 90s and apart from the crease it looked great.

When I got my first light blue fett from him much later around 1999 as I was unsure of it I contacted someone at toysrgus, pretty sure it was Chris and he confirmed he knew of the variation.

I remember at the time asking Toni if he had a fett with H bubble and he told me the only H bubble one he had was the light blue variation which was about 45 pound more, so if indeed he was sealing bubbles, then he must have done it all before 1999 or would have used a H bubble for the regular Fett instead of saying he had sold out of them, yet has sold other mint figures since with H bubble so either pre 1999 or genuine

Some of his trilogos are amazing too yet i once traded him a recarded yak face which he sold on as a recarded yak face instead of taking fiure from recard and putting it on a fresh backer.

Still dont know what to believe though.

 

[olisuds]

It's been a busy few days on the forums it seems, I've been trying to catch up all morning/afternoon.

It feels very much like there are a few people on the boards that are trying to get to the bottom of this but with 3 threads on 3 different forums (plus all the emails/PM's etc) the information and the posts are a little scattered. I think we can all agree that it's ultimately going to take longer to put everything together if an important post on RS is quoted on TIG then a couple of days later it finally pops up on here, so it's going to prove counter productive and we don't want important posts being lost.

I fully understand that everyone in the community needs to know that this investigation is happening and that Toni may well have committed the biggest scam in our hobby's history but I really do think we should stop with the theories, bickering, useless happy happy joy joy stuff and most importantly all the cross forum posting (with regard to factual information and observations).

Many pages back Oli tried to get people to send him close up pictures of carded figures bought recently from Toni as he has pictures saved of all the loose figure auctions Toni won on ebay with his second account. Sadly he had no response at all. Think about it - if we can prove a loose figure Toni bought on ebay was then sold on a card as factory sealed it would be game over. Get on it guys and try to help those offering their free time to the community in order to solve this.

I've read Toni's reply to Jason just now and it gives me little hope that this is all untrue, it seemed very much the reply of a very scared individual and not the reply you would expect from an innocent person. So, with him refusing to come to the forum and all the other pieces of evidence we can all see it's not looking good.

A special request from me then: All those that have factual information or can shed some light on this with indisputable facts (not theories) can you please post here? I know some people are probably holding back for whatever reason and obviously there are people that don't want to get involved too but if that's the case then pass your info on to others who can add it to this thread.

Thanks Joe... I think

The seals and cards on Toni's MOCs are exceptionally good so whilst there are a lot of indicators that strongly suggest Toni has been seeling his own MOCs, most of it is circumstantial IMO. If we manage to ID one the loose figures he has bought on a MOC he has sold then we have solid evidence and Toni will have been caught with the smoking gun.

I have downloaded the pictures of the loose figures he has bought in the last month from his second private account and they are very detailed macro shots. I'm working on getting pictures from further back but I don't know if I am able. (any help would be appreciated with this). If anyone is able to send me pictures of MOCs Toni has sold in the last month I am happy to try to ID the figures and give you the evidence you need to move this forward otherwise this is just going round in circles.

Work and family commitments are pretty massive for me right now so I really don't have the time to keep up to date with this thread. i've put the offer to help out there otherwise I'll just check in on the situation in a week or so.

Just one final thing. Identifying a loose figure on a MOC will prove he is guilty but it won't determine which MOCs are effected definitively. These MOCs have been circulating in thousands for many years and the quality of the seals and cards ( at least now) is exceptional in my opinion. So I doubt we will ever know this for sure.

Please drop me a PM or an email if you have any pics of recently purchased TT MOCs. I believe his site uses stock photos.

 

[Richard_H]

Just had a pm back from Robbie who doesn't have a lot to add. He confirms paying a lot of money to TT and trading/selling ugrades. He says he had suspicions but didn't think it possible until the 25k hit the headlines.
He may be the best lead to ask for photos of seals in the case?

 

[Joe]

Just had a pm back from Robbie who doesn't have a lot to add. He confirms paying a lot of money to TT and trading/selling ugrades. He says he had suspicions but didn't think it possible until the 25k hit the headlines.
He may be the best lead to ask for photos of seals in the case?

If Robbie has been supplying Toni with U graded figures I think it's important we know which figures.

 

[Richard_H]

There's a chance for Toni to prove his innocence. A group photo of Robbie's ugrades or receipts showing where they have gone.

 

[Joe]

There's a chance for Toni to prove his innocence. A group photo of Robbie's ugrades or receipts showing where they have gone.

Indeed. If Toni was able to prove where all of these mint figures and U grades are actually going it would really help his case. You'd think he would realise that and have done so already though..

 

[lee gray]

Maybe as a dealer Toni is running low on stock and needs figures for the future when the price is higher to keep in business....or maybe what everyone else says

Also judging by Toni reply to jason, he only seems to think its only affecting the forums, he doesnt seem to be looking at the bigger picture and the whole star wars collecting community

 

[edd_jedi]

The subject of buying U graded figures is an interesting one - they can't be cheap (£20 minimum?) so if he's only selling the Hoth Troopers etc for £40-£50 I don't see how it can be worth his while. The 3POs are pretty obvious, there have been thousands of baggies around for £5 or less for years.

Also according to most people U graded figures are unnecessary as it's easy enough to pick up mint graded/ungraded figures. So why is he not spending significantly less on those instead?

IMO the figures are a bit of a sticking point on this - we all know crappy figures can be found on cards, and AFA rarely grade even carded figures above an 85. If they were literally perfect when sealed, this would be a lot easier to prove.

 

[escapist]

Someone on RS posted this link to Vectis auctions: http://www.vectis.co.uk/Page/ViewSearchLots.aspx?Search=star+wars&Dir=2&id=0&ref=0&Start=60

A lot of familar figures that we've seen mentioned over the past 80 odd pages.... And some good closeups.

The fact these feature in with a lot of Palitoy cards that we have not previously mentioned in this thread could mean that the source was either a) a guy who had a lot of genuine Palitoy cards from back in the day, or b) a collector who bought a lot of Palitoy cards from Toni and other sources.

Though the pink dot C3PO makes an appearance... so I go with b....

http://www.vectis.co.uk/Page/ViewLot.aspx?LotId=507378

 

[itfciain]

Also according to most people U graded figures are unnecessary as it's easy enough to pick up mint graded/ungraded figures. So why is he not spending significantly less on those instead?

They are - but you also have to go through a lot of tat - as most new collectors find out with eBay - at least with graded figures you know what you are getting. In addition, I would say that if I was sealing figures onto cards then I would want to make sure that they were as minty as possible so as not to arouse any suspicion.

 

[edd_jedi]

I've just thought of something perhaps worth mentioning - I and other people have bought all kinds of figures from Toni direct through his website, yet for as long as I can remember the only figures he ever sells regularly on eBay are Hoth Troppers and C-3PO. The odd random figure and quite a few years ago lots of Palitoy Luke Bespin's, but rarely anything else. But we know for a fact he has sold dozens of the same German MOCs just from our own collections. So why never on eBay?