Resealed figure discovery debate - G.Kurtz Palitoy VC Jawa.

[Chico]

As one of the many on here who own Toy Toni MOC, i've been following this keenly over the last few days. I have 3 in my collection, all Mint German ESB GM. One was bought directly from Toni whilst the other two were UKG graded and bought through ebay, but almost certainly originally from Toni.

First i wanted to say that my single experience of dealing with Toni was good. After the order was made correspondence was slow but the item did arrive within an acceptable time frame, and was well packaged.

I would also like to say that i don't particularly care for JJ's approach, long ramblings or lack of evidence. To me it does feel like he his happy to jump on any 'crumb' of evidence forwarded by other collectors following his posts that happen to give any kind of weight to his claims.

But...

These 'crumbs' are adding up and they are being put forward on here by many of the most respectable SWFUK members. The list of inconsistencies doesn't look good but without trying to appear naive, none of the points raised are beyond explanation. But an explanation is what is needed and given the amount of money that members on here have put into his business, I would add to the calls for Toni to come on here and clear some of this up.

As others have commented, the rampant speculation on here is helping no one, and snippets of facts are being connected by fiction. I didn't question my original transaction with Toni but following all of this, it is all too easy to look back and start to speculate the delay in posting may be due to the MOC being made to order. And that is the trouble it's speculation at the moment without solid evidence. It might never be possible to clear this up.

Personally speaking, I love this hobby but idiots like Mark Poon, and this sudden uncertainty with MOCs might just be the end of my involvement (with carded figures at least). If this does prove to be the worst case scenario, and grading companies and some of the foremost collectors in the business have been fooled, what chance do the rest of us have?

 

[lee gray]

On the back of the fett cards, there are alot of heavier indents for the H style bubble on the back to the point you can feel it so alot of pressure must have been applied to them.

 

[Richard_H]

Toni update. I have emailed him twice in the last 24 hours asking for his response to the 2nd ebay account and him selling unused Palitoy cards in the rebelscum thread.
I got a reply this morning asking for details of where those posts where made in this thread, which I have passed on to him.

cheers Jason

Is he saying that he hasn't followed the thread!

 

[mr_palitoy]

Toni update. I have emailed him twice in the last 24 hours asking for his response to the 2nd ebay account and him selling unused Palitoy cards in the rebelscum thread.
I got a reply this morning asking for details of where those posts where made in this thread, which I have passed on to him.

cheers Jason

Is he saying that he hasn't followed the thread!

I havent seen him browsing this thread today. He may be doing it as guest though after JJ outed him the last time.



Jason

 

[jambobbyb]

Holy **** just spent the entire day reading this one, what a headfuck! Got to feel for the owners of any of these MOC's!

 

[Fishtalk]

So it's looking increasingly likely that Toy Toni has been running his own private Palitoy factory since the early nineties. If true then it's mass fraud over 20 years, involving many people and a LOT of money. There are consumer rights groups who specialise in this kind of thing, Watchdog for example. They will happily come to the aid of old ladies who have been ripped off £600 by dodgy plumbers, e.t.c, why not this? The potential amount of money involved could be staggering.
But, as everyone else is saying I fail to see how anything can be proved, and this could run another 50 pages with no sign of a resolution.

 

[edd_jedi]

Is he saying that he hasn't followed the thread!

No disrespect to Toni but I'm sure most will agree communication has never been his strong point. I've always had to wait days for answers to one line questions, and usually received one line answers in return. So it wouldn't surprise me at all if he hasn't read this biblical thread!

 

[edd_jedi]

Expanding on that, I'm sure people that have dealt with him for a long time will remember that he wouldn't take paypal payments until very recently, it was always cheques. I often thought that his slow responses and awkward payment methods must hinder his sales and that he'd sell far more stuff if he put in a bit more effort. But as with many suggestions in this thread, although just speculation his behaviour would explain a lot now.

 

[Dark Sith Lord]

Or perhaps as an hidden member :wink:

 

[lee gray]

Saying that though I remember Jim stevenson would only take cheques for years and years too, not even credit card

I do feel bad for the owners though, just incase as no matter what the outcome there will always be doubt now.

 

[mr_palitoy]

Got an email reply from Toni:-

"hi yes that sounds about right- despite there being several lists with large numbers of loose cards as far as I know only a handful actually turned up-they came my way and were bought by an American guy as in his post I don't remember which figures they were .Probably best to mention that Arthur Bailey died about 5-6 ago .Toni"

So:-

1) He's acknowledging that he sold the unused cards but he did not get them from Arthur
2) He says Arthur is no longer with us to answer questions, I presume Toni missed out years in 5-6 ago.

Jason

 

[**Delboy75**]

Well the way I see it is if Toni had these cardbacks he would be selling them as such today, as in most cases they would be worth more than the carded figure.
When I mentioned this before it was pointed out it would look odd if he suddenly started selling them now, but it has come to light that he has sold unused GM cardbacks in the past so no reason not to sell them now unless he genuinely only had those few?

Joiner quickly brushes the 'fake' fetts under the carpet and blames James for miss hearing him, now I know which one I would believe.

Maybe it was Joiner (and possibly Arthur) sealing them, as he states they were friends and Arthur was someone to look up to. They sold them onto Toni who may or may not of known? Hell maybe even the 3 of them were in it together. These were sold in the 90's when joiner was 'apparently' :wink: passing off many fakes (grey troopers/yak baggies,gold hat BBG,gold top r2)

Those hoth troopers with crappy bubbles look like (bad) attemps to master bubble sealing to me.
They are piss poor and any paid factory worker churning them out in that quantity wants shooting, add to that the palitoy fetts he was selling and I cant see how he keeps being overlooked in all of this.

Joiner is saying there were 25'000 items, be it carded or uncarded and he only ended up with 500 items mostly hoth troopers? Why would he buy so many hoth troopers?

Again all speculation, but as is 99% of this thread.

Something dodgy is going on its just knowing who to trust.

 

[**Delboy75**]

Got an email reply from Toni:-

"hi yes that sounds about right- despite there being several lists with large numbers of loose cards as far as I know only a handful actually turned up-they came my way and were bought by an American guy as in his post I don't remember which figures they were .Probably best to mention that Arthur Bailey died about 5-6 ago .Toni"

So:-

1) He's acknowledging that he sold the unused cards but he did not get them from Arthur
2) He says Arthur is no longer with us to answer questions, I presume Toni missed out years in 5-6 ago.

Jason

I heard from a VERY reliable source (who unfortunately wants no part of this thread), pretty much what Toni said, that the list contained unused cardbacks but they never materialised.

 

[escapist]

Well the way I see it is if Toni had these cardbacks he would be selling them as such today, as in most cases they would be worth more than the carded figure.
When I mentioned this before it was pointed out it would look odd if he suddenly started selling them now, but it has come to light that he has sold unused GM cardbacks in the past so no reason not to sell them now unless he genuinely only had those few?

His ebay feedback confirms three recent auctions on cardbacks from Feb 2013. The listing aren't up though so no idea whether they were used:

RARE CLIPPER ESB BESPIN GUARD AND IMPERIAL STORMTROOPER CARDBACKS (#251224110007)
RARE CLIPPER ESB BESPIN GUARD AND IMPERIAL STORMTROOPER CARDBACKS (#251225362036)
GERMAN GENERAL MILLS ESB DENGAR LEIA 4LOM C3PO CARDBACKS (#251224109995)

But yeah. I don't know what to think anymore.

 

[jimbody1]

I think I saw these while I was looking for cardbacks for a thread and they was used.

 

[Caswellbot]

Got an email reply from Toni:-

"hi yes that sounds about right- despite there being several lists with large numbers of loose cards as far as I know only a handful actually turned up-they came my way and were bought by an American guy as in his post I don't remember which figures they were .Probably best to mention that Arthur Bailey died about 5-6 ago .Toni"

So:-

1) He's acknowledging that he sold the unused cards but he did not get them from Arthur
2) He says Arthur is no longer with us to answer questions, I presume Toni missed out years in 5-6 ago.

Jason

I heard from a VERY reliable source (who unfortunately wants no part of this thread), pretty much what Toni said, that the list contained unused cardbacks but they never materialised.

I heard differently del from another very reliable source.

 

[escapist]

Well unfortunately, at this stage I think we have reached an impasse. Jason says one thing, Toni says the opposite and Arthur is no longer with us.

I don't think the truth will ever really come out. The list may evidence if any of the cards match up to the cards we know have been sold by Toni. But again it wouldn't prove anything.

 

[**Delboy75**]

Got an email reply from Toni:-

"hi yes that sounds about right- despite there being several lists with large numbers of loose cards as far as I know only a handful actually turned up-they came my way and were bought by an American guy as in his post I don't remember which figures they were .Probably best to mention that Arthur Bailey died about 5-6 ago .Toni"

So:-

1) He's acknowledging that he sold the unused cards but he did not get them from Arthur
2) He says Arthur is no longer with us to answer questions, I presume Toni missed out years in 5-6 ago.

Jason

I heard from a VERY reliable source (who unfortunately wants no part of this thread), pretty much what Toni said, that the list contained unused cardbacks but they never materialised.

I heard differently del from another very reliable source.

Thing is Chris i'm pretty sure its the same source.....just to confuse things even more :lol:

 

[Captainsolo1978]

Has Toni got photos of the Palitoy cases the figures he states hq bought from Arthur were in.

Seems without a good response no one will be buying these German Esb figures again.

 

[_Lee_]

So now we have a statement from Toni saying that he never had an unused cardbacks and a collector on RS claiming he bought 5 from him at a show in Atlantique City? Well something isn't right there, that's for sure.

That's not just a collector. That's Andy Loney from The Toy Cave. Andy has been a dealer for years and has a stellar rep. I even recall him selling some of these as far back as either C2 or C3. I almost bought one and remember asking him to try to get me a Biker Scout. We used to go to AC to the toy show twice a year. I have no doubt what he says is true, especially since he made the comment a few years ago.

John

Yup John,and that same unused Lando skiff AFA backer in my old focus (the one pictured in this thread)came from him.IIRC,he sold the last ones he kept (all AFA,d)from his purchase from TT.Im sure you will remember my limelight John as it somehow turned into a pathetic,racist load of rubbish-french toast etc???