Resealed figure discovery debate - G.Kurtz Palitoy VC Jawa.

[Richard_H]

Joe much of this has came about with discussion. I mentioned (theorised if you like) about Resealed bubbles pages ago but instantly dismissed as impossible and I shut up. Now look where we are. It is good to debate, theorise and discuss this. This is bigger than all of the forums put together. Heck it's even bigger than SW collecting in general.

However,
I do think there should be a thread with facts/requests for more info etc that can perhaps only be added to by mods but this thread isn't it.

 

[ace]

It's been a busy few days on the forums it seems, I've been trying to catch up all morning/afternoon.

It feels very much like there are a few people on the boards that are trying to get to the bottom of this but with 3 threads on 3 different forums (plus all the emails/PM's etc) the information and the posts are a little scattered. I think we can all agree that it's ultimately going to take longer to put everything together if an important post on RS is quoted on TIG then a couple of days later it finally pops up on here, so it's going to prove counter productive and we don't want important posts being lost.

I fully understand that everyone in the community needs to know that this investigation is happening and that Toni may well have committed the biggest scam in our hobby's history but I really do think we should stop with the theories, bickering, useless happy happy joy joy stuff and most importantly all the cross forum posting (with regard to factual information and observations).

Many pages back Oli tried to get people to send him close up pictures of carded figures bought recently from Toni as he has pictures saved of all the loose figure auctions Toni won on ebay with his second account. Sadly he had no response at all. Think about it - if we can prove a loose figure Toni bought on ebay was then sold on a card as factory sealed it would be game over. Get on it guys and try to help those offering their free time to the community in order to solve this.

I've read Toni's reply to Jason just now and it gives me little hope that this is all untrue, it seemed very much the reply of a very scared individual and not the reply you would expect from an innocent person. So, with him refusing to come to the forum and all the other pieces of evidence we can all see it's not looking good.

A special request from me then: All those that have factual information or can shed some light on this with indisputable facts (not theories) can you please post here? I know some people are probably holding back for whatever reason and obviously there are people that don't want to get involved too but if that's the case then pass your info on to others who can add it to this thread.

very good post Joe

the facts and all the evidence we need is out there in the public domain any help you can give to Oli is the best chance to close done any doubt 100% then when we have 100% then maybe Toni will talk to us , then we can start to do damaged control on whats affected and what is not.

good job everyone

 

[Joe]

Yep it has been mentioned a few times and now is probably the right time to start that investigation thread where the only posts allowed must be related to the investigation and to getting to the bottom of the card/bubble and figure stuff.

We already have the information Mattias has provided us about the cards and the printing errors as well as a bunch of pictures from people of carded figures but I must admit I am getting a bit lost in all the bubble stuff so maybe if we start that thread someone can help out and monitor that side of things? Spoons perhaps? You seem to be following it better than I am!

I'll ask Oli if he can also post up pictures of all of Toni's ebay loose buys in that thread and maybe with some visual reference on the forums people will come forward and say "hey that loose figure looks like the one on the card I just bought".

I'll set one up later on if everyone agrees that's the best idea?

 

[Dark Sith Lord]

Sounds like a great idea to me Joe as i too I am struggling to follow all this about bubble "01" 02 and O3 :lol:

 

[edd_jedi]

I completely agree that continued discussion is essential. Yes not all of it is constructive, but 50 pages ago people were laughing off my suggestion that an original card and bubble could be manipulated to look like a genuine MOC, or that there were tell-tale signs such as printing errors or random bubble/COO combinations.

 

[Richard_H]

Makes sense. Now, is there any reason why the ebay buying account is not publicly known? A lot of research can be done on that.

 

[Joe]

Joe much of this has came about with discussion. I mentioned (theorised if you like) about Resealed bubbles pages ago but instantly dismissed as impossible and I shut up. Now look where we are. It is good to debate, theorise and discuss this. This is bigger than all of the forums put together. Heck it's even bigger than SW collecting in general.

However,
I do think there should be a thread with facts/requests for more info etc that can perhaps only be added to by mods but this thread isn't it.

Oh I definitely agree it's helped get us this far (and that's exactly why we've let the thread run) but with all the forums discussing this now I think we are definitely at a point where pics + facts need to be collated in one place and we can then step off the theory train for a while and try to come up with some concrete evidence this actually all took place.

Definitely no harm in thinking outside the box on this one and trying to make sense of it but we should probably keep facts and theories separate for a while and concentrate on sorting this mess out.

I feel if Toni were ever going to reply to address concerns he may feel better doing it in a thread where he can look at the evidence presented in picture form instead of having to trawl through an 80+ page thread and pick out posts to reply to. Although, at this point I don't think Toni will ever come back to reply so best we just put things together for the community.

 

[ace]

Yep it has been mentioned a few times and now is probably the right time to start that investigation thread where the only posts allowed must be related to the investigation and to getting to the bottom of the card/bubble and figure stuff.

We already have the information Mattias has provided us about the cards and the printing errors as well as a bunch of pictures from people of carded figures but I must admit I am getting a bit lost in all the bubble stuff so maybe if we start that thread someone can help out and monitor that side of things? Spoons perhaps? You seem to be following it better than I am!

I'll ask Oli if he can also post up pictures of all of Toni's ebay loose buys in that thread and maybe with some visual reference on the forums people will come forward and say "hey that loose figure looks like the one on the card I just bought".

I'll set one up later on if everyone agrees that's the best idea?

thinking about this more i also agree to start up a new tread maybe called "ongoing investigation" "cardgate" ? where the only things that are put in there are facts now , as anyone new on here reading 87 pages of stuff at the beginning were we could not even agree to being able to put a bubble on a card he been well and truly debarckeld and is now irrelevant.

i also feel we need the best people in there fealds on here helping with facts


we need the people that understand the cards like jason and more like him

we need the people that understand the figures and the copyright on the legs as i think thats an even bigger smoking gun , if people know that these late figures cannot be on ESB cards we need to know what ?

and we need to have people that also understand bubble also


these people are very important

then if we need to gather up photos of any thing that has come from toni over the years ?

one thing i do not know this when something is graded dose it have a indervigel grading number from the graders ? do they keep a record of how paid for the grading ? do they have records if Toni has gone direct to them to get something graded him self ? sorry i just do not know how this worked .

i also think its time that some of these grading companies come on here to help us where ever they can , its not there fault in any way they have been caught out like many collectors so i do not think anyone can or should blame then , but we do need help to get totally to the bottom of this matter.

the figures i have here have been photographed , they are available for anyone that needs to see them or needs any more images from them , these are early figures from Toni and i want to find some more from this time so there is a another sores of these early trial attempts of putting the bubbles on the card .

we are really getting somewhere here now i think we can all see , we still need theories and ideas as that has got us where we are right now , so lets keep gathering up stuff i am shore more info is out there this has been going on 20 odd year lets find it .

so i agree with putting up a new thread if everyone else agrees ?

jason

 

[yeah-sus]

About pictures of recently bought toni mocs,have somebody talked to the guys behind the site sw valuable check or something like that?
They scan ebay every month and should have 1000's of moc pictures in their archive
Found the link
http://chivecastmarketwatch.wordpress.com/

 

[ace]

there has been some of us living in this tread a little more than others and understand more of the facts than others

do you think it would be best to put together the following

a list of facts

then a list of not yet proven theories that we be leave to be the truth

and then just put photos and visual evidence


maybe this should be put together and ran past the 4 or 5 key people that have found out and helped out the most on here first before going live so we all agree its correct ?

there is a lot of people now watching these thread and expecting us to get this right and get the facts right also .

whats everyones thoughts ?

j

 

[itfciain]

i also think its time that some of these grading companies come on here to help us where ever they can , its not there fault in any way they have been caught out like many collectors so i do not think anyone can or should blame then , but we do need help to get totally to the bottom of this matter.

I know that Grant has spoken with Steve at UKG and he is obviously worried about the situation - I think it would be interesting to hear from him and/or AFA but don't think they will break cover until some concrete proof is found

 

[lee gray]

Just out of interest as must have missed it, how did jasons friend acquire all of these attempted heat sealed samples, was he going through tonis bin or was toni stupid enough to sell them like that when considering he had 25000 cards he could have just ripped the figure off and tried again.

 

[_Lee_]

Does anybody know if Robbie/Galactables has wind of this yet? He has always had a steady flow of Toni's MOCs going through his hands. I seem to remember he's not the kind of guy that's afraid to turn up at your door if you rip him off!

Edd,i have spoken to Robbie on the phone.He is suffering through this as much as the next person.He wants to come here to say a few things about the situation,but is a bit weary because of the usual 'U' grade fiasco.He sent Toni an email and i saw the reply.If Robbie chooses to divulge that himself,then ill let him do the talking.

Also Rob seems to think that some being deemed as forged bv Toni,could well be legit.Trust me,he would know as loads have passed his hands.He also has very good info about Toni and 'U' grades.

Lets just try to put the 'U' grading digs and comments to one side,and see what Robbie has to say.I can assure you that you will be happy you did.Robbie knows a lot about this situation and has been thinking about it a lot,so instead of harsh,uncalled for comments let talk some sense,and get a bit more information on our sides.

Lee

 

[edd_jedi]

Just out of interest as must have missed it, how did jasons friend acquire all of these attempted heat sealed samples, was he going through tonis bin or was toni stupid enough to sell them like that when considering he had 25000 cards he could have just ripped the figure off and tried again.

I believe the source of them is still under scrutiny and apparently this is how they were sold back in the early 90s as the prices were a lot lower and people were less condition sensitive. So that is not confirmed yet.

However what they do confirm is that unused cardbacks and bubbles existed, and somebody was trying to put them together. That is the golden goose so far IMO - something nobody before now thought possible.

 

[edd_jedi]

Edd,i have spoken to Robbie on the phone.He is suffering through this as much as the next person.He wants to come here to say a few things about the situation,but is a bit weary because of the usual 'U' grade fiasco.He sent Toni an email and i saw the reply.If Robbie chooses to divulge that himself,then ill let him do the talking.

Also Rob seems to think that some being deemed as forged bv Toni,could well be legit.Trust me,he would know as loads have passed his hands.He also has very good info about Toni and 'U' grades.

Lets just try to put the 'U' grading digs and comments to one side,and see what Robbie has to say.I can assure you that you will be happy you did.Robbie knows a lot about this situation and has been thinking about it a lot,so instead of harsh,uncalled for comments let talk some sense,and get a bit more information on our sides.

Lee

That would be great Lee. My post was in no way a dig at Robbie, I've bought from him several times over the years and personally I have nothing against him, he seems a stand up guy apart from the U grading which as you say is subjective.

 

[itfciain]

Does anybody know if Robbie/Galactables has wind of this yet? He has always had a steady flow of Toni's MOCs going through his hands. I seem to remember he's not the kind of guy that's afraid to turn up at your door if you rip him off!

Edd,i have spoken to Robbie on the phone.He is suffering through this as much as the next person.He wants to come here to say a few things about the situation,but is a bit weary because of the usual 'U' grade fiasco.He sent Toni an email and i saw the reply.If Robbie chooses to divulge that himself,then ill let him do the talking.

Also Rob seems to think that some being deemed as forged bv Toni,could well be legit.Trust me,he would know as loads have passed his hands.He also has very good info about Toni and 'U' grades.

Lets just try to put the 'U' grading digs and comments to one side,and see what Robbie has to say.I can assure you that you will be happy you did.Robbie knows a lot about this situation and has been thinking about it a lot,so instead of harsh,uncalled for comments let talk some sense,and get a bit more information on our sides.

Lee

Lee - from a U-Grading point of view then this whole sorry saga could have one bright spot - and that is that U-grades will no longer be applicable. How can AFA state with any certainty that something has be 'untouched' when they have graded resealed figures. In fact it is actually possible that an item has been U-graded, then purchased by Toni - resealed onto a card only for that card to have been sent in for U-grading !!

I think a lot of people would be very interested to hear what Robbie has to say and hope that he comes on here to give us his opinions

 

[Richard_H]

I agree. I've pmd Robbie in the hope that he comes forward. If he does then can he be given a chance to say what he has to say. Put other issues aside for now.

 

[Joe]

I would very much like to echo Lee, Edd and Rich on this and say that if Robbie has important information regarding Toni and his figures (even if it's in Toni's favour) then he should be welcomed to the forum to discuss it. If anyone wants to talk U grades there are dedicated U grading threads on the forum to use.

 

[Dark Sith Lord]

I agree. Everyone should come together for this and otherwise issues should be left at the door,

Would love Robbie to post his view on this fiasco

 

[lee gray]

The very first fett I purchased off Toni, the card had a huge crease in it as I asked him for a carded fett, never mentioned condition, after that I would always mention condition i wanted first as to not get a creased card again, this was very early 90s and apart from the crease it looked great.

When I got my first light blue fett from him much later around 1999 as I was unsure of it I contacted someone at toysrgus, pretty sure it was Chris and he confirmed he knew of the variation.

I remember at the time asking Toni if he had a fett with H bubble and he told me the only H bubble one he had was the light blue variation which was about 45 pound more, so if indeed he was sealing bubbles, then he must have done it all before 1999 or would have used a H bubble for the regular Fett instead of saying he had sold out of them, yet has sold other mint figures since with H bubble so either pre 1999 or genuine

Some of his trilogos are amazing too yet i once traded him a recarded yak face which he sold on as a recarded yak face instead of taking fiure from recard and putting it on a fresh backer.

Still dont know what to believe though.

 

[olisuds]

It's been a busy few days on the forums it seems, I've been trying to catch up all morning/afternoon.

It feels very much like there are a few people on the boards that are trying to get to the bottom of this but with 3 threads on 3 different forums (plus all the emails/PM's etc) the information and the posts are a little scattered. I think we can all agree that it's ultimately going to take longer to put everything together if an important post on RS is quoted on TIG then a couple of days later it finally pops up on here, so it's going to prove counter productive and we don't want important posts being lost.

I fully understand that everyone in the community needs to know that this investigation is happening and that Toni may well have committed the biggest scam in our hobby's history but I really do think we should stop with the theories, bickering, useless happy happy joy joy stuff and most importantly all the cross forum posting (with regard to factual information and observations).

Many pages back Oli tried to get people to send him close up pictures of carded figures bought recently from Toni as he has pictures saved of all the loose figure auctions Toni won on ebay with his second account. Sadly he had no response at all. Think about it - if we can prove a loose figure Toni bought on ebay was then sold on a card as factory sealed it would be game over. Get on it guys and try to help those offering their free time to the community in order to solve this.

I've read Toni's reply to Jason just now and it gives me little hope that this is all untrue, it seemed very much the reply of a very scared individual and not the reply you would expect from an innocent person. So, with him refusing to come to the forum and all the other pieces of evidence we can all see it's not looking good.

A special request from me then: All those that have factual information or can shed some light on this with indisputable facts (not theories) can you please post here? I know some people are probably holding back for whatever reason and obviously there are people that don't want to get involved too but if that's the case then pass your info on to others who can add it to this thread.

Thanks Joe... I think

The seals and cards on Toni's MOCs are exceptionally good so whilst there are a lot of indicators that strongly suggest Toni has been seeling his own MOCs, most of it is circumstantial IMO. If we manage to ID one the loose figures he has bought on a MOC he has sold then we have solid evidence and Toni will have been caught with the smoking gun.

I have downloaded the pictures of the loose figures he has bought in the last month from his second private account and they are very detailed macro shots. I'm working on getting pictures from further back but I don't know if I am able. (any help would be appreciated with this). If anyone is able to send me pictures of MOCs Toni has sold in the last month I am happy to try to ID the figures and give you the evidence you need to move this forward otherwise this is just going round in circles.

Work and family commitments are pretty massive for me right now so I really don't have the time to keep up to date with this thread. i've put the offer to help out there otherwise I'll just check in on the situation in a week or so.

Just one final thing. Identifying a loose figure on a MOC will prove he is guilty but it won't determine which MOCs are effected definitively. These MOCs have been circulating in thousands for many years and the quality of the seals and cards ( at least now) is exceptional in my opinion. So I doubt we will ever know this for sure.

Please drop me a PM or an email if you have any pics of recently purchased TT MOCs. I believe his site uses stock photos.

 

[Richard_H]

Just had a pm back from Robbie who doesn't have a lot to add. He confirms paying a lot of money to TT and trading/selling ugrades. He says he had suspicions but didn't think it possible until the 25k hit the headlines.
He may be the best lead to ask for photos of seals in the case?

 

[Joe]

Just had a pm back from Robbie who doesn't have a lot to add. He confirms paying a lot of money to TT and trading/selling ugrades. He says he had suspicions but didn't think it possible until the 25k hit the headlines.
He may be the best lead to ask for photos of seals in the case?

If Robbie has been supplying Toni with U graded figures I think it's important we know which figures.

 

[Richard_H]

There's a chance for Toni to prove his innocence. A group photo of Robbie's ugrades or receipts showing where they have gone.

 

[Joe]

There's a chance for Toni to prove his innocence. A group photo of Robbie's ugrades or receipts showing where they have gone.

Indeed. If Toni was able to prove where all of these mint figures and U grades are actually going it would really help his case. You'd think he would realise that and have done so already though..

 

[lee gray]

Maybe as a dealer Toni is running low on stock and needs figures for the future when the price is higher to keep in business....or maybe what everyone else says

Also judging by Toni reply to jason, he only seems to think its only affecting the forums, he doesnt seem to be looking at the bigger picture and the whole star wars collecting community

 

[edd_jedi]

The subject of buying U graded figures is an interesting one - they can't be cheap (£20 minimum?) so if he's only selling the Hoth Troopers etc for £40-£50 I don't see how it can be worth his while. The 3POs are pretty obvious, there have been thousands of baggies around for £5 or less for years.

Also according to most people U graded figures are unnecessary as it's easy enough to pick up mint graded/ungraded figures. So why is he not spending significantly less on those instead?

IMO the figures are a bit of a sticking point on this - we all know crappy figures can be found on cards, and AFA rarely grade even carded figures above an 85. If they were literally perfect when sealed, this would be a lot easier to prove.

 

[escapist]

Someone on RS posted this link to Vectis auctions: http://www.vectis.co.uk/Page/ViewSearchLots.aspx?Search=star+wars&Dir=2&id=0&ref=0&Start=60

A lot of familar figures that we've seen mentioned over the past 80 odd pages.... And some good closeups.

The fact these feature in with a lot of Palitoy cards that we have not previously mentioned in this thread could mean that the source was either a) a guy who had a lot of genuine Palitoy cards from back in the day, or b) a collector who bought a lot of Palitoy cards from Toni and other sources.

Though the pink dot C3PO makes an appearance... so I go with b....

http://www.vectis.co.uk/Page/ViewLot.aspx?LotId=507378

 

[itfciain]

Also according to most people U graded figures are unnecessary as it's easy enough to pick up mint graded/ungraded figures. So why is he not spending significantly less on those instead?

They are - but you also have to go through a lot of tat - as most new collectors find out with eBay - at least with graded figures you know what you are getting. In addition, I would say that if I was sealing figures onto cards then I would want to make sure that they were as minty as possible so as not to arouse any suspicion.

 

[edd_jedi]

I've just thought of something perhaps worth mentioning - I and other people have bought all kinds of figures from Toni direct through his website, yet for as long as I can remember the only figures he ever sells regularly on eBay are Hoth Troppers and C-3PO. The odd random figure and quite a few years ago lots of Palitoy Luke Bespin's, but rarely anything else. But we know for a fact he has sold dozens of the same German MOCs just from our own collections. So why never on eBay?