Resealed figure discovery debate - G.Kurtz Palitoy VC Jawa.

[mr_palitoy]

To answer some points raised at me while I was out.

I did look a JJ's Palitoy VCJ, it looks fine. No SW cards are on the list of figures/characters in question.

Delboy75 doubted Mattias's findings because a pink dot is not enough to bin a print run. Read his post again, there are other print errors that are less easy to identify that would have caused the run to fail QC.

cheers Jason

 

[mr_palitoy]

Here's my email to Toni this morning:-

=========================

Hi Toni, just back from FF4 Retro star wars collecting show in Fordingbridge this weekend.

It'll come as no surprise that you were the hot topic of the weekend.

Your silence on this matter is deafening. And damning.

You lack of response about the 2nd ebay account. Which you have changed the name of 30 odd times. And have made the buying history private in the last few days.

Lots of stories from collectors buying from you to find stuff is out of stock and then suddenly back in stock from other sources a week or two later.

There are printing faults on some of the unused cardbacks that link the unused cardbacks which you have sold with the large number of MOCs you have been selling over the years.

Examples of your very early attempts at sealing cards were seen shown at the show. These are obvious reseals and show that you took a bit of time to improve the sealing technique.

Are you using a T-shirt press or similar? Tests have been made with bubbles and cardbacks that produce the same kind of seals that your MOCs show.

This issue isn't going to go away. There are star wars collectors in Brighton who visit your stall. There are star wars collectors who also collect the tin robots you sell through
your zoomer toys website. All of your businesses are going to be discredited and suffer because of this.

I have bought 3 cards from you over the years, I also have an AFA 90 Palitoy ESB/ROTJ focus that has a dozen more of your cards in it that was worth £3-4k before this happened.

Collectors on the forum are talking about calling in the fraud squad. Conservative estimates suggest you have defrauded the collecting community of over half a million pounds over the years.
This makes you the biggest fraud in star wars vintage collecting by a long way.

You have irrevocably damaged European and Palitoy MOC collecting forever. It will never be the same again.

Have you no sense of guilt or remorse for what you have done?

Jason

==========================================

cheer Jason

 

[mr_palitoy]

And Toni's reply:-

"hi I am indeed sorry about what is happening- but on the forums anything I say can be be misunderstood or manipulated . I am not looking at the forums and watching every post .However I have seen some relating to Mr Joiner having 700 fetts and 700 hoth troopers if this was the case it seems clear that these items were around and circulating at the time. The source or sources of the figures Mr Joiner has mentioned is unknown as Mr Bailey must have been getting them from somewhere and its also far from clear what other people were getting the figures he was getting from those sources as well. If Mr Joiner had 1400 of these figures and was selling them at shows as was posted then it follows that various figures with bubble anomalies were in circulation at the time. To say these came from me is wrong."

Jason

 

[itfciain]

Well that is a pretty damning reply - no denial of any of the points that you raised at all - just a load of mumbling about Jason Joiner

 

[_Lee_]

**** Fett and the Hoth Troopers,what about the rest?

 

[Vernon]

My Hothtrooper again

An interesting read.
Here's my upside down Hoth Trooper.
No pin holes - but it does have an '03' bubble.

This card has always look off to me & I have no idea how it got through QC.

AND THATS THE ONES

yep and i know that came from me also i can prove that also

you see the card has a line of dust or dirt film going from top to bottom level with the bubble well thats because i have 500 of them and i could store them properly in my mums house back then so my loft had my personal collation in it and at one end in the top of the eves i stacked them one by one locking them tight next to the bubble next to the next one this meant that the only part of the card exposed dust was the part above the bubble over the years dust and crap came in from a loft vent creating a bit of grime in the surface so thats why you have that line on that card my friend it was in my loft for around 8 years


jason

Ive added a couple more photos

 

[Frunkstar]

Not read a lot of this thread TBH but can I just ask a question as my paranoid side is now starting to kick in, did any of these suspected faked cards come with a waffle pattern?, sorry if this has been covered 50 times, but its 80 pages to sift through :shock:

 

[JuniorChubb]

Should have kept up from the beginning Frank. :lol:

Go directly to page 1 and do not collect £200 when you pass Go! :wink:

BTW, no waffle patterns.

 

[Chico]

Thanks for sharing the e-mails Jason.

The scale of this makes it incredibly sad and I really feel for those that have invested more heavily than myself in the affected cards.

Hopefully any remaining pieces of the jigsaw will come out sooner rather than later and we can start to figure out which way is up.

 

[**Delboy75**]

To answer some points raised at me while I was out.

I did look a JJ's Palitoy VCJ, it looks fine. No SW cards are on the list of figures/characters in question.

Delboy75 doubted Mattias's findings because a pink dot is not enough to bin a print run. Read his post again, there are other print errors that are less easy to identify that would have caused the run to fail QC.

cheers Jason

No Jason, Mattias's findings are spot on, my point was a single 'spot' would not be enough to bin the run. It would take more than that, and Mattias has found enough wrong with the C3PO's to have them pulled.

My point is if these are rejected cards there will be more than a tiny ink mark error on them, so I'm sure if you guys compare shop ones to Toni's there will be enough differences between them to confirm Mattias's findings are spot on.

So no I did not doubt His findings at all, I was pointing out as someone in the industry that company's do not just chuck stuff out for teeny teeny defects. If these cards are rejects I guarantee there are other reasons than that tiny pink ink spot.

Someone mentioned a red blob on the reverse of the card by chewie, yes this is a defect but as someone who worked in QA for 15 years and the print industry for almost 7 years I would not expect a whole batch to be pulled for this one defect. There must be other things wrong with them, just like with the c3po.

I honestly think its case solved. Toni's defence is pathetic, it's just a case of finding out which cards are rejects and who was/is involved.

 

[tiefighterboy]

I think Modern Sealed would be the correct term...if we are looking for one.

 

[**Delboy75**]

Thinking about it, I had a GM At At driver that came from Jim that he bought from Toni and the whole back of the card was blurred. I often wondered how the hell it got through QA.
Also some of Toni's GM cards have really bad flecking, again this would be a reason to pull them.

 

[ace]

And Toni's reply:-

" .However I have seen some relating to Mr Joiner having 700 fetts and 700 hoth troopers if this was the case it seems clear that these items were around and circulating at the time.

it was 500 of each not 700

no there were never in circulation at the time or sins the only people i have ever seen them with are Arthur where i bought mine from and You Toni after Arthur told me he sold them to you, so no i have never seen any one with quantities than you and Arthur.

The source or sources of the figures Mr Joiner has mentioned is unknown as Mr Bailey must have been getting them from somewhere and its also far from clear what other people were getting the figures he was getting from those sources as well.

where Arthur got this package of cards and figures and bubbles and carded figures dose not matter in any way what so ever Toni.

Arthur bought them then in the end you ended up with them, apart from the 500 fetts and 500 tropers that i bought before Arthur said he sold them to you Toni there has never been any other sores for these figures.

Toni you have been cough out as most of the cards seem to be rejects, withdrawn or retires cards , something you did not know when you started putting the cards together and you could not know you would get cough out in this way 15 years ago as noone analysed figures like they do today did they Toni if it was on a card that was it really back then , but its happened and your mistakes are all over the place now Toni and you cannot go back in time to hid this evidence.

If Mr Joiner had 1400 of these figures and was selling them at shows as was posted then it follows that various figures with bubble anomalies were in circulation at the time. To say these came from me is wrong."
Jason

Toni i can account for where i sold all my Fett apart from 46 of them and the troopers were split to the wind but that the only figures i had and what is out there apart from the figures you have been selling for the last few decades, denying this is not going wash with anyone Toni .

You know i have not got any issues with you up till this week, and i am sorry i was the whistle blower Toni , but you must have none this was coming for the last 5 years , these collectors are s meticulous and go into so much detail this has been on the books for years it was just a matter of time.

Toni really mate its time to end this and show people that you are at least sorry and help them and own up and then help them work out what figures are affected , this will help many collects at least stop some of the damage you have done to the hobby.

Toni you were also a collector just stop and think mate what it would be like if it was you on the other end of this, its time do the decent thing now, you do know now this is NEVER GOING AWAY not now so its time to make it easy on everyone and maybe people will think a little better of you for coming clean

Toni come on here and talk to them, it is going to be hard but its the only and right way mate.

this is meant sincerely Toni

jason

 

[tiefighterboy]

overkill.

 

[mr_palitoy]

To answer some points raised at me while I was out.

I did look a JJ's Palitoy VCJ, it looks fine. No SW cards are on the list of figures/characters in question.

Delboy75 doubted Mattias's findings because a pink dot is not enough to bin a print run. Read his post again, there are other print errors that are less easy to identify that would have caused the run to fail QC.

cheers Jason

No Jason, Mattias's findings are spot on, my point was a single 'spot' would not be enough to bin the run. It would take more than that, and Mattias has found enough wrong with the C3PO's to have them pulled.

My point is if these are rejected cards there will be more than a tiny ink mark error on them, so I'm sure if you guys compare shop ones to Toni's there will be enough differences between them to confirm Mattias's findings are spot on.

So no I did not doubt His findings at all, I was pointing out as someone in the industry that company's do not just chuck stuff out for teeny teeny defects. If these cards are rejects I guarantee there are other reasons than that tiny pink ink spot.

Someone mentioned a red blob on the reverse of the card by chewie, yes this is a defect but as someone who worked in QA for 15 years and the print industry for almost 7 years I would not expect a whole batch to be pulled for this one defect. There must be other things wrong with them, just like with the c3po.

I honestly think its case solved. Toni's defence is pathetic, it's just a case of finding out which cards are rejects and who was/is involved.

Cool, just a misunderstanding then, we're all in agreement on the work Mattias has done.

I saw a Boba Fett at FF4 from a box of early Toni's that had a massive colour shift/misprint on it.

I think all of the unused cards are print errors that failed QC in some way. The German ones with English Text in the back failed because they were not deemed
suitable for the German market and the text was removed (not before some of that run made it out to market though).

cheers Jason

 

[ace]

I think Modern Sealed would be the correct term...if we are looking for one.

that dose say what it is in the tin ?

i agree

Modern Sealed

M/S ?

 

[**Delboy75**]

Yes mate, I agree they are most likely all rejects.
I bet on some if we had a non Toni sourced card and put it next to a Toni one, Toni's would have issues.
There may even be some serious colour differences, but as most of these moc's have come from Toni its now obvious genuine GM cards are quite rare, so it may be tricky to get side by side shots.

 

[mr_palitoy]

Yes mate, I agree they are most likely all rejects.
I bet on some if we had a non Toni sourced card and put it next to a Toni one, Toni's would have issues.
There may even be some serious colour differences, but as most of these moc's have come from Toni its now obvious genuine GM cards are quite rare, so it may be tricky to get side by side shots.

I think the GM cards failed because of the English text on the back predominately, though some may also have print/colour errors on them like the Palitoy cards.
Not sure you need side by side comparison to spot the printing errors.

The seals are also easier spot after you have seen a lot of examples. Looking at my AFA 90 Palitoy focus now, I can see issues with them.

I'm staggered that AFA have not noted/spotted this and gave them all 90s.

cheers Jason

 

[Yak]

I think Modern Sealed would be the correct term...if we are looking for one.

that dose say what it is in the tin ?

i agree

Modern Sealed

M/S ?

Modern Sealed with any old random figure variant that he could buy cheap with a U grade!?

MSRFV - Modern Sealed with Random Figure Variant.

 

[Grant_C]

Examples of your very early attempts at sealing cards were seen shown at the show. These are obvious reseals and show that you took a bit of time to improve the sealing technique.

Are you using a T-shirt press or similar? Tests have been made with bubbles and cardbacks that produce the same kind of seals that your MOCs show.

Collectors on the forum are talking about calling in the fraud squad. Conservative estimates suggest you have defrauded the collecting community of over half a million pounds over the years.
This makes you the biggest fraud in star wars vintage collecting by a long way.

You have irrevocably damaged European and Palitoy MOC collecting forever. It will never be the same again.

Have you no sense of guilt or remorse for what you have done?

WTF!!!!

Jason- we have NO PROOF! ******* Zero Proof!

You can go around accusing people of mass fraud and that collectors can come to your market.

Its BS like this that will unravel everything that is being done. He calls the police now and makes out he his being harassed by a cult of ******* jealous toy collectors you can say goodbye to any resolution to this issue.

Please take a chill pill and wait till we have all the evidence we need. :wink:

 

[Grant_C]

Does anybody know if AFA have acknowledged this yet? There is now 100% concrete proof that at least some of these in circulation are fake.

AFA/UKG need to give a united front on this. They should be in here, driving this investigation.

They will need to do something with all the Tonis (both ungraded and graded) which are now winging their way for grading/authentication.

(And figure out what to do about the ones that they have already graded)



Jason

AFA and UKG are getting these printed.

You aren't gonna see them within 100 miles of any of this carnage. Anything graded to date will stay graded, they'll be much more careful grading anything at all on the 'at risk' list in future and life will go on for them.

They can't do anything else (if they want any reputation at the end of this mess).

I can assure you that UKG are proactive in getting to the bottom of this issue. They are not obligated to post their findings but I am sure they are waiting for real proof to be uncovered.

 

[M4K3R1]

An interesting read.
Here's my upside down Hoth Trooper.
No pin holes - but it does have an '03' bubble.

This card has always look off to me & I have no idea how it got through QC.

AND THATS THE ONES

yep and i know that came from me also i can prove that also

you see the card has a line of dust or dirt film going from top to bottom level with the bubble well thats because i have 500 of them and i could store them properly in my mums house back then so my loft had my personal collation in it and at one end in the top of the eves i stacked them one by one locking them tight next to the bubble next to the next one this meant that the only part of the card exposed dust was the part above the bubble over the years dust and crap came in from a loft vent creating a bit of grime in the surface so thats why you have that line on that card my friend it was in my loft for around 8 years

the next part of the story was

i shipped to Bruce Zolkan in florida of marz distribution i think he had another name also back then ? 5000 figures he has a auction and most of the Hoth Troopers was sold in florida

Bruce was an old friend and ran the Florida FX show with Mike Hurtz both Mike and Bruce will vouch for me selling off these troopers in florida

the last of my hoth trooers was sold through my stores over here over the years and i think the last ones may have been sold on ebay by a guy called Mark Carter that sold off all the old wherehouse stock i had stored for years when he clears all the star wars stationary we have stored , this was all sold to a big star wars trader in the US and he keeps nocking that stuff out to this day i think ?

these were the last to be sold off anyway around two years ago by this Mark , he offered to clear that stuff for me for 50% so it cleared out the place including the rats


thats that one out the way then , that for putting up that photo

jason

correct me if im wrong, you admit to knowing these are fakes yet you sold 500 of them.
am i reading this wrong

 

[Stargeezer]

Wow just finished reading the last 6-7 pages...

First of all, i think Matthias findings are spot on and the shifted layer surely would cause this print to fail at QC inspection.

Grant, you say there is no proof, but lets face it, the evidence is startting to stack up against tony, and i think if you combine it all, you have lots of proof you might not think its conclusive, but the facts are there allready.

Jason, i think your mail to Toni was straight on and looking for answers, to wich you recieved nothing but some mumbling about Jason and Arthur....

Why fear of getting shredded or not explain the second eBay account and why its changed name 30 times and went private just recently...

Simple, because he doesn't have a good explanation and he's doesn't want to tell the truth. People are catching up behind his ass, and typical scammer thing is to hade and be quiet, and then hope this all blows over. Guess, soon will follow a fake death aswell...

 

[Grant_C]

Dennis- all 'evidence' is circumstantial based.

Its not going to hold up.

I agree its not looking at all good for Toytoni, but we have heard 95% of a case from the prosecution without any smoking gun and the defence has yet to take the stand.

The recent accusations are based on cards from 20 years ago. According to AFA/UKG and collectors- until 2 weeks ago his MOCs where perfect.

I feel that the options going forward are limited as we can defiantly say that 'Toytoni has been sealing vintage figures and bubbles to vintage cards'.

To prove there has been fraud- our options are limited.

 

[Grant_C]

I guess the community must decide on how far they want to take this.

It could all end here, no one buys from toytoni, palitoy rotj, and GM 45's and maybe a few others are not to be trusted on seals.

We hopefully get a list from Joiner, and Paul can get the name of the collector that got those factory fresh cards and link it back to toni.

UKG and AFA get tarnished and that be it.

Or we could take it further and get professional advice on this.

I think we can all be proud of our little detective work so far, but there are people who get paid for this who have better resources.

If this is to take the next step- it will be a massive ball ache to everyone involved.

 

[edd_jedi]

I agree with Grant that there is no concrete proof that Toni has been doing the sealing. There is however proof from those dodgy FF figures that there were unused card backs of at least those particular figures that somebody was trying to seal. So we at least know any of those same figures are suspect. The rest of our suspicions are as yet unconfirmed, although likely.

By the way I've seen a few people mention tax - I would hazard a guess that Toni does this all above board, it's not easy to hide that kind of revenue.

 

[itfciain]

Examples of your very early attempts at sealing cards were seen shown at the show. These are obvious reseals and show that you took a bit of time to improve the sealing technique.

Are you using a T-shirt press or similar? Tests have been made with bubbles and cardbacks that produce the same kind of seals that your MOCs show.

Collectors on the forum are talking about calling in the fraud squad. Conservative estimates suggest you have defrauded the collecting community of over half a million pounds over the years.
This makes you the biggest fraud in star wars vintage collecting by a long way.

You have irrevocably damaged European and Palitoy MOC collecting forever. It will never be the same again.

Have you no sense of guilt or remorse for what you have done?

WTF!!!!

Jason- we have NO PROOF! ******* Zero Proof!

You can go around accusing people of mass fraud and that collectors can come to your market.

Its BS like this that will unravel everything that is being done. He calls the police now and makes out he his being harassed by a cult of ******* jealous toy collectors you can say goodbye to any resolution to this issue.

Please take a chill pill and wait till we have all the evidence we need. :wink:

Grant - I understand what you are saying here and agree that Jason's email was strongly worded - however you have reacted more indignantly that he did - if any of the accusations in Jason's email weren't true then surely you would go ballistic and defend yourself to the hilt?

 

[Grant_C]

To PM/.

 

[Bramistuta25]

Whilst I appreciate what you are saying Grant people are going to have to make their own minds up. Toni is never going to provide us with the information we need and is failure to even try and explain will suggest that he has literally no explanation.

All the "evidence" so far leads me to believe that the cards and bubbles were acquired by somebody, sold to Toni and he has been buying mint figures and repackaging them over the years.

With the information from JJ along with the eBay account changes, buying mint figures, the findings from Mattias and others lead me this way.

The MAIN evidence is Toni's silence. If you have nothing to hide then why hide and not deal with the situation. Like I said before he owes it to himself. His buyers and the collecting community to deal with this head on.

I know if it were me and I was innocent then I would be giving my version of events. Why doesn't he declare his source, tell us where he bought them from, the story with Arthur, the scenario with him and JJ, why he has changed his account on eBay 30 times, why he has changed his listings to private and all the other issues covered by everyone else.

He needs to address this sooner rather than later.

 

[Grant_C]

I hear what your saying.

But if someone asked me what do we have that are 100% facts- all we have is:

01: Cards and bubbles existed that were attempted to be sealed post factory.
02: ?

Everything else is based on looking for evidence to support a claim. A lot of this does look like the claim maybe true. But we cant even tell if our own AFA/UKG 90 cards are fake.