Resealed figure discovery debate - G.Kurtz Palitoy VC Jawa.

[skywalker]

God those hoth troopers are so clearly sealed with a household iron...

Unbelievable...

 

[Jez]

Holy Moly this makes for hard reading.

I just hope that the unused cards & bubbles that must have been left over at cease of production in the US were destroyed!

Can someone reassure me that the same hasn't potentially happened to Kenner leftovers?

 

[spoons]

Holy Moly this makes for hard reading.

I just hope that the unused cards & bubbles that must have been left over at cease of production in the US were destroyed!

Can someone reassure me that the same hasn't potentially happened to Kenner leftovers?

Nope - I'm waiting for the Kenner 47 back scandal

 

[søren]

Mattias , great work on the cardback stuff . I have a childhood c-3po pali 65 Nien Numb offer cardback . Sold in the danish part of Metro ( price sticker ) It does not have the pink dot either .

I have a lot off other pali cards with danish stickers . If you need other let me know . I would say say that in the 80s 1/3 - 1/ 4 of all sw sold in Denmark where palitoy the rest where kenner . And during clearenc sales in 1987 there where many many meccano jawas sold ... I can remembere seeing boxes of them i toy stores .

You guys can see a picture of a shop sold cardback here and read about the big sale .

http://trilogo.info/features/faetter-br-the-great-danish-trilogo-sale/

Looking at some of the palitoy cards today to find the 3-po card . I looked at where the bubels used to sit on the cardbacks . I know that it is not in the right place al the time . But when looking at the short clip of the palitoy sealing machine . It hit me , the bubels would not be able to move very much . So maybe one can measure from used cardsbacks or mocs with price stickers where a real buble is suppose to sit , against the ones on toys . His sealing rig must have been the same for 10+ years ? So this might be a fingerprint on his stuff ?

 

[ace]

sorry Lee what email address did you send it to me under ? with Stan Lee being announce end of last week i have around 2500 emails to go though so can you remind me again please thanks and i will respond

thansk

jason

 

[ace]

Holy Moly this makes for hard reading.

I just hope that the unused cards & bubbles that must have been left over at cease of production in the US were destroyed!

Can someone reassure me that the same hasn't potentially happened to Kenner leftovers?

Nope - I'm waiting for the Kenner 47 back scandal

its very unlikely to happen again there is not much chance that A that there is a big hall of unused cards figures and bubbles out there that know one knows exists that has serviced over this many years and that there is someone dishonest that would try to pass them off over decades ?

so its very unlikely these moons will be in a liniment again ?

 

[Caswellbot]

Im sure others have already noticed but, Sandtrooper's Photo of his Hothtrooper has an 03 bubble discussed earlier in the thread. :?

 

[**Delboy75**]

Are the Meccano Jawa's questionable or not? i know Arthur was the source for these too.

hi Delboy75

the french Jawas are fine mate they were not just from Arthur as others also sold them back then , i think all the french Jawas originally came from a place called Goeff Toys a toy shop that Palitoy used to clear end of line toys through and they also had Jawa's and may have been the place where Arthur bought his Jawa's from in the first place ?

hope that helps

jason

Thanks for clearing that up.

 

[Dublinjeff]

I sent a longer email to Tony earlier today which I received a reply to.....scared to post on thus thread as he will get ripped to shreds.....

To me that's a complete get out clause. Why would anyone who has a genuine, legitimate explanation for what went on have any fear coming onto a discussion forum to clear up the real worries or concerns his customers have at present? As has been pointed out on here, this debate/fact finding mission has been very restrained, especially considering the road it appears to be going down.

Why, if he can explain his position in all of this would he fear being torn to shreads. People are only looking for a straight forward, honest reply to the growing 'evidence' that is mounting.

Rubbish :|

 

[spoons]

Hi guys, obviously a lot of folk have been down at the FF4 event today but it seems this thread has been romping on. Today was a busy day at Fordingbridge. It was great to meet up with a lot of collectors and talk all things vintage. Jason Joiner brought along some very interesting carded figures which he says were bought by a collector in Coventry who bought them from Toytoni at a toy fair at Donnington Park. Grant (Maulster) may be able to verify this in time as he is in contact with someone who knows the person who alledgedly bought these from Toni. Hopefully he can confirm whether or not what Jason is saying is verifiable.

For now at least, they are proof that someone at some point was definitely trying to seal these cards with limited success. A number of methods have been used of varying qualities. I will try to highlight a few of these methods. There were 17 cards in total and I took photos of nearly all of them. There was also an ESB GM 45 Back Hammerhead which had come clean off the card leaving a bubble (with spray adhesive on it) and a virtually mint cardback which I cant believe I missed photographing although this was 45 min photograph session! I would like to add that of the 17 cards we looked at about 4 looked like they might be ok. The rest were either like frankenstein experiments or near forgeries of the real seal.

Spray Mount - Spray Adhesive Method? ESB Leia General Mills 45 back (Blue Blaster?) Notice the mottled texture under the seal of the bubble indicating the use of a spray adhesive. The back of the card is perfectly flat. It doesnt look like any pressure/ machine was used to bond the bubble to the card.

037 by Caswell2009, on Flickr

038 by Caswell2009, on Flickr

039 by Caswell2009, on Flickr

040 by Caswell2009, on Flickr

041 by Caswell2009, on Flickr

042 by Caswell2009, on Flickr

043 by Caswell2009, on Flickr

Iron Method? Palitoy ROTJ Pale Blue Fett - Palitoy 65 Back - (Printing alignment error on card.) Note the dragging scuffs of the card which move away from the bubble in an upwards diagonal movement. There is also a triangle shaped indent in between the twin stem of the bubble which gave birth to the idea that this may have been done with a normal household iron. (Diagnosis courtesy of Lee Bullock) The puckering around the bubble also suggests uneven heating.

066 by Caswell2009, on Flickr

067 by Caswell2009, on Flickr

068 by Caswell2009, on Flickr

069 by Caswell2009, on Flickr

071 by Caswell2009, on Flickr

Also Iron Method? Hoth Trooper Palitoy 65 Back - same scuff marks as the Fett. Malheated bubble. Also check the area around the hanger tab where it looks like there is an indent of another hanger tab where another card was resting on top. V shaped imprint at stem.

077 by Caswell2009, on Flickr

078 by Caswell2009, on Flickr

079 by Caswell2009, on Flickr

079 by Caswell2009, on Flickr

080 by Caswell2009, on Flickr


Brush on Adhesive Method? Boba Fett Pale Blue - ROTJ 65 Palitoy Back - The glue looks different on this. It is not speckled/ mottled like the leia and instead looks like it may have been applied with a brush? Its a bit of a messy job as there are traces of glue residue smeared around the cardback. Glue couldnt be used to stick the twin stem area at the bottom so again it looks like an iron was used.

090 by Caswell2009, on Flickr

091 by Caswell2009, on Flickr

093 by Caswell2009, on Flickr

094 by Caswell2009, on Flickr

095 by Caswell2009, on Flickr

Dare I say it, this one looked ok? 2-1-B Metallic Version GM 45 Back. Better cleaner seal which looked crystal clear. The black underneath the card actually looked black. There is also evidence of pressure being applied to the back of the card to seal the card and bubble.

072 by Caswell2009, on Flickr

073 by Caswell2009, on Flickr

074 by Caswell2009, on Flickr

076 by Caswell2009, on Flickr

Please click on any of the photos to enlarge and see the other photos of all the cards and to see the photos from what was a very enjoyable day in Fordingbridge. Thanks David for organising it!

Quick question - any black marker on the back of any of these or more recent fake 65 backs?

Skye mentioned some bit I don't know if his are real fakes

If only genuine cards had the date blocked out it would
Help those with potential fakes in their collections.

 

[mr_palitoy]

To answer some points raised at me while I was out.

I did look a JJ's Palitoy VCJ, it looks fine. No SW cards are on the list of figures/characters in question.

Delboy75 doubted Mattias's findings because a pink dot is not enough to bin a print run. Read his post again, there are other print errors that are less easy to identify that would have caused the run to fail QC.

cheers Jason

 

[mr_palitoy]

Here's my email to Toni this morning:-

=========================

Hi Toni, just back from FF4 Retro star wars collecting show in Fordingbridge this weekend.

It'll come as no surprise that you were the hot topic of the weekend.

Your silence on this matter is deafening. And damning.

You lack of response about the 2nd ebay account. Which you have changed the name of 30 odd times. And have made the buying history private in the last few days.

Lots of stories from collectors buying from you to find stuff is out of stock and then suddenly back in stock from other sources a week or two later.

There are printing faults on some of the unused cardbacks that link the unused cardbacks which you have sold with the large number of MOCs you have been selling over the years.

Examples of your very early attempts at sealing cards were seen shown at the show. These are obvious reseals and show that you took a bit of time to improve the sealing technique.

Are you using a T-shirt press or similar? Tests have been made with bubbles and cardbacks that produce the same kind of seals that your MOCs show.

This issue isn't going to go away. There are star wars collectors in Brighton who visit your stall. There are star wars collectors who also collect the tin robots you sell through
your zoomer toys website. All of your businesses are going to be discredited and suffer because of this.

I have bought 3 cards from you over the years, I also have an AFA 90 Palitoy ESB/ROTJ focus that has a dozen more of your cards in it that was worth £3-4k before this happened.

Collectors on the forum are talking about calling in the fraud squad. Conservative estimates suggest you have defrauded the collecting community of over half a million pounds over the years.
This makes you the biggest fraud in star wars vintage collecting by a long way.

You have irrevocably damaged European and Palitoy MOC collecting forever. It will never be the same again.

Have you no sense of guilt or remorse for what you have done?

Jason

==========================================

cheer Jason

 

[mr_palitoy]

And Toni's reply:-

"hi I am indeed sorry about what is happening- but on the forums anything I say can be be misunderstood or manipulated . I am not looking at the forums and watching every post .However I have seen some relating to Mr Joiner having 700 fetts and 700 hoth troopers if this was the case it seems clear that these items were around and circulating at the time. The source or sources of the figures Mr Joiner has mentioned is unknown as Mr Bailey must have been getting them from somewhere and its also far from clear what other people were getting the figures he was getting from those sources as well. If Mr Joiner had 1400 of these figures and was selling them at shows as was posted then it follows that various figures with bubble anomalies were in circulation at the time. To say these came from me is wrong."

Jason

 

[itfciain]

Well that is a pretty damning reply - no denial of any of the points that you raised at all - just a load of mumbling about Jason Joiner

 

[_Lee_]

**** Fett and the Hoth Troopers,what about the rest?

 

[Vernon]

My Hothtrooper again

An interesting read.
Here's my upside down Hoth Trooper.
No pin holes - but it does have an '03' bubble.

This card has always look off to me & I have no idea how it got through QC.

AND THATS THE ONES

yep and i know that came from me also i can prove that also

you see the card has a line of dust or dirt film going from top to bottom level with the bubble well thats because i have 500 of them and i could store them properly in my mums house back then so my loft had my personal collation in it and at one end in the top of the eves i stacked them one by one locking them tight next to the bubble next to the next one this meant that the only part of the card exposed dust was the part above the bubble over the years dust and crap came in from a loft vent creating a bit of grime in the surface so thats why you have that line on that card my friend it was in my loft for around 8 years


jason

Ive added a couple more photos

 

[Frunkstar]

Not read a lot of this thread TBH but can I just ask a question as my paranoid side is now starting to kick in, did any of these suspected faked cards come with a waffle pattern?, sorry if this has been covered 50 times, but its 80 pages to sift through :shock:

 

[JuniorChubb]

Should have kept up from the beginning Frank. :lol:

Go directly to page 1 and do not collect £200 when you pass Go! :wink:

BTW, no waffle patterns.

 

[Chico]

Thanks for sharing the e-mails Jason.

The scale of this makes it incredibly sad and I really feel for those that have invested more heavily than myself in the affected cards.

Hopefully any remaining pieces of the jigsaw will come out sooner rather than later and we can start to figure out which way is up.

 

[**Delboy75**]

To answer some points raised at me while I was out.

I did look a JJ's Palitoy VCJ, it looks fine. No SW cards are on the list of figures/characters in question.

Delboy75 doubted Mattias's findings because a pink dot is not enough to bin a print run. Read his post again, there are other print errors that are less easy to identify that would have caused the run to fail QC.

cheers Jason

No Jason, Mattias's findings are spot on, my point was a single 'spot' would not be enough to bin the run. It would take more than that, and Mattias has found enough wrong with the C3PO's to have them pulled.

My point is if these are rejected cards there will be more than a tiny ink mark error on them, so I'm sure if you guys compare shop ones to Toni's there will be enough differences between them to confirm Mattias's findings are spot on.

So no I did not doubt His findings at all, I was pointing out as someone in the industry that company's do not just chuck stuff out for teeny teeny defects. If these cards are rejects I guarantee there are other reasons than that tiny pink ink spot.

Someone mentioned a red blob on the reverse of the card by chewie, yes this is a defect but as someone who worked in QA for 15 years and the print industry for almost 7 years I would not expect a whole batch to be pulled for this one defect. There must be other things wrong with them, just like with the c3po.

I honestly think its case solved. Toni's defence is pathetic, it's just a case of finding out which cards are rejects and who was/is involved.