Resealed figure discovery debate - G.Kurtz Palitoy VC Jawa.

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Caswellbot said:
It would have to be one hell of a grudge for someone to do that Joe. I guess anything's possible but really after this long? Jason didn't exactly start a thread claiming this, it was dropped in as a more off the cuff comment. Plus reading the comments, the signs are pointing in the other direction at the moment.
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I know the signs aren't exactly in Toni's favor. I still hope that they're wrong, for the sake of the entire collecting community more than anything. But, a calculated person that's waited 20 years for revenge isn't going to come in guns a blazing dropping the bomb with a thread of its own, a subtle "ooh, I assumed that everyone knew this" would be the perfect way to present it to be honest. Either way it's created a Hiroshima level blast in the hobby.
I'm a grudge holding ************, so I can see how a calmer person than I would approach this kind of revenge. And as I said, had someone less controversial than Joiner come in with this revelation, I would be less inclined to think the worst of them.

J
 
No your spot on JoeY, Joiner knew exactly what he was doing and is now sitting back and laughing at whats unfolding.
 
Jason J - I think people really need this list you say you have - that will clear up a lot of things. People are running scared here and putting 2 and 2 together without hard evidence. Speculation is now running wild in the absence of hard evidence. So if you can produce your evidence now really is the time. At the end of the day you still have a sizable stake in this hobby and whats affects us ultimately will affect you too.

Toni - I assume you will read this - In the absence of communication from you people are drawing their own conclusions. Unless you communicate with people here I think you can say goodbye to your reputation and business in toys - and if you don't deal with this now it WILL spill over into your other toy interests too.

I personally think Tom Derby needs to be bought in on this as a third party verifier, at least to see if there is discernible differences between TT sourced figured and comparable store bought examples.
 
Starzone said:
One last thing....sealing figures to cards can't be that difficult. I have seen some excellent customs over the years
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using double sided tape or some other method than heat sealing. I have never seen a heat sealed custom.

Also the video hiighlighted shows the "Tooling" aspect of what I was getting at. Not cheap and not just a simple block of steel.
 
Lee Bullock said:
I personally think Tom Derby needs to be bought in on this as a third party verifier, at least to see if there is discernible differences between TT sourced figured and comparable store bought examples.
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I disagree Lee.I feel there is big conflict of interest there.If the rumours turn out true,you would have asked one of the biggest MOC experts to come out and state that a question mark hangs over his/AFA,s head.AFA have a lot riding on this as they have graded loads of pieces.Getting Tom involved would cause problems,as it could ultimately destroy any credibility that AFA have and would deem their database worthless.

Im not saying Tom would cover it but it wouldnt make people comfortable if he did so.

Lee
 
Lee Bullock said:
Jason J - I think people really need this list you say you have - that will clear up a lot of things. People are running scared here and putting 2 and 2 together without hard evidence. Speculation is now running wild in the absence of hard evidence. So if you can produce your evidence now really is the time. At the end of the day you still have a sizable stake in this hobby and whats affects us ultimately will affect you too.

Toni - I assume you will read this - In the absence of communication from you people are drawing their own conclusions. Unless you communicate with people here I think you can say goodbye to your reputation and business in toys - and if you don't deal with this now it WILL spill over into your other toy interests too.

I personally think Tom Derby needs to be bought in on this as a third party verifier, at least to see if there is discernible differences between TT sourced figured and comparable store bought examples.
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Some very good points Lee. I hope they both listen. Toni has always been a man of few words but now is the time to speak up.

The list is needed to prove whether Toni is guilty or innocent but there also needs to be some way to identify which MOCs have been sealed by Toni and which are unaffected because it appears there is no difference. Joe Y's idea sounds interesting but like Wolff I'm thinking it might be more relevant to MOCs with glue seals rather than heat seals. Not sure what it would show but definitely worth a go.

After Joe O showed the list of figures from Toni's other account it does appear that if he has sealed any of these MOCs he's been doing to order over the years rather than getting a factory to seal them all back in the late 80's. So how has he been sealing them? He surely doesn't have a huge piece of machinery like in the Palitoy factory video to do heat seals. Is it perhaps some sort of adhesive?

IF this escalates further I think AFA and UKG will have to be dragged into the conversation as they have likely graded a lot of these MOCs over the years. And there is also the possibility of errors with U grades especially with some of the cheaper MOCs like Snowtroopers for instance.

Anyone able to reveal Toni's other eBay ID. Considering the allegations which he hasn't responded to I think it would be good to get everything out in the open.
 
Palitoy78 said:
Lee Bullock said:
I personally think Tom Derby needs to be bought in on this as a third party verifier, at least to see if there is discernible differences between TT sourced figured and comparable store bought examples.
Click to expand...

I disagree Lee.I feel there is big conflict of interest there.If the rumours turn out true,you would have asked one of the biggest MOC experts to come out and state that a question mark hangs over his/AFA,s head.AFA have a lot riding on this as they have graded loads of pieces.Getting Tom involved would cause problems,as it could ultimately destroy any credibility that AFA have and would deem their database worthless.

Im not saying Tom would cover it but it wouldnt make people comfortable if he did so.

Lee
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AFA are going to have to acknowledge and do something. What happens when people start sending in their ungraded Toni's in for grading and the list of affected figures is public. Or people send them in and say they are from Toni and want to know if they are real or not. They can't just stick their head in the sand and ignore the problem until it goes away as it will never go away.

Jason
 
I was just wondering if there is evidence of heat sealing on these MOC's or the use of "heavy machinery." I know that in kenner cardbacks it is quite common to see the notorious "kenner crease" or ondulations in the card where pressure has been applied to the back of the card in order to seal the bubble to the card. Is there any evidence of this on ToyToni cards? Just a thought??
 
I can't see a scenario where AFA come out of this good.

Do you say that existing AFA graded Toni's are good and that new ones aren't or that they get a special Toni's reseal label on them or are just refused grading, assuming that AFA could even tell the difference. Once the figure/card combos are known, the AFA grade on those affected figures are going to be worthless. Do AFA revoke them from the database? What about the ones which are genuine? Do they all have to be resubmitted for approval. It's a big old mess, whatever happens!

:o

Jason
 
Just a worrying thought but does this call in to question all MOCs from the UK? I mean this might not be the first time unused card backs and bubbles have been obtained from the factory. What about all the old SW wave or ESB wave cards? Between every wave there would likely be left over stock of unused cards right?
 
olisuds said:
Just a worrying thought but does this call in to question all MOCs from the UK? I mean this might not be the first time unused card backs and bubbles have been obtained from the factory. What about all the old SW wave or ESB wave cards? Between every wave there would likely be left over stock of unused cards right?
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There is only one load of stock from the factory when it closed as far as I am aware. JJ or some of the older collectors may have a better idea.

Jason
 
Depending on how they handle it, this could definitely topple AFA's credibility (the only reason that part of me hopes that the accusation is true)
 
Caswellbot said:
I was just wondering if there is evidence of heat sealing on these MOC's or the use of "heavy machinery." I know that in kenner cardbacks it is quite common to see the notorious "kenner crease" or ondulations in the card where pressure has been applied to the back of the card in order to seal the bubble to the card. Is there any evidence of this on ToyToni cards? Just a thought??
Click to expand...

I think they have it. Photo's coming shortly.
 
jedisearcher said:
Caswellbot said:
I was just wondering if there is evidence of heat sealing on these MOC's or the use of "heavy machinery." I know that in kenner cardbacks it is quite common to see the notorious "kenner crease" or ondulations in the card where pressure has been applied to the back of the card in order to seal the bubble to the card. Is there any evidence of this on ToyToni cards? Just a thought??
Click to expand...

I think they have it. Photo's coming shortly.
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I have 3 MOCs directly from Toni, what exactly am I looking for? Creasing on the back of the card round the bubble?

cheers Jason
 
Ill also use Joe's words because they may be more lucid than mine: "It's important to understand the process of sealing a figure in a bubble on to a card, Kenner used a process of heat and force to keep the bubble on the card and many cards exhibit wrinkles or lines on the back of the card which indicates the force used, these are sometimes referred to as the "Kenner Crease" and although it is a slight flaw, it is also a good indication of originality.

Taken from TIG. I hope you dont mind Joe.
 
Do you mean the "bulge" on the back if the card where the bubble is? If so then I'm pretty sure the two I have do.

They are a palitoy hoth trooper and a palitoy c3po both on Jedi cards 65 backs I think. They will be coming to ff4 with me if anyone wants to closely scrutinise them.
 
Yes something along those lines might be an indication of pressure being applied. Im sure there will be a few folk discussing this and looking at things at the FF event.
 
All 3 of mine show a bit of bulge, not much though. One also has a line on it about an 2 inches long parallel to the edge of the bubble on the side furthest into the card. A bit like a scrape but not that bad.

Jason
 
Chris, this is what you mean isn't it?





They are Leia Bespin and Power Droid on GM 45's with the English text. Take a look at the Power Droid (the second one), there also looks to be some slight bubbling most noticably in the top left corner directly behind the bubble. Both cards do look really nice quality, but the closer you look they are slightly scratched, tiny indents, they look very slightly worn, like they've been handled abit. Probably an AFA 85.

I also have Ben and Han Original on GM 45's with no English text and they look the same on the back with the outline of the bubble visible. Out of the four, only the PD has any sign of that bubbling.

However, and different to the Leia and PD, these no English text cards are completely immaculate. They quite literally don't have any wear whatsoever. Glossy, smooth, no edgewear, not a blemish. It's hard to believe they've ever been through a factory production line. Of 23 graded by AFA, there's a single 95 and 10 90's :shock: I'm thinking these are 90's although I've had 90's and they weren't this good.

To the front of the card, something I also noticed is so slight marking on the bubble. First one Leia Bespin, with English text:



Zoom in and take a look at the bubble seal to the right of her waist. There's a small arc on the edge, fuly indented into the bubble.

The Han Solo with no text has the same:



Neither Ben nor PD have any such markings. So a no English text and an English text card have the same indent. Not easy to tell whether they're a fault in the plastic, or happened on sealing.

Chris
 

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