Resealed figure discovery debate - G.Kurtz Palitoy VC Jawa.

[jimbody1]

Id like to point out again that I have already said that i know a dealer who claims to have sold Toni lots of mint loose figures in the past that were in his opinion more than likely going to be used for this enterprise.

How many, which figures was they? We have all sold minty loose figures, Toni has some for sale, are they the figures that Toni bought?

 

[escapist]

the only thing i more i can offer is the list and as i have said i will find it , but what then is every one just not going to believe its the list ? or thats just a list of figures that dose not prove anything ?

if you do not want to believe then there is nothing i can do to make you . its like the moon landings there are people out there that say it never happened .

also if i respond now i got people telling to stop going on about it ? then if i do not give a response i get your not responding and hiding ? i know i cannot win anything i do

Bottom line, I think that the list is all people want to see really. If it had Arthur's name on it, and shows that he had a large quantity of cards, bubbles and figures it would certainly lend a lot of weigh to your argument.

You have provided a lot of written representations of your recollections, but no hard copy evidence.

Maybe just hold off posting until that list is found. Otherwise this just stays the "he said/he said" argument that it has been for the past 20 pages.

Don't get me wrong though, I love reading it though...

 

[mumbo]

Has this storm registered over on RS yet? Because if it were the other way round we'd all be following with intent :?:

 

[Joe]

Has this storm registered over on RS yet? Because if it were the other way round we'd all be following with intent :?:

I think there are a few people from other boards aware of this thread and they are reading but I don't think there are any threads about this just yet.

To be honest, the way RS is going with the influx of U grade fans, bootleg haters, MOC openers and those who seem to have only started collecting this year - a thread like this would be completely lost on them.

I am thankful we have a smaller forum here with plenty of old timers still around!

 

[Dark Sith Lord]

There is a thread on TIG

http://www.imperialgunneryforum.com/t6544-are-people-following-this

 

[wbobafett]

TIG has one....and the German forum of course! (Lichtgeschwindigkeit.de)

Everyone seems to be anxious what happens here....just waiting.....maybe also shocked??

Anyway....I posted this over TIG and will repost here:

...the problem is: it actually would solve so many riddles.....as I wrote years ago:

....
2.Case: PBP Bossk
This is also a very rare variant. Just like the PBP Biker mentioned above, it can be found loose in Spain but not a single PBP carded one has been found. On the other hand this variant was found on British (Palitoy ESB 45back, single stem blister) and German (General Mills ESB 45back, single stem blister) cards whilst only one loose example was found in England (as far as I am aware). So the real origin of this figures stays an unsolved mystery. The carded examples seem to be found in completely different locations to the loose ones and completely mess with the theory.

To me it will always be a big riddle and we may never know everything about these figures. ....

...taken from the introduction acrticle about Coos:
http://swspaceclub.com/wbobafett/introduction-coos/

There would be waaay more examples.....and I am really afraid now to ask the people owning one looking for the english text :/

No matter what: You can find very odd figures on some of those...figure variants that should normally have been produced waaay later, not even close to ESB. Thats why I personally always assumed that "overstock figures" (i.e. from Spain) were packed on overstock cards (Palitoy ESB 45back) near the end of producing SW toys......

This is not new. I repeat: I actually wrote this down several times....years ago......and now my own thoughts actually "would" make sense...in one way or the other!

I cannot understrike this more:
I am not saying Toni did what others claim, I am only saying: I always wondered about some of them....they could be very late produced from overstock parts....in factory or at someones home.....

...anyway.....some of those MUST be used overstock (cardbacks) IMO. The question is now where they were sealed!?!?!

 

[Mr-shifter]

One point chaps, looking at the details of the company records held at company house. There is only one director of the company, and that is Arthur Bailey. Toni is listed as company secretary. They were equal shareholders, 1 share each at £1 but not equal in company stature or standing.

I don't think Toni would, as company secretary, have had the same liabilities or responsibilities as Arthur Bailey as director. They certainly aren't equal directors.

 

[jimbody1]

Even if the list is produced all it will mean is that this Arthur bloke had a lot of unused cards and bubbles, that is unless Toni wrote I bought these on it. Its always going to be a case of one persons word against another. Its up to people to decide who's telling the truth. Ive had toni and non toni mocs, both have been the same seal wise and if the afa and ukg think they're original that's good enough for me.

 

[wbobafett]

IMO it all comes down to that "list". If we have that list then we could start investigating (okay...I am thinking of a list calling characters and so on....I guess back in the day maybe no one cared if the Bossk unused card was German or whatever??). We could maybe find a "pattern"....lets say late PBP figures on those, strange coos, unusual bubbles etc.....

without a list, this stays what it is: a myth!

I am not giving much about the other claims on both sides. I am also just interested, because there were really some strange figures found on some of those 45 backs (Palitoy and German).....and I really would like to know if these are real!

For those who think this wouldn't have an impact on the hobby, because all items "used" are original: It IS importnat to the hobby, especially for loose collectors trying to track down variants to their release. If something just was made up here it would be very horrible for the loose variant community too!

Just saying.....2cents and so....

 

[Richard_H]

When were COOs documented? Do the figures in the cards have the correct COO variants?

 

[wbobafett]

When were COOs documented? Do the figures in the cards have the correct COO variants?

some of us can see the coos from the front...lol...sad....isn't it?

Anyway...I am not good spotting Mocs, but very good spotting figures! . In case of the PBP Bossk (no coo scar) or I also saw a PBP Luke Farmboy (no coo scar) on ESB 45back (German) this is really strange! These figures were IMO very late issues of the PBP factory and in no way could have been produced in the ESB timeframe.

I always assumed that some of them must be mixed up overstock....figures from PBP sent to Palitoy and there wre packed on overstock ESB cards. The english text for example would be perfect to explain why those were overstock!

But as said: Many strange things happend in the "end".....so these of course can be factory made too! And it would explain their shape/condition! I could also imagine that loads of them never left the factory and were bought as overstock MOCs.

I am not here accusing anyone...just saying that no matter what: Some of those seem to be very late issues...way later then ESB!

 

[itfciain]

The TIG thread does throw up an interesting point in terms of the actual figures found in these cards. If COO variants are turning up in cards that can only be traced back to Toni and nowhere else then there has to be a worry that these were created at a later date?

This would suggest that at the time no-one thought anyone would go into such detail with regards to variants and therefore as long as the figure was minty then it could be placed in a bubble and sealed up

Food for thought :?:

 

[Joe]

In a nutshell yes Iain.

Not so much a can of worms, more like a skip full of angry snakes. If it's true, it could potentially rewrite Vintage history, render collector/variant guides useless and also have a huge impact on the value of those sealed figures.

This is very much why I can't see why people are asking what impact it would have or would difference it would make if Toni did seal figures to cards himself, I really don't get that viewpoint at all. It still has to be proven but even thinking about it being true gives me a headache.

 

[edd_jedi]

I've just remembered something that may (or of course may not) be of interest to this debate.

I last bought from Toni in 2011, and they happened to be ESB German MOCs. Toni sent over photos of the ones I asked for (I won't post his exact emails) but here was my reply:

09/05/2011
Hi Toni,

Thanks for the photos. Do you happen to have a Ben Kenobi with a
normal style bubble like Chewbacca and the Ben on your site? I'm not
keen on the double stem bubbles as they break easily. In fact do you
have a Stormtrooper and Han with normal bubbles too?

Thanks,
Edd

He replied telling me that he did have the figures with the different style bubbles and sent photos a couple of days later. I have attached the photos he sent me of both kinds to this post.

So in summary, Toni had the same figures/cardbacks but with different bubble types. I'd be interested to know if any of the German collectors have seen German-sourced MOCs with both bubble types, otherwise this obviously lends to the theory that they are 'made to order' :?:

 

[edd_jedi]

This is very much why I can't see why people are asking what impact it would have or would difference it would make if Toni did seal figures to cards himself, I really don't get that viewpoint at all. It still has to be proven but even thinking about it being true gives me a headache.

Not that it doesn't matter Joe, just that without an admission it's impossible to confirm.

 

[wbobafett]

both...stormtrooper and Ben are "known" with single stem:
http://www.raumhafen.de/cgi-bin/showp.pl?pic=/galerie/starwars/sw/esb_45back_d&titel=German%20ESB%20Figures

I also do not think someone can be that stupid "creating" the bubble type you "like".....just out of nowhere??? Or am I missing something ....i.e. totally got you wrong??

 

[itfciain]

I think this is quite telling in your write up -

"For me it's astonishing that on my about 30 loose cardback from different sources from Germany I find no single card with this English text but on perhaps 1/3 of the carded figures I got from UK. This is something still to explain."

 

[edd_jedi]

I also do not think someone can be that stupid "creating" the bubble type you "like".....just out of nowhere??? Or am I missing something ....i.e. totally got you wrong??

I'm not suggesting he made the bubbles, just that if the story is true it's possible he has both single and double stem bubbles. Is it normal to see the same cardback from the same source with various different bubble types? Surely any production run would have used the same bubble.

 

[Caswellbot]

Id like to point out again that I have already said that i know a dealer who claims to have sold Toni lots of mint loose figures in the past that were in his opinion more than likely going to be used for this enterprise.

How many, which figures was they? We have all sold minty loose figures, Toni has some for sale, are they the figures that Toni bought?

Ok so I have just got off the phone to the person I was talking about and he remembers Toni looking out for c10 hothtroopers at a fair. He believes it was cheshunt. (Big fair and unrivalled anywhere in the UK. Good days. Amazing stuff at cheshunt)

 

[Mr-shifter]

Ok so I have just got off the phone to the person I was talking about and he remembers Toni looking out for c10 hothtroopers at a fair. He believes it was cheshunt. (Big fair and unrivalled anywhere in the UK. Good days. Amazing stuff at cheshunt)

Maybe he was starting a focus :wink: