Resealed figure discovery debate - G.Kurtz Palitoy VC Jawa.

Tonigate is a good title, I would still buy afa 90 ROTJ graded figures which may or may not have originated from him.
 
x-pack said:
Starzone said:
I've watched and read all posts with interest and really don't know what to think.

Even though I have been around a long time even this precedes me as Toni already had these for sale when I first visited the major shows in 1991 ish, always heard rumours of backing cards and bubbles but that's all I heard...rumours.

Like I said in an earlier post I have 3 unused Palitoy backing cards in my collection C-3PO, Snowtrooper and Logray and these were bought at a Donington toy & train fair around 1994, I also have a Snowtrooper with the wording "Copy" stamped on it in several places. I purchased them from another seller not Toni but I guess they may have come from Arthur Bailey at one point.

The sheer amount of figures sold over the years blows my mind but if the figure of 25,000 is correct then that's why.

It all seems a mess and to be honest if Jason had made that accusation against me I would be on here all guns blazing and seeking legal advice not failing to respond to questions.......and there are many questions, buying u graded figures on ebay (if true) would concern me, the every bubble type available option and also if Arthur had unused cards and bubbles then where are they now?

Hope it all gets sorted out for the good of the hobby.
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It's a good point. If anyone made these accusations against any of us we'd be royally pissed. Maybe people are seeking legal advice. That's one of many possible explanations for silence on the matter.
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Although there would be absolutely no problem with that person at least telling us that was the case - like Bill Mcbride had to do on RS recently. As someone else has said, the silence comes across as more damaging than someone coming out fighting imo.
 
Captainsolo1978 said:
Just to clarify were footers ever used on German 45 backs?

Thanks for the input Darren. I don't think I'll be collecting Palitoy anymore.
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Its not all palitoys that are in question mate. Just to clarify.
 
I know. However the Palitoy logo figures pre 45 back go for silly money. As stated before figures in c7 condition and below are looking better now !

Most of my Carded figures are Kenner. Of my Palitoys four were bought from Toni. This is all really crappy!!!
In the words of Tom Cruise

"I want the truth!"

And please no one answer

"You can't handle the truth!"
Or
"Why can't we all just get along?"
 
wbobafett said:
@JoeY: I am not sure what you want to see with a microscope on a heat sealed bubble?? They are heat sealed, originals as well as possible fakes. They will look different...each of them...as you can see on the Palitoy video there was someone inserting them by hand, then pressing them together with a heating machine....for how long?? Every card was pressed different (thinking of the time) so the seals can look different...always. I am afraid you wont find anything to differ the seals. This would have been noticed since ages I guess, am I wrong??

So what maybe can be used is the good old UV light. Plastics that get heated once do age faster. A "newer" seal should be chemically different then an old seal (speaking of the plastic)...that maybe can be seen under UV. But I am sure Afa uses that for spotting ink touch uips...though?!?!??
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If they were sealed with different glues or process' then they would look different under a microscope and or UV. That's how AFA/ CIB-Tom Derby double check bubbles that they're not sure of. While examples sent individually have passed muster. Did they look and compare to see if they were sealed differently, or just look to see if it was in the range of what was considered to be an original seal with the info that they had before.
Examining non Toni owned examples next to known Toni owned examples of the same figure and card IMO is part of the key to figuring out if this whole scandal is fact, or just Joiner taking the piss to the entire hobby, and trying to **** with Toni's reputation over a 20 year old deal that Jason missed out on.
Think about it (and no offense meant) Jason, in just about every conversation about him that I've ever heard from anyone, has been considered a fraud by the bulk of the community thru the years, people that know and don't know him alike. Wouldn't throwing a monkey wrench into the heart of the carded collecting community be a fun revenge for all that? Just a thought.

J
 
...as said Joe...as far as I do understand it: no glue! Just heat and pressure involved...manually!! :shock: ...which means they can all look different. Only thing would be the "age" of the seal! And that "could" be spotted by UV....but not by a microscope I think! (Remember....I am a bit familiar with aging process of art...though....)
 
wbobafett said:
...as said Joe...as far as I do understand it: no glue! Just heat and pressure involved...manually!! :shock: ...which means they can all look different. Only thing would be the "age" of the seal! And that "could" be spotted by UV....but not by a microscope I think! (Remember....I am a bit familiar with aging process of art...though....)
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When discussing the seal on an Uzay that a friend was buying from another friend, with Tom recently (yes different than a Palitoy/GM seal) but he went into all of the determining factors on why he felt the seal wasn't completely original, including how the seal showed under both UV and microscope. If the methods weren't on the exact same type of machine, I'd be fairly sure that, when comparing multiple Toni and multiple non Toni figures, they'd find a patern of differences (if they're fake seals).

IF a less controversial source came in with the same information, I'd be less likely to doubt it. To be completely honest. But, here I sit, popcorn at the ready to see where this goes, and toss my .02 in where it might? be helpful.

J
 
It would have to be one hell of a grudge for someone to do that Joe. I guess anything's possible but really after this long? Jason didn't exactly start a thread claiming this, it was dropped in as a more off the cuff comment. Plus reading the comments, the signs are pointing in the other direction at the moment.
 
Caswellbot said:
It would have to be one hell of a grudge for someone to do that Joe. I guess anything's possible but really after this long? Jason didn't exactly start a thread claiming this, it was dropped in as a more off the cuff comment. Plus reading the comments, the signs are pointing in the other direction at the moment.
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I know the signs aren't exactly in Toni's favor. I still hope that they're wrong, for the sake of the entire collecting community more than anything. But, a calculated person that's waited 20 years for revenge isn't going to come in guns a blazing dropping the bomb with a thread of its own, a subtle "ooh, I assumed that everyone knew this" would be the perfect way to present it to be honest. Either way it's created a Hiroshima level blast in the hobby.
I'm a grudge holding motherfucker, so I can see how a calmer person than I would approach this kind of revenge. And as I said, had someone less controversial than Joiner come in with this revelation, I would be less inclined to think the worst of them.

J
 
No your spot on JoeY, Joiner knew exactly what he was doing and is now sitting back and laughing at whats unfolding.
 
Jason J - I think people really need this list you say you have - that will clear up a lot of things. People are running scared here and putting 2 and 2 together without hard evidence. Speculation is now running wild in the absence of hard evidence. So if you can produce your evidence now really is the time. At the end of the day you still have a sizable stake in this hobby and whats affects us ultimately will affect you too.

Toni - I assume you will read this - In the absence of communication from you people are drawing their own conclusions. Unless you communicate with people here I think you can say goodbye to your reputation and business in toys - and if you don't deal with this now it WILL spill over into your other toy interests too.

I personally think Tom Derby needs to be bought in on this as a third party verifier, at least to see if there is discernible differences between TT sourced figured and comparable store bought examples.
 
Starzone said:
One last thing....sealing figures to cards can't be that difficult. I have seen some excellent customs over the years
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using double sided tape or some other method than heat sealing. I have never seen a heat sealed custom.

Also the video hiighlighted shows the "Tooling" aspect of what I was getting at. Not cheap and not just a simple block of steel.
 
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