Resealed figure discovery debate - G.Kurtz Palitoy VC Jawa.

[wbobafett]

When were COOs documented? Do the figures in the cards have the correct COO variants?

some of us can see the coos from the front...lol...sad....isn't it?

Anyway...I am not good spotting Mocs, but very good spotting figures! . In case of the PBP Bossk (no coo scar) or I also saw a PBP Luke Farmboy (no coo scar) on ESB 45back (German) this is really strange! These figures were IMO very late issues of the PBP factory and in no way could have been produced in the ESB timeframe.

I always assumed that some of them must be mixed up overstock....figures from PBP sent to Palitoy and there wre packed on overstock ESB cards. The english text for example would be perfect to explain why those were overstock!

But as said: Many strange things happend in the "end".....so these of course can be factory made too! And it would explain their shape/condition! I could also imagine that loads of them never left the factory and were bought as overstock MOCs.

I am not here accusing anyone...just saying that no matter what: Some of those seem to be very late issues...way later then ESB!

 

[itfciain]

The TIG thread does throw up an interesting point in terms of the actual figures found in these cards. If COO variants are turning up in cards that can only be traced back to Toni and nowhere else then there has to be a worry that these were created at a later date?

This would suggest that at the time no-one thought anyone would go into such detail with regards to variants and therefore as long as the figure was minty then it could be placed in a bubble and sealed up

Food for thought :?:

 

[Joe]

In a nutshell yes Iain.

Not so much a can of worms, more like a skip full of angry snakes. If it's true, it could potentially rewrite Vintage history, render collector/variant guides useless and also have a huge impact on the value of those sealed figures.

This is very much why I can't see why people are asking what impact it would have or would difference it would make if Toni did seal figures to cards himself, I really don't get that viewpoint at all. It still has to be proven but even thinking about it being true gives me a headache.

 

[edd_jedi]

I've just remembered something that may (or of course may not) be of interest to this debate.

I last bought from Toni in 2011, and they happened to be ESB German MOCs. Toni sent over photos of the ones I asked for (I won't post his exact emails) but here was my reply:

09/05/2011
Hi Toni,

Thanks for the photos. Do you happen to have a Ben Kenobi with a
normal style bubble like Chewbacca and the Ben on your site? I'm not
keen on the double stem bubbles as they break easily. In fact do you
have a Stormtrooper and Han with normal bubbles too?

Thanks,
Edd

He replied telling me that he did have the figures with the different style bubbles and sent photos a couple of days later. I have attached the photos he sent me of both kinds to this post.

So in summary, Toni had the same figures/cardbacks but with different bubble types. I'd be interested to know if any of the German collectors have seen German-sourced MOCs with both bubble types, otherwise this obviously lends to the theory that they are 'made to order' :?:

 

[edd_jedi]

This is very much why I can't see why people are asking what impact it would have or would difference it would make if Toni did seal figures to cards himself, I really don't get that viewpoint at all. It still has to be proven but even thinking about it being true gives me a headache.

Not that it doesn't matter Joe, just that without an admission it's impossible to confirm.

 

[wbobafett]

both...stormtrooper and Ben are "known" with single stem:
http://www.raumhafen.de/cgi-bin/showp.pl?pic=/galerie/starwars/sw/esb_45back_d&titel=German%20ESB%20Figures

I also do not think someone can be that stupid "creating" the bubble type you "like".....just out of nowhere??? Or am I missing something ....i.e. totally got you wrong??

 

[itfciain]

I think this is quite telling in your write up -

"For me it's astonishing that on my about 30 loose cardback from different sources from Germany I find no single card with this English text but on perhaps 1/3 of the carded figures I got from UK. This is something still to explain."

 

[edd_jedi]

I also do not think someone can be that stupid "creating" the bubble type you "like".....just out of nowhere??? Or am I missing something ....i.e. totally got you wrong??

I'm not suggesting he made the bubbles, just that if the story is true it's possible he has both single and double stem bubbles. Is it normal to see the same cardback from the same source with various different bubble types? Surely any production run would have used the same bubble.

 

[Caswellbot]

Id like to point out again that I have already said that i know a dealer who claims to have sold Toni lots of mint loose figures in the past that were in his opinion more than likely going to be used for this enterprise.

How many, which figures was they? We have all sold minty loose figures, Toni has some for sale, are they the figures that Toni bought?

Ok so I have just got off the phone to the person I was talking about and he remembers Toni looking out for c10 hothtroopers at a fair. He believes it was cheshunt. (Big fair and unrivalled anywhere in the UK. Good days. Amazing stuff at cheshunt)

 

[Mr-shifter]

Ok so I have just got off the phone to the person I was talking about and he remembers Toni looking out for c10 hothtroopers at a fair. He believes it was cheshunt. (Big fair and unrivalled anywhere in the UK. Good days. Amazing stuff at cheshunt)

Maybe he was starting a focus :wink:

 

[wbobafett]

I think this is quite telling in your write up -

"For me it's astonishing that on my about 30 loose cardback from different sources from Germany I find no single card with this English text but on perhaps 1/3 of the carded figures I got from UK. This is something still to explain."

Wolfgang is NOT me...I am Wolff. :lol: ...both are German dudes....but Wolfgang is a real "guru" to the hobby since decades!!!

I also do not think someone can be that stupid "creating" the bubble type you "like".....just out of nowhere??? Or am I missing something ....i.e. totally got you wrong??

I'm not suggesting he made the bubbles, just that if the story is true it's possible he has both single and double stem bubbles. Is it normal to see the same cardback from the same source with various different bubble types? Surely any production run would have used the same bubble.

As I said already above: I always looked at some of those and thought: These must be overstock assembled on the very last days: overstock figures, cardbacks and bubbles! I am not really good in cradbacks (I also said above) but I can spot figures, Coos and variants very good.

Anyway...I repeat myself I guess: The question is not if there were some parts widley mixed up (it is IMO...and always was), the question is only one: where were they sealed?

I could imagine that GM collected everything in the Plaitoy factory and just wildley mixed up and used their own overstock (PBP, Plaitoy, Asina stuff...etc).....I am not even sure thatb some of those ever hit the market.....anyway....it doenst proof anything! Just that some things got mixed up...which is surely possible IMO

 

[JohnA]

Has this storm registered over on RS yet? Because if it were the other way round we'd all be following with intent :?:

No RS yet but I know several collectors following this. I've been reading for days, just not responding. I don't think most have anything to add and wold rather just be informed and see where this shakes out.

FWIW the point about mix/match cardbacks/COOs is interesting. It reminded me of a Ledy Fett I saw a while back and I think it was on a Palitoy. Then again, pretty sure Billy Boy is the one who shared the pic so take that with a grain of salt.

John

 

[wbobafett]

Has this storm registered over on RS yet? Because if it were the other way round we'd all be following with intent :?:

No RS yet but I know several collectors following this. I've been reading for days, just not responding. I don't think most have anything to add and wold rather just be informed and see where this shakes out.

FWIW the point about mix/match cardbacks/COOs is interesting. It reminded me of a Ledy Fett I saw a while back and I think it was on a Palitoy. Then again, pretty sure Billy Boy is the one who shared the pic so take that with a grain of salt.

John

John...good to see you here and respond....but also I have to correct you because you surely missed this (because you were gone for a while or you are mixing up some stuff??)


Anyway: BillyBoy claimed to have a LL Fett on Trilogo card!!! That mystery is solved since a few years:

The Fett is a no coo, but no Ledy and not Trilogo (lightgrey)! It is called "Meccano Fett" on todays market (loose), which is actually wrong. The figure only was released on French Trilogos! It is very rare and prices are up to 200€ for a loose one.....

Anyway...no Ledy....and Billy hasn't faked that one!

You can see one in Stephane's limelight over on RS!

If I am wrong (with what you ment)...please do not shoot me!! :lol:

Best

Wolff

 

[JohnA]

Just a vague memory from a while back. It may have been a Tri, which is why I had Palitoy in mind. I'd have to see the pic you speak of. That Fett was dark, almost purple, just like a Ledy but maybe this Meccano variant is like that . I have a peripheral knowledge of variants, at best, so I leave that to the experts, like you. Just popped into my head.

Not wanting to hijack this as it's an important, and very interesting, if not ridiculously long, thread. LOL

John

 

[wbobafett]

Just a vague memory from a while back. It may have been a Tri, which is why I had Palitoy in mind. I'd have to see the pic you speak of. That Fett was dark, almost purple, just like a Ledy but maybe this Meccano variant is like that . I have a peripheral knowledge of variants, at best, so I leave that to the experts, like you. Just popped into my head.

Not wanting to hijack this as it's an important, and very interesting, if not ridiculously long, thread. LOL

John

BillyBoys webshots album is gone...sadly....(cannot find that pic....I barely safe Moc pictures as you may know... :/ )



COO:
http://swspaceclub.com/wbobafett/coo-guide-3-0/anh/boba-fett/#a
#I R2a and b

LOOSE:
http://swspaceclub.com/wbobafett/my-collection/meccano/

MOC:
http://forum.rebelscum.com/t1011734/
http://forum.rebelscum.com/t1102563/

 

[Joe]

I can confirm what Wolff is saying John, it was a Trilogo that Billy had when he was referring to the Ledy figure (I had the picture saved from his webshots at one point). It's now classed as a Meccano - http://trilogo.info/features/the-real-trilogo-fett/

Not that it worries me in this instance because so many of these have turned up now and all from France or on that specific card variant but Toni DID have one of these for sale on his site at one point :?

 

[wbobafett]

I can confirm what Wolff is saying John, it was a Trilogo that Billy had when he was referring to the Ledy figure (I had the picture saved from his webshots at one point). It's now classed as a Meccano - http://trilogo.info/features/the-real-trilogo-fett/

Not that it worries me in this instance because so many of these have turned up now and all from France or on that specific card variant but Toni DID have one of these for sale on his site at one point :?

...shame on me I didnt knew this article of yours

....but great work Joe!

Naaah.....as said: For now I only would worry about other combos! Some figures that were found loose mainly in other countries regarding their survived MOCS! In case of the Trilogo (French) Fett: Nearly all loose examples and the Mocs are a total match! Nothing to worry about those IMO! And on the others: As said...not sure....mixed up ****: Yes!...but who mixed them up?? Factory...or someone in private??

 

[Lee Bullock]

I really want to believe Toni in all this - but I really do think that he should communicate in this thread about all this. I know if he is innocent he may think he should have to justify unfounded accusations but keeping silent can also do much damage to his reputation in all this - as rightly or wrongly it may be seen as something to hide. Right now I dont know what to believe. The seals on the GM's look the same as the seals on the store bought cards, but the lack of UK descriptions on the back on store bought cards seriously bother me. Could the have been sealed by a private interest post Palitoy - I wouldnt have thought so with the sealing technology but to be honest I dont want to assume anything right now.

Toni does need to communicate here with his customer base though - for the sake of his rep and business if nothing else.

 

[jimbody1]

I really want to believe Toni in all this - but I really do think that he should communicate in this thread about all this. I know if he is innocent he may think he should have to justify unfounded accusations but keeping silent can also do much damage to his reputation in all this - as rightly or wrongly it may be seen as something to hide. Right now I dont know what to believe. The seals on the GM's look the same as the seals on the store bought cards, but the lack of UK descriptions on the back on store bought cards seriously bother me. Could the have been sealed by a private interest post Palitoy - I wouldnt have thought so with the sealing technology but to be honest I dont want to assume anything right now.

Toni does need to communicate here with his customer base though - for the sake of his rep and business if nothing else.

there is a third option and that may be they were sealed at the palitoy factory before having the palitoy sticker placed over the back after heat sealing, the cards was heated from the back after all looking at the palitoy factory footage, evidence of this can occasionally be found on cards that were over heated as the card starts to delaminate, i had a luke stormie with this problem and it had bubbles in the card around where it was heat sealed but they was only visible from the back. i sold that to freeballer over on the swcc, i dont know if he still has it though.

 

[mike-skywalker]

I've just remembered something that may (or of course may not) be of interest to this debate.

I last bought from Toni in 2011, and they happened to be ESB German MOCs. Toni sent over photos of the ones I asked for (I won't post his exact emails) but here was my reply:

09/05/2011
Hi Toni,

Thanks for the photos. Do you happen to have a Ben Kenobi with a
normal style bubble like Chewbacca and the Ben on your site? I'm not
keen on the double stem bubbles as they break easily. In fact do you
have a Stormtrooper and Han with normal bubbles too?

Thanks,
Edd

He replied telling me that he did have the figures with the different style bubbles and sent photos a couple of days later. I have attached the photos he sent me of both kinds to this post.

So in summary, Toni had the same figures/cardbacks but with different bubble types. I'd be interested to know if any of the German collectors have seen German-sourced MOCs with both bubble types, otherwise this obviously lends to the theory that they are 'made to order' :?:

My Bossk Cardbacks have both German Price Stickers and the bubbles which were amounted were different.
There´s one thing I noticed a whlie ago...different bubble styles have a different background color.
I really would like to know, if this is always like that or can you find both colors with both bubble types.

 

[Grant_C]

Guys.


I am waiting for some evidence. It is looking highly likely that the seals are fine and the MOCs are real.

 

[jimbody1]

I've just remembered something that may (or of course may not) be of interest to this debate.

I last bought from Toni in 2011, and they happened to be ESB German MOCs. Toni sent over photos of the ones I asked for (I won't post his exact emails) but here was my reply:

09/05/2011
Hi Toni,

Thanks for the photos. Do you happen to have a Ben Kenobi with a
normal style bubble like Chewbacca and the Ben on your site? I'm not
keen on the double stem bubbles as they break easily. In fact do you
have a Stormtrooper and Han with normal bubbles too?

Thanks,
Edd

He replied telling me that he did have the figures with the different style bubbles and sent photos a couple of days later. I have attached the photos he sent me of both kinds to this post.

So in summary, Toni had the same figures/cardbacks but with different bubble types. I'd be interested to know if any of the German collectors have seen German-sourced MOCs with both bubble types, otherwise this obviously lends to the theory that they are 'made to order' :?:

My Bossk Cardbacks have both German Price Stickers and the bubbles which were amounted were different.
There´s one thing I noticed a whlie ago...different bubble styles have a different background color.
I really would like to know, if this is always like that or can you find both colors with both bubble types.

what are the backs like are they both the same?

 

[_Lee_]

Perhaps the different bubble background could be indicative of cards being printed elsewhere in Europe?? Im not a printer,so it may be down to colour use etc,but is there a possibilty some cards were printed in Germany or elsewhere???

 

[mike-skywalker]

The backside looks equal, except the double stem blister cardbacks have slighty darker black glossier color.

 

[jimbody1]

I was thinking more in the form of text on the back is there any differences between them?

 

[lee gray]

Was not going to check this thread but saw the name Toni mentioned on last page so thought i would check back, didnt ******* think i would have to check back over 27 pages lol

Dealt with Toni many times, hes cool and love his carded figures.

Heard about you (Jason Joiner) for many years but cant be all that bad considering you run all these events which I have been to many and seen you many times although not spoken to and I intend going to many more

Dont know what to think off all this, but not too fussed really.

I also purchased a upside down bubble hoth trooper from jim stevenson at a westminster show about 15 years ago.
sold it to my mate cheap as thought it looked messed up.

now back to relaxing.

 

[Caswellbot]

Great post Lee. Made me chuckle. I have something for you mate if you wanna drop me a pm.

 

[M_Rendahl]

Still trying to get a grip over the last 10 pages, what a mess. Until then, does anyone have a pic of a worn (preferably with a price sticker) Palitoy Logray moc or cardback?

And a carded German 2-1B? Please email me at: rendahl[AT]echobase.nu


I couldnt find any posts about the unused Palitoy cardbacks, if there was some about these please point me in the right direction. The reason is I have always wondered if BillyBoy lied about having the opportunity to buy boxes and boxes of unused cardbacks, and if he wasn't lying, where in the world have they all went???

I know most variant collectors wont agree with me, but I'm sure most figure COO's could have been made anywhere. Palitoys steel mold broke, they got one from Spain they werent using. Or Palitoy: "We need 10.000 Boba Fett's", and France had an overstock of Fett's. I doubt Meccano France would have responded to Palitoy that "Hey, we cant ship you the Meccano COO Fett's, that is our marking and would confuse future collectors. This kind of wheeling and dealing between the GM companies seem very likely imo. Ok, a bit of an exhageration, but you get the idea. All I'm saying is that I think many things would be possible when it comes to figures true origins.

Mattias

 

[JuniorChubb]

If this was a court case it would have been laughed at and chucked out by now. Hearsay is not evidence, something needs to be put on the table...

The defence has not exactly shone either, but the burden of proof is not with the defence. It lies with the claimant.

 

[Michael Sith]

If this was a court case it would have been laughed at and chucked out by now. Hearsay is not evidence, something needs to be put on the table...

The defence has not exactly shone either, but the burden of proof is not with the defence. It lies with the claimant.

I agree totally...hearsay is not credible ( and they were a **** group as well)