Re-watching the prequels

Yes, Lucas gave us Star Wars, but he almost killed it too, repeatedly.

Of course Disney are about the money, they're one of the biggest companies in the world, and there's no escaping the corporate influence of ANY Hollywood movie, it's all about the $'s at the end of the day. And they need to get some of that £4bn back don't they! :lol:

However, they're giving us more Star Wars, surely that is no bad thing?

I'll reserve full judgment until I've actually seen the film, but from what I've seen and heard, I think this will see the redemption of the prequels.
 
And apparently 63% of Star Wars fans think its going to be the best film of the franchise yet!!!! :lol: :lol: :roll: :roll:
Thats a serious comment-have a look on Google!
 
I think it's only natural to be reserved about how good the new film will but for me that resrvation is wholey due to how ****ing abysmal the prequals were.
 
BlueDog said:
I think it's only natural to be reserved about how good the new film will but for me that resrvation is wholey due to how ****ing abysmal the prequals were.

Agreed.
 
Don't worry Lee, I'm here to back you up on this!

Lots to cover here. How long can a post be? :lol:

First of all, the prequels. I said back in 1999, and have maintained ever since that disappointment in the PT is due to the crazy unrealistic expectations people had. They expected to be blown away the way they were from 1977-83, forgetting that those 5-10 year old kids we were back then were now grown up and in their late 20's to mid 30's. No way could we see them the way we saw the OT. The trick to enjoying the prequels is to look at them the way we saw the OT in the theaters as kids. If we sit here and bitch about CGI that doesn't hold up more than 15 years later and poor acting (and honestly, there's plenty of effects in the OT that looked dated after 15 years as well as lots of groan inducing parts from Mark Hamill too), then we can never appreciate them for what they are. Fun movies.

Let me try and put a positive spin on them.

TPM

I actually thought the opening was the least Star Wars-y part of the entire PT. Seemed almost like a Star Trek film at first, but that changed once the ship was blown up in the hangar bay. Right off the bat, we are given lightsaber sequences that honestly blow away even the best saber scenes in the OT. These Jedi are FAST, unlike old Vader, Obi-Wan, and Luke. Leia is royalty, so her mother HAD to be royalty herself. Knowing she dies in childbirth, they HAD to make a major plot point her ascension as a leader and ultimate fall. The Naboo story works as well as any other to accomplish that. Obviously, if they're going to have the bad guys take over, for dramatic purposes they need to show their dominance and have a story to save them in the end. That's where the Gungans come in. They are the Ewoks of the PT. Maybe the Jamaican accents don't fit, but that's a MINOR gripe. Jar Jar as a plot device was needed to be a reason for the Jedi to recruit the Gungans to help the Naboo. Come on, convincing them to help by having the droid army wipe out there home is a LOT more convincing than convincing Ewoks to join the fight by having C-3PO tell the OT in 90 seconds to rally them to their cause. As far as his goofiness, he was intended to be the comic relief that the droids were in the OT. Let's face it, C-3PO in particular was the clumsy one always getting into trouble in the OT, from his whiny tantrum prior to the Jawa capture, to his misadventures with a commlink during the trash compactor scene, to getting covered in melting wires in the escape from the Death Star, to bickering with R2 on Hoth and then Han & Leia in the Falcon, to getting blown apart on Bespin and the silliness of him attached to Chewbacca's back, to his fearful whining in Jabba's Palace, to becoming a demigod on Endor. This was the intention for Jar Jar, to recapture some of that silly behaviour, but many adult fans in 1999 just couldn't see it that way (and still don't).

Anakin HAD to be a boy. They needed to establish that innocence so he could fall in love with Padme and be an apprentice long enough to become a top fighter for the Republic, before he fell to the Dark Side. Having him come from Tatooine makes sense too, as it makes for the perfect hiding spot for Luke, considering Anakin would never want to go back there willingly. As far as the Senate stuff goes, yeah, it was a little boring at times, but necessary as they needed to show how Palpatine manipulated his way through the political ranks before taking over and getting the galactic governments to fall in line behind him rather than fight him as an enemy. And there you go. The whole plot explained in a way that makes sense.

Everything else just fills in the story. The pod race was a lot of fun, despite looking cartoony in spots. Darth Maul was an awesome villain, and definitely fits in with the Star Wars feel. Watto works to show the miserable life Anakin had as a child, forming the early basis for his fears and anger. In much the same way, Shmi also laid the groundwork for his character too, which I'll explain more in my AOTC review. The droid army existed for one reason. To have a large oppressive force that justified Palpatine utilizing the clone army - which would evolve into Stormtroopers.

The only things that were really unnecessary were Qui-Gon Jinn and midichlorians. The story would have been fine with Obi-Wan as a newly trained Jedi rather than an apprentice, which would make Qui-Gon obsolete, and the midichlorians weren't necessarily bad - just not needed. I do get it though - it gave them something 'measurable' that showed just how powerful Anakin was with the Force, as opposed to an opinionated "strong with the Force is he" moment.

Was the movie perfect? Nope. But neither were the OT, especially ROTJ. Little flaws we overlook in the OT, I manage to do with this movie. The acting was sometimes spot on, sometimes cheesy - just like the OT.

AOTC

I will agree - this is the worst movie of the saga. That does NOT mean it's horrible though. Far from it. They establish right away that Padme is a thorn in the side of the Senate (and Palpatine's plans). Simultaneously, targeting Padme for assassination gives Palpatine a sympathetic reaction as Chancellor, while misleading the Jedi to his identity as surely they wouldn't believe he would target someone from his home world. Thirdly, he's been gently manipulating Anakin all along, and now that his skills are rapidly growing but not quite Jedi level yet, making Padme a target gives him a reason to reassign Anakin to security duties, where he can manipulate him more easily. I'm sure Palpatine was fully aware that Anakin was enamored with Padme, which made it all the easier.

Why was Anakin so head over heels with Padme? Well, his only protector during a rough childhood was his mother. When he left her for Jedi training, Padme took her place. She was his emotional outlet. The Jedi were strict on no emotions, but Anakin started training too late for them to curb those feelings early in life. I view his infatuation with Padme as the result of an Oedipus complex. As far as his mother goes, the Tusken Raider ambush and kidnapping of Shmi served a pivotal role. Until this point, he had only his fears and lack of confidence as issues, with the Jedi keeping other emotions down. When she died in his arms, they introduced hate, and the subsequent slaughter of the Tuskens - including women and children - just showed how the Dark Side was right there reaching out for him. Yeah, his romantic scenes with Padme were awkward, but Star Wars has never done romance well. The scenes with Han and Leia in the Echo Base corridor were equally awkward ("you could use a good kiss!" really?), and then the kiss at the end of ROTJ was FAR more like a kiss you'd give a sibling than a romantic interest. Most unromantic onscreen kiss in cinematic history. Keeping that in mind, I will admit the scenes weren't great, but I can accept them. Oh, and about Hayden's portrayal of Anakin as a whiny teenager? How else do you want him to be? The role calls for him to be rebellious, anxious, quick tempered, and insubordinate. All character traits that helped make him susceptible to the Dark Side. Yes, he was annoying - but he HAD to be that way, or no one would believe he could be turned.

I guess the next major plot line involves Kamino and the clones. More manipulation by Palpatine. He had some anonymous Jedi (Sifo Dyas) order the clone army for the Republic, to keep his name clear of involvement, and no doubt Sifo Dyas being dead by AOTC was by design so Palpatine could just recruit the clones. The timing of the order seems to be right around the timing of when Palpatine met Anakin as a boy, so you can see how he's been behind the scenes all along. He needed the clones to eventually have an army to combat the battle droids, knowing all along he had the power to shut down the droids via his agreements with Nute Gunray but requiring his own legion of live troopers. Having the clones as his own army served him well when he took over the Senate, not to mention by doing so he also managed to supply clones as military support for the Jedi, which he was successfully able to spread thin throughout the galaxy to make overthrowing them an easier challenge. Back to Kamino, it was just a plot point to explain where they came from, and a location to have Obi-Wan discover them and utilize them to assist in the battle of Geonosis.

Ahhh, Geonosis. It served two main purposes. It gave us the epic Jedi battle we would not see at any other point in the saga, and represented the first major victory to prove the clones were able to defeat a droid army while having the Jedi accept them as their backup. Actually, I guess a third point for Geonosis was to establish the Separatists and give them a leader in Count Dooku. Dooku was an interesting character. As an aging Jedi, his fall and turn to the Dark Side gave Palpatine a much more experienced apprentice than Maul, who had failed him. Dooku was a tool to help tap into Anakin's anger issues and speed up his turn. He also provided leadership strong enough for the Jedi to not really concentrate on Darth Sidious (Palpatine), sensing the need to stop the visible threat in Dooku first. Christopher Lee stole every scene he was in. For those that complain about the acting in AOTC, here was a shining example of someone who was perfect. The saber fight with Yoda was fun to watch, but failed because they made Yoda too erratic with jumpy CGI, not because Lee did anything bad with the character.

The final scene with the wedding was much deeper than just a happy ending to the movie. The undertone here was how Anakin was not buying into the Jedi way. He took attachment to the extreme by taking a wife, and by marrying Padme, created a bond rivaled only by his relationship to his mother. Once again, he used Padme to replace Shmi, so naturally, he would end up with fears of losing her as he lost his mother.

The only major character I didn't really cover here was Jango Fett. I liked the idea of having a bounty hunter target Padme, and the asteroid chase scene was easily a highlight of the movie, but I will concede I wish they didn't tie him into Boba Fett's backstory. We didn't need to see Boba. I also think it was overkill to have this same bounty hunter be the source of the clone DNA. Jango was awesome, but would have served the story better with a unique story not tied to the OT or to the clone subplot. Of course, I consider this to also be a MINOR gripe.

Again, as with TPM, AOTC really fit in well with the story. It had some terrific action scenes, the introduction of a terrific new villain (Dooku), and moved the plot along in a believable way. My only major dislike was anything to do with C-3PO in his scenes on Geonosis. That was way more cheesy than anything Jar Jar did.

ROTS

I'm not going to go into this as much as the others. For me, ROTS was just awesome. I consider it tied with ANH for my 2nd fave SW movie after ESB. Obi-Wan was terrific in everything he did. Palpatine stole the show and was incredible. Anakin was a more focused character, less whiny and more angry. His assassination of Dooku, egged on by Palpatine's taunting, gave him the satisfaction of a revenge kill and set up his turn later on. General Grievous was a great subplot, making for a very cool villain. It showed the Senate completely turn and fall behind Palpatine's dictatorship with full support. Interesting, because the Senate and those it represented, always portrayed as the "good guys" in the PT, sided with the primary villain, which by default, made the Separatists, portrayed as villains, almost good since they were fighting what became an evil empire. I find that to be a fascinating trick Lucas pulled off to blur the lines between good and evil that way.

Is there ANYONE who didn't find the immediate effects of Order 66 incredible? From Anakin assassinating children to the mass annihilation of the Jedi to Anakin assassinating the Separatist leaders, the whole sequence gave me chills. The Wookiee battle was fun and provided a good action sequence. Anakin turning on Mace Windu and subsequently being christened as Darth Vader was powerful stuff. And then what about Anakin vs Obi-Wan? The lightsaber battle was terrific. Anakin's defeat was probably the most graphic and disturbing scene in the entire saga. Yoda vs Palpatine was also great. While Yoda was still flipping in midair too much, Ian McDiarmid was sensational in his over the top glee during that fight.

The ending may have been the weakest part of the movie, although it was necessary. Anakin was so far gone he caused the death of Padme - the thing he feared most. Good for plot development, as with the realization she was dead (along with a truly horrible "NOOOOO"), he had no one left to believe in, and so fully committed himself to Palpatine (which came with a great little smile by Palpatine as he witnessed Vader's torment). Padme's death scene was badly acted by Natalie Portman (although she, above anyone else, was the worst actor in the PT in my opinion), but they did need to have us see Luke and leia, and what happened to them, to bridge the gap between the end of this film and the beginning of ANH.


So, having said all that, obviously I am a fan of the PT. It's all in the perspective you take when viewing them.

The problem I have with fandom right now is that hype that made everyone go gaga over the PT before they were released is repeating itself now with TFA. As Lee pointed out, there is a large number of people expecting this to be not just better than the PT, but better than the OT as well! That's pretty lofty expectations, and if people can't temper that excitement, it won't matter how good or bad TFA is - the fanboys will be disappointed and turn on it within 6 months of its release.

Personally, and those that know me from RS have heard this a thousand times, I am a George Lucas purist. Good or bad, I am ONLY interested in HIS ideas for the saga. I have zero interest in the Clone Wars and Rebels cartoons (and in fact saw episodes of each and hated them on their own merits anyway), I despise the EU for being nothing more than cheap hackjobs using Lucas's vision, characters, and plot points to sell their own glorified but officially condoned fan fiction, and I see TFA and EVERYTHING Disney has coming as being nothing more than big budget fan fiction. I have no interest in seeing TFA, and will be ready and waiting with "I told you so's" when it fails to pass Jurassic World for the biggest blockbuster of the year. The attempts at nostalgia by bringing back the main cast and other aspects of the OT is nothing short of a marketing tactic, designed to take this disgruntled fanbase and win it over by giving them what they miss - the story of Luke, Han, and Leia. Many express the opinion of "more SW is better than none", but I couldn't disagree more. Let the existing saga grow old and stay pure, admired by nearly everyone. Don't dilute it with movie after movie after movie, watering down the effect of the OT in particular. I hope those of you excited about it go home happy, but for me, I'd be just fine if there was never another Star Wars movie made.

Ian
 
I love you already Ian, someone who agrees with me at last. :)

Apart from the last paragraph, I'm really looking forward to the new one, more Star Wars is good for me. :p
 
Ian_C said:
Many express the opinion of "more SW is better than none", but I couldn't disagree more. Let the existing saga grow old and stay pure, admired by nearly everyone. Don't dilute it with movie after movie after movie, watering down the effect of the OT in particular. I hope those of you excited about it go home happy, but for me, I'd be just fine if there was never another Star Wars movie made.

Ian

But George Lucas wouldn't want that, he'd want to meddle about with it till it's almost a different film. There's no way on earth he'd let the OT mature in it's purity, he's like a guy with a sore tooth, he just can't leave it alone.

Star Wars is bigger than one man, it's inspired generations worldwide, it's become much bigger than he could possibly be. Surely that inspiration is a positive force, with ideas beyond that of Lucas' imagination, that shouldn't be limited to one person. One of the reasons the OT was a success is that he originally relied on several creative masters to bring it to life - Ralph McQuarrie, John Williams, Joe Johnston, John Dykstra, Laurence Kasdan... He proved to me already he's not right to take SW forward, time to hand over the torch.

We're on totally different pages Ian, and that's cool. We'll always have the OT in one form or another and I don't doubt the mans creative genius, but the SW universe has scope, enormous possibilities and they need to be explored in one form or another.

I think it's an exciting time to be a SW fan and I look forward to new adventures...
 
^^^ Agree. I look forward to the new movies but hope they are better than the turd that came out of the 90's. They have to be :)
 
Jesus, that's a massive post. I'm afraid I got bored half way through your AOTC essay, but I just can't agree. Fair play for trying to 'defend the indefensible' though.

I just can't get beyond the simple fact that all three are rank BAD movies. Granted the acting in the OT is pish, as it is in the new trilogy, the CGI is OTT and we all know what a **** up Jar Jar was. As a kid I didn't particularly find the droids funny, nor did I have any real affection for them, they were just part of the film. I didn't love them, I didn't hate them, they were just incidental characters. Jar Jar is just annoying from the first minute until the last time you see him. He's only comedic relief if you happen to certified. I've had funnier root canals!

Even ignoring all that, the three films are just bad. Looked at as run of the mill films rather than through the rose tinted specs we all view SW with, the Prequels are still piss poor films. There is very little about them as films that you could say is good. The plot is all over the shop, acting and CGI is ignored for the minute, Direction is poor, screen play is poor, the editing is woeful etc etc.


I can't remember who it was, but someone posted a link to the looks on the faces of GL, Rick McCullum and the rest when they first saw the completed version of TPM. The silence and look of shock and realisation at what they had done speaks volumes. Even GL is sat there thinking "****, what in the name of **** is that!?"

You do have a point, part of the problem is a lot of SW fans were expecting, not hoping for, expecting, the prequels to be amazing. There was no way that GL was ever going to manage to keep everyone happy, let alone live up to that level of expectations. BUT even accepting that they are all BAD films. He had so much material to work with and so much good will from the fans and he ruined it all, spectacularly.
 
SublevelStudios said:
Star Wars is bigger than one man, it's inspired generations worldwide, it's become much bigger than he could possibly be. Surely that inspiration is a positive force, with ideas beyond that of Lucas' imagination, that shouldn't be limited to one person. One of the reasons the OT was a success is that he originally relied on several creative masters to bring it to life - Ralph McQuarrie, John Williams, Joe Johnston, John Dykstra, Laurence Kasdan... He proved to me already he's not right to take SW forward, time to hand over the torch.

We're on totally different pages Ian, and that's cool. We'll always have the OT in one form or another and I don't doubt the mans creative genius, but the SW universe has scope, enormous possibilities and they need to be explored in one form or another.

I think it's an exciting time to be a SW fan and I look forward to new adventures...

This ^^^^^^^ sums it up perfectly!

Imagine for one second Star Wars without the inspired artwork of Ralph McQuarrie and Joe Johnstone or the music of John Williams. It was the perfect collaboration at the perfect time and the technology of the day dictated the look and feel of the films.

I'm not knocking George Lucas for one second, the man gave us a brilliant story but it was the team around him who moulded it into the film/s they became. I remember a quote from Lucas just before the release of TPM stating how the new film is how he would have made the original trilogy had he had the technology like CGI at his disposal back when they made ANH. Thank **** they didn't!

The look of the original film is partly a product of the tech they had at their disposal, they were highly innovative in how they went about creating a universe that looked lived in. Rusty decrepit looking ships and droids wasn't so much planned as it was a technique to cover up the shortcomings of the special effects they had to work with.

To use an analogy of sorts It'd be kind of like saying a 2015 Toyota Camry is better than a 1960's Mustang. Of course it is a far superior vehicle to drive, it possesses the latest in technology and it's shiny. But, it's boring in comparison to a classic car and lacks soul!

Just my opinion but to me the Prequels are as horrible today as they were when first released, I tried to take my son to see TPM at the cinemas last year when they re-released it, he woke me up about 40mins in and asked if we could go home.

Comparing ROTS to ANH? I'm lost for words so I'll use one of these :?
 
I knew that wouldn't be a popular post. :p

theforceuk, thanks. :) At least I'm not alone in not hating the PT.

SublevelStudios, I can't disagree on the Lucas criticisms. He has butchered the OT with mostly unnecessary updates. I do hear often though the argument that Lucas didn't do the OT by himself, using McQuarrie, Williams, etc. This is all true, but he had the original ideas those other people shaped, and he had final yay or nay on what they came up with. Yes, he had help, but the films were still mostly his. Everything post ROTS is not. Disney stuff doesn't have his input at all. Like I said, good or bad, I only have interest in what Lucas brings to the story. Therefore, I don't hate TFA or anything else on the table - I just don't have zero interest in someone else's vision. And I'm a stubborn son of a bitch, so no amount of trying will convince me otherwise. :p

You can't possibly think it's going to be good though when they have already named a character "Ello Asty", and his helmet has License To Ill written on it, obvious allusions to the Beastie Boys. I have no problems with the BB, but when you start putting those references in a STAR WARS film, where they have no place, it just gives me eyerolls. (On a side note - I am also not buying into BB-8. Seems like many love it, while I find it ridiculous).

weasel, thanks for trying to make it through the entire post. Sometimes I write novels instead of posts, lol. Of course, neither one of us has facts about the quality of the PT. We have different views on them, but in both cases, they are just opinions.

I can say that on Rotten Tomatoes, while TPM gets a middling 53% from critics, AOTC got a decent 67%, and ROTS got an excellent 80%. In comparison, while ANH and ESB get 94% and 95% respectively, ROTJ gets 79% - LESS than ROTS. That's as close as we can get to an 'expert' opinion, and only TPM got close to a negative rating.

In the end, it's all personal opinion. I get that most SW fans are bitter about the PT, and most are unrealistically looking to TFA as being some kind of transcendent experience. Respect to all of you with your thoughts, I just happen to not share them.

Ian
 
See... a healthy discussion. :D I am looking forward to the new movie, but I have no real expectation of it being better than the prequels and certainly not the originals.

To be honest I am tired of all the Lucas bashing. He is the one who created something I hold very dear. Did he **** things up?? Of course he did. Can Disney **** things up? Of course..just watch the new Fantastic Four movie. :lol: :lol:
 
Finally some George Lucas love. Let's face it until 99' he was everyones hero. Evan I can admit the prequals weren't great (although I still love ROTS) but part of me thinks someone had to mess a Star Wars film up at some point, just to see how much CGI an audience can take. :lol: Any Star Wars fan should go and watch TFA with an open mind, disney know where Lucas whent wrong. Your origional consern Edd, I don't think the new film will have any reference to the prequal triology as they know how unpopular it was. Just my genuine thoughts. :)
 
Ian_C said:
theforceuk said:
I don't think the new film will have any reference to the prequal triology as they know how unpopular it was.

But it has no problems making references to the Beastie Boys. :twisted:

Ian


If its not a daft question why are the Beastie Boys being referenced at all? What's the link? Or is JJ just a massive fan?
 
x-pack said:
Ian_C said:
theforceuk said:
I don't think the new film will have any reference to the prequal triology as they know how unpopular it was.

But it has no problems making references to the Beastie Boys. :twisted:

Ian


If its not a daft question why are the Beastie Boys being referenced at all? What's the link? Or is JJ just a massive fan?

There is a new pilot that's getting a figure called Ello Asty. In Star Wars type lettering, his helmet says Licensed To Ill on the right side. JJ is apparently known for being a BB fan, and you've got two references in one there - their album Hello Nasty for the character's name, and the phrase on the helmet is the name of their breakthrough album in 1986.

In my own opinion, a pop culture reference like that in a SW film is beyond cheesy, and will eventually make the film look dated for anyone who gets the references.

Ian
 
tiefighterboy said:
See... a healthy discussion. :D I am looking forward to the new movie, but I have no real expectation of it being better than the prequels and certainly not the originals.

To be honest I am tired of all the Lucas bashing. He is the one who created something I hold very dear. Did he **** things up?? Of course he did. Can Disney **** things up? Of course..just watch the new Fantastic Four movie. :lol: :lol:

Maybe it is because I am becoming more American but I do find it hard to argue with most of what Todd says these days

From what we have seen, the new film (s) are going to be good - will they mean as much to us as adults as the films did to us as kids, probably not but will they take us to a whole new world for a couple of hours - hopefully so

Lucas made these films possible - without him, this website, millions of FB groups and countless hours we have all spent discussing SW would be obsolete - so at least he deserves credit for that - even if Jar Jar was an abomination !
 
Lucas is a fantastic visionary but a terrible director. The prequels are testament to that - and I love the prequels. Rick 'yes man' McCallum wouldn't stand up to George.

ESB - Kasden wouldn't allow GL to go off on goofy tangents. Jedi - Marquand was a 'yes man' but thankfully others were there too to reign Lucas in.

That only leaves the original movie. Brilliant stuff but George but Marcia deserves a hell of a lot of credit for the editing process.
 
Without Mr Lucas we wouldnt be here, so bashing him isnt on. Yes, the PT was a bit off target but without the bearded wonder we could all be sitting here doing something completely different. I love Star Wars (feck- my daughter is named Hannah Leia) but i love GL Star Wars. He was and always will be my hero and i am so thankful for the childhood and memories he gave me, and also for ensuring it stayed with me. Star Wars OT is more magical, and had more of an impression on any genre or age we have ever known. Nothing will ever change that .

As for the BB reference, what the heck? On another note did he name Poe Dameron after Cameron Poe in Con Air??
 
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