PL 2017-2018 Thread

[Snaketibe]

I think there are a couple of things to consider. Firstly Spurs are the only top six side that haven't won anything of note recently, which boils down to nothing more than bad luck. All the other teams have won the league, FA cup or Champions League. Spurs, nothing. So although progress is being made, I understand the frustration about not winning anything, it is overdue. And nit-picking, 3rd-2nd-3rd/4th is actually not progress, which is what I think worries people.

Secondly, if you are talking about Spurs fans enjoying their moment of success, albeit relative success, why not? Remember 20 years of St Totteringham's day? Remember Chelsea celebrating like they'd won the league a couple of seasons ago because they drew with Spurs denying them any chance of winning the league? The other big London clubs not only have had their moments of glory in recent years, but have well and truly enjoyed kicking Spurs while they are down. So I also completely understand any animosity. It's funny how it's "a joke" when other teams do it, but ego when Spurs do.

I agree with all of that, but would also say in fairness to Spurs, this season they have had nothing but away games (say what you like, Wembley is not White Hart Lane), so to qualify for CL football next season really is a great achievement. However it's also very fair to add that what frustrates many Spurs fans is exactly what frustrates me, which is their rather negative style of play generally, where possession seems to be more important to them than creating chances, very often. And it's made ten times worse by knowing that they are quite capable of playing much better football than that.

Before poch came, it was certainly a nervy experience watching Spurs play because they were so wildly inconsistent, often with massive defensive frailties that could leak goals at any moment. Poch has changed that and there is no doubt at all that the team is vastly superior now to when he took it over. Yes, any club, I don't care who they are, can have a bad game or two, but sometimes it seems more of a mental problem with Spurs (something Poch himself said after the Man U FA Cup semi final defeat). They lack self-belief at times (and are also guilty of complacency quite often too, especially when winning or think that they've won), and it is holding them back. There will always be some fans of every club that moan when their team loses, as though they should be winning every game they ever play. However, criticism IS warranted if the players play well below par on a regular basis. And that has been the case with Spurs in the last few games; playing well below what we know they're capable of (running rings around Real Madrid, but drawing with Brighton and losing to bottom of the league West Brom?!).

I'm sure things will improve next season (I actually think they'll probably improve next game since they've made the top four and hopefully the pressure will be off them... providing the old complacency thing doesn't strike again of course!). The new stadium as their permanent home should help settle them, and hopefully that and CL football should help keep most of their best players, so I am hopeful for the future.

 

[Mr-shifter]

I am a member of a few spurs groups. The attitude of some of the fans has been rank the past couple of weeks. Go back 10 years and we were 5th/6th and then 11th. Yes we won a league cup but the past three seasons have been 3rd, 2nd, poss 3rd and two fa cup semis plus progress in the cl.

Go back 20 years and remember what it was like then.......

Spurs are making slow progress in the right direction.

I think there are a couple of things to consider. Firstly Spurs are the only top six side that haven't won anything of note recently, which boils down to nothing more than bad luck. All the other teams have won the league, FA cup or Champions League. Spurs, nothing. So although progress is being made, I understand the frustration about not winning anything, it is overdue. And nit-picking, 3rd-2nd-3rd/4th is actually not progress, which is what I think worries people.

Secondly, if you are talking about Spurs fans enjoying their moment of success, albeit relative success, why not? Remember 20 years of St Totteringham's day? Remember Chelsea celebrating like they'd won the league a couple of seasons ago because they drew with Spurs denying them any chance of winning the league? The other big London clubs not only have had their moments of glory in recent years, but have well and truly enjoyed kicking Spurs while they are down. So I also completely understand any animosity. It's funny how it's "a joke" when other teams do it, but ego when Spurs do.

I think looking over the past 20 years it is huge progress. Remember Christian gross, Jaques santini and lasagne gate. 2nds and 3rds vs constant 5ths for years (but a million miles away from 4th) vs 10 years of mid table mediocrity. And that stupid st totteringhams day bullshit. Not a sign of David pleat for years. A state of the art training ground, and now stadium, crucially in exactly the same location as the last.

How do we push on from here though?

 

[Richard_H]

None of that means however that there weren't plenty of fans carrying 'Wenger Out!' banners and shouting for him to go at both home and away matches this season, not just home ones. And as for Lloris and accusations of hypocrisy against him, he would only be a hypocrite if he had criticised others for saying the same things he has just said ('finishing in the CL is better than winning a trophy', etc.). Has he criticised others for saying that? If not, he's not a hypocrite.

There were plenty of fans wanting Wenger out and I was one. But saying that it isn't hypocrisy from Spurs is the same as saying that if each individual fan didn't boo one week and cheer the next then they're not hypocrites. It's a generalisation. For years many have lambasted Wengers statement about CL qualification. Will they do the same to Lloris? I bet CL bonus in salaries is way more than a cup win.

 

[weasel]

So who's going to nick the final spot, Pool or Chelsea? I really hope Chelsea don't sneak in, not because I particularly dislike them but Liverpool have been in the top 4 pretty much all season so (like Spurs) it would be criminal to lose it now. But, stranger things have happened...

I have no love for Chelsea either, and, well I'm a Liverpool fan. So needless to say I hope they finish fourth.
It would be typical of Liverpool to be in the top 4 for most of the season and feck it away at the end cos they took their eye off the ball. I'm assuming they lose to Real, cos Real just have a thing with CL. Saying that if you can't not lose a home game to an already safe Brighton then you don't really deserve to be in the CL.

 

[Snaketibe]

None of that means however that there weren't plenty of fans carrying 'Wenger Out!' banners and shouting for him to go at both home and away matches this season, not just home ones. And as for Lloris and accusations of hypocrisy against him, he would only be a hypocrite if he had criticised others for saying the same things he has just said ('finishing in the CL is better than winning a trophy', etc.). Has he criticised others for saying that? If not, he's not a hypocrite.

There were plenty of fans wanting Wenger out and I was one. But saying that it isn't hypocrisy from Spurs is the same as saying that if each individual fan didn't boo one week and cheer the next then they're not hypocrites. It's a generalisation. For years many have lambasted Wengers statement about CL qualification. Will they do the same to Lloris? I bet CL bonus in salaries is way more than a cup win.

Accusing someone of hypocrisy is quite a serious stain on their character. It isn't hypocrisy from Spurs (by which you presumably mean Hugo Lloris), unless he is contradicting previous views or statements that he's held / made. I don't know if he's previously criticised Wenger (or anyone else) for statements about CL qualification, and since you haven't confirmed that he has, I doubt that you do either. The definition of hypocrisy is 'a situation in which someone pretends to believe something that they do not really believe, or that is the opposite of what they do or say at another time'. Therefore, unless Lloris has previously been critical of anyone saying the things he's said today, he is not a hypocrite.

However, Lloris may indeed be lambasted by some people (idiots, IMHO) for his statement in future years; time will tell. All I can say is that I won't be one of them, just as I haven't previously personally been one of those that 'lambasted Wenger's statement about CL qualification'. Quite the contrary. Despite being a Spurs supporter, I firmly believe that Wenger has been a brilliant manager for Arsenal, and it's precisely because of Arsenal's consistent qualification for the CL under his stewardship that I hold his record in such high regard. I wish Tottenham had achieved the success that Arsenal have done under Wenger's reign. The problem is that a lot of fans quickly become used to the good times and forget what it was like in the bad. They expect constant improvement and success, and with the best will in the world that's almost impossible.

 

[Snaketibe]

I think looking over the past 20 years it is huge progress. Remember Christian gross, Jaques santini and lasagne gate. 2nds and 3rds vs constant 5ths for years (but a million miles away from 4th) vs 10 years of mid table mediocrity. And that stupid st totteringhams day bullshit. Not a sign of David pleat for years. A state of the art training ground, and now stadium, crucially in exactly the same location as the last.

How do we push on from here though?

It's tempting to say 'spend more money on players'. A tremendous amount has been achieved with the available resources they had, but Spurs are facing a tough challenge when City, United and Chelsea are happy to spend money like water every single season. Despite that however, if you total the points over the past 3 seasons, Spurs actually have the second highest total in the Premier League, just behind City (thanks to their utter dominance this season garnering them a massive points haul). Here are the totals:

City - 241
Spurs - 230
Chelsea - 213
United - 212
Liverpool - 208
Arsenal - 206

So in fact, what Spurs have achieved with what they've had is quite remarkable, and but for the massive spenders skewing everything, their record would probably be even better.

What the last 3 years do also show however is that money doesn't always talk. Yes City have won this year and Chelsea last, but it was Leicester before that. But even when it has been one of the big spenders, it hasn't always been the same one, and the others haven't always been snapping at the winner's heels. The point is that Spurs have consistently finished above at least one of the big spenders in each of the last 3 seasons (and all of them in 2015/16 when Leicester won. And it's worth pointing out that Arsenal also finished above all of the big spenders that year too of course), proving that spending money alone doesn't guarantee the title.

Should Spurs spend more money on players (new ones, or higher wages for existing ones to keep them)? Possibly. But it would be a mistake in my view to assume that this would automatically boost them to a title win.

 

[edd_jedi]

How do we push on from here though?

The first thing we need is a change in fortune. As I've already said losing 8 semi finals in a row is nothing but bad luck, it's about as unlikely as England's record in penalty shoot outs, so we are due a win. Sadly luck is something you can't buy.

One thing we can do something about is the defence. I personally think this years new signings have not been an improvement, Alderweireld has been sorely missed and Sanchez hasn't overly impressed me.

I also think Deli Alli is massively over-rated and is more trouble than he's worth, again last night he was giving it the big man routine to somebody twice his size, he needs a punch in the face to reign him in. I would sell him while he's hot and try their luck with someone else.

And PLEASE get rid of Sissoko :lol:

 

[edd_jedi]

More gold from Wenger:

"Look at the audiences of the Champions League. There's a contrast there because if you look at the audiences of the Champions League it is not fantastic.

"But if you have Real Madrid v Barcelona, or Real Madrid v Arsenal, or Manchester United v Bayern Munich every week the audiences will be good."

He still thinks it's 2004. Sorry Arsene, you're not a CL club any more.

 

[Richard_H]

I hate comments like that. Every club in the CL has earned their right to be there (same with World Cup with some former great European teams missing).

If Arsenal were good enough, they'd be there.

The Liverpool v Real Madrid final but draw a huge audience.

 

[edd_jedi]

This is interesting:

 

[edd_jedi]

I hate comments like that. Every club in the CL has earned their right to be there (same with World Cup with some former great European teams missing).

If Arsenal were good enough, they'd be there.

He would have a point if the CL was full of Burnley's and Huddersfield's which I agree may not draw a worldwide audience, but he can hardly claim any of the English teams in the competition don't have a big following. Just comes across as bitter.

 

[weasel]

This is interesting:

spend.png

So, Jose is doing a ****ing shite job then. Pretty sure I've said that a few times. Chequebook manager. Always has been. Always will be.

 

[theforceuk]

This is interesting:

spend.png

So, Jose is doing a ****ing shite job then. Pretty sure I've said that a few times. Chequebook manager. Always has been. Always will be.

I completely disagree. :lol: First Man Utd manager EVER to win a major trophy in the first season and he won two!

Don't forget Jose is rebuilding from 3 seasons of **** after Fergie retired, that table basically shows the more money a club spends the better you do. It's not quite that simple though is it. :?

 

[weasel]

Putting a side any discussion about the Carling Cup being a "major trophy" (it isn't), the team Fergy left were league winners, the bulk of that squad was still there. Not like Moyesy and LVG had done a Souness and come in and sold all the established squad and replaced them with anyone who was available. Yes, they had bought a few players, some good, some not so good, but the bulk of the squad had played under Fergy so I don't think it neded massive investment.

Besides that, the graphic shows he's spent four times what Chelsea spent and they've won a title in that time too, and may well have an FAC to add to it in a week.

Good managers make good players better. Like Pep, Klopp and Poch have done, and
I guess Conte did with a few of that Chelsea team. Bad managers come in and demand money to buy more/better replacements.

Name me a single player who has got better under Jose?

Ever heard him say he needs more time and money to fix Utd?

I rest my case.

 

[edd_jedi]

****ing hell Spurs are you trying to give me a heart attack :twisted:

Finally for the first time all season Poch makes a sensible decision and puts on another defender to protect a lead, shame he didn't do it at 4:3. Spurs are great at going forwards but so fragile at the back, and Leicester very nearly murdered them for it. Maybe a lesson learned finally?

Glad Pool got the 4th spot, TBH they probably deserved third but I'm sure both are happy enough.

 

[Snaketibe]

Talk about Spurs doing it the hard way!... Jesus!

 

[theforceuk]

Putting a side any discussion about the Carling Cup being a "major trophy" (it isn't), the team Fergy left were league winners, the bulk of that squad was still there. Not like Moyesy and LVG had done a Souness and come in and sold all the established squad and replaced them with anyone who was available. Yes, they had bought a few players, some good, some not so good, but the bulk of the squad had played under Fergy so I don't think it neded massive investment.

Besides that, the graphic shows he's spent four times what Chelsea spent and they've won a title in that time too, and may well have an FAC to add to it in a week.

Good managers make good players better. Like Pep, Klopp and Poch have done, and
I guess Conte did with a few of that Chelsea team. Bad managers come in and demand money to buy more/better replacements.

Name me a single player who has got better under Jose?

Ever heard him say he needs more time and money to fix Utd?

I rest my case.

What you on about the League cup not being a major trophie? The fact is Utd have finished 2nd for the first time since 2013 and we could have 3 major trophies in his first 2 seasons. Plus he's won the league in every job he's been in and won the European Cup with F.C. Porto and Inter Milan, not a good manager? Also won the Spanish league with 100 points during PG spell at Barcelona. I could go on, love him or hate him he's a good manager and the league cup is a major trophie, no matter what your opinion, which I fully respect, but don't think we will ever agree on this.

 

[edd_jedi]

and the league cup is a major trophie, no matter what your opinion

It depends who wins it, it wasn't when Spurs did :lol:

 

[Mr-shifter]

So much for my predictions. Good old brighton were well and truly on their holidays, Liverpool played a proper team and Chelsea bent over and let Newcastle **** them right in the arse.

It's been a funny year for spurs. Although I have enjoyed curry and drinks at the regency club before Wembley, I can't wait to get away from that stadium and back to the lane.

 

[weasel]

Glad Pool got the 4th spot, TBH they probably deserved third but I'm sure both are happy enough.

Yeah, sums it up pretty well. TBF there isn't much between Utd in second and Chelsea in fifth, in terms of ability etc. A bit came down to luck and a bit down to tactics and confidence towards the end of the season. Also Chelsea insisting on imploding and Conte fighting battles with the hierarchy didn't help their cause. Still, you wouldn't say any one of those three is massively better, or worse than the other.

What you on about the League cup not being a major trophie? The fact is Utd have finished 2nd for the first time since 2013 and we could have 3 major trophies in his first 2 seasons. Plus he's won the league in every job he's been in and won the European Cup with F.C. Porto and Inter Milan, not a good manager? Also won the Spanish league with 100 points during PG spell at Barcelona. I could go on, love him or hate him he's a good manager and the league cup is a major trophie, no matter what your opinion, which I fully respect, but don't think we will ever agree on this.

I've said for years the Carling cup isn't a major trophy, it's nice to win but it's little more than a trinket. And I have said that when Liverpool play in (and lose) finals in it.

Jose has won 1 EL, 1 FAC, and possibly another this season. That's not what Manchester United call success, especially not when you fork our HALF A ****ING BILLION POUNDS.

As for Jose, I didn't say he was a "bad manager". I said bad managers come in and demand more money, good managers work with what they have, improve them and drive progress that way.

Jose's spell at Inter is hard to judge as it was right after the match fixing scandal and I think I'm right in saying Juve, Lazio and Fiorentina were relegated to Seria B and AC and Roma started with huge point penalties. That pretty much left Inter as the only team in the league. Yes, they won it and fair dos, but it's like Celtic winning the SPL. They don't get any credit for it cos they bloody should win it, it's a 1 team league.
Fair enough winning the CL with Inter was an achievement, I won't argue with that.

As for Porto winning the CL, yeah, again it was a great achievement though **** me he was lucky. I remember them beating Utd at OT. Porto scored an offside goal and Scholesy had one disallowed for no reason, either of those decisions go against Porto, Utd win and Jose doesn't get the blank cheque book at Chelsea. Jose doesn't get the blank chequebook at Chelsea means Jose doesn't get the Inter job when there is no one else in Seria A worth talking about. Which in turn means he doesn't get the Real job.
He has been a VERY lucky manager and, bar Porto has always had money to spend. Even at that, by Portuguese standards Porto aren't exactly a poor club. Ok there is the old quote from Napoleon "don't give me good generals give me lucky generals." Maybe a 'lucky' manager is what every club wants, I just think Jose has had a huge dollop of it in his career and yet he is still a horrible hateful man.

So far at Utd he has spent a shed load of money and all he has to show for it is a EL and an FAC. I can't help but think how Poch or Jurgen would have done had they been given that money over 2/3 years and had started with the squad Jose inherited. One thing is for sure, the football wouldn't be so eye gougingly, soul destroying dull.

don't think we will ever agree on this.

Yeap, I think you're right!