indianawars
Sith Lord
I not sure if you're really helping your case - you seem to be extremely money orientated, 'How much can I buy it for, how much can I sell it for, how much will I lose.' - This doesn't really bode well here.
UK Graders Announcement
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itfciain
Grand Master
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I think that you are missing the point as to why so many people in the community are against U-grading
Firstly, you are right - and sadly so - people will only pay $30-40 for a damaged MOC yet double that for a Ugraded figure. In all honestly, more fool them. However if you encourage them to do this then you create a demand for these figures - and then people's perceptions of what is a 'damaged card' get lower and they (like you) focus more on the money element rather than the general good of the hobby
Unfortunately there are plenty of people out there that think like you - they are not collecting for the joy of owning a piece of Star Wars history they are collection for financial gains
Firstly, you are right - and sadly so - people will only pay $30-40 for a damaged MOC yet double that for a Ugraded figure. In all honestly, more fool them. However if you encourage them to do this then you create a demand for these figures - and then people's perceptions of what is a 'damaged card' get lower and they (like you) focus more on the money element rather than the general good of the hobby
Unfortunately there are plenty of people out there that think like you - they are not collecting for the joy of owning a piece of Star Wars history they are collection for financial gains
There have always been a subset of collectors who would open a battered card to add a 'mint' figure with a genuine accessory to their collection. However, AFA-U grading has completely mechanised this and allowed people to send in multiples of 1 figure (DSD is a good example) to be opened in the hope that 1 or 2 get the coveted U90 - and the 70s and 80s are almost disgarded as junk. It is this attitude which upsets most people (including me).
The search for an arbitrary number on a figure is what is driving many AFA collectors, rather than the desire for a mint figure.
Then when you add in other factors such as less wealthy or younger collectors not being able to enter the MOC 'world' as great swathes of lower grade cards are being destroyed, or rare variations being accidentally destroyed, then it all starts to feel very much like something rather un-related to a group of collectors who prize originality.
The search for an arbitrary number on a figure is what is driving many AFA collectors, rather than the desire for a mint figure.
Then when you add in other factors such as less wealthy or younger collectors not being able to enter the MOC 'world' as great swathes of lower grade cards are being destroyed, or rare variations being accidentally destroyed, then it all starts to feel very much like something rather un-related to a group of collectors who prize originality.
Your argument seems to be that U grading is/was the solution to reducing financial loss when an item gets damaged. Again I understand your frustration, I'm sure we've all lost money either as buyers or sellers due to damage in transit, but that's just a risk we take collecting fragile 30 year old toys. You will lose out financially on some of your purchases, that's just life. Just as you will make money sometimes too.
At first: OK - I'm just money orientated 
It's in my genes ... excuse me
But that not makes me a bad collector. I need to tell you that my focus is on foreign figures (loose and MOC). Glasslite, Harbert and that stuff.
Most of that figures are very expensive. So I use my knowledge about Star Wars and buy regular Kenner collections to sell them with profit.
I do this because with a regular salary I never could collect those foreign and cool stuff So judge me if you want. I am what I am
It's not only the money (but too) that get lost with a broken MOC. Money we can replace. But a broken MOC is lost :-(
If I see a broken MOC my heart is bleeding. And in the past (before there was grading companies) it was always bad to see when this MOC's was open by people
because nobody wanted them in that bad condition but out of their bubble they've bring just more money than in the former condition (strange but true).
In my eyes the U-Grade was a kind to bring the respect to those figures back. They wasn't really MOC's anymore but then they was in a good looking acrylic case and still "uncirculated". This will get lost now ... it's pity I think. Only my opinion.
It's in my genes ... excuse me But that not makes me a bad collector. I need to tell you that my focus is on foreign figures (loose and MOC). Glasslite, Harbert and that stuff.
Most of that figures are very expensive. So I use my knowledge about Star Wars and buy regular Kenner collections to sell them with profit.
I do this because with a regular salary I never could collect those foreign and cool stuff
So judge me if you want. I am what I am It's not only the money (but too) that get lost with a broken MOC. Money we can replace. But a broken MOC is lost :-(
If I see a broken MOC my heart is bleeding. And in the past (before there was grading companies) it was always bad to see when this MOC's was open by people
because nobody wanted them in that bad condition but out of their bubble they've bring just more money than in the former condition (strange but true).
In my eyes the U-Grade was a kind to bring the respect to those figures back. They wasn't really MOC's anymore but then they was in a good looking acrylic case and still "uncirculated". This will get lost now ... it's pity I think. Only my opinion.
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What a load of nonsense, ban U grading full stop.
This hobby for me and many others is about preserving what is left.
No hard feelings Ferreira and welcome to the forum.
This hobby for me and many others is about preserving what is left.
No hard feelings Ferreira and welcome to the forum.
jedisearcher
Sith Lord
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- Feb 26, 2012
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- 1,450
Ferreira said:
See, it all went wrong for me there.
Insure your posted stuff properly. Then you won't lose out.
If you get a "destroyed MOC", then sell it as what it is. There are people who will buy that off you. Yes, for less money than a pristine one, but they'll take it and besides, you'll have your insurance money. You won't lose out. You're money obsessed, so pay the insurance and then reduce your risk.
And as to the term "destroyed MOC", I'm sorry but that's complete bull. A figure on a "destroyed MOC" wouldn't be worth U grading, it's "destroyed" right? You mean damaged, and people buy those. Bye bye your logic.
You might think you're justifying why badly damaged MOC's might be worth U grading, but you're forgetting all of the toe-rags who send perfectly acceptable, decent MOC's to be destroyed simply for their own gain.
Sooner U grading is gone, the better. I've never seen something so divisive in a community.
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This thread will end up getting locked down, so I'm staying out of it.
Ferreira said:
Don't misunderstand me. I hate people that let open a MOC for a U-Grade, full stop.
Mr-shifter
Sith Lord
Let me get this straight. You are worried about U grading being taken away because if you buy a MOC in the post and it gets damaged you have no way of getting your money back.
Sorry mate but that is a load of ****. Get insurance and ask them to make sure its packaged properly. You are saying you only send MOCs you deem rubbish in for U grading, well its the ten other people who are sending in MOCs that are perfectly good in because if they get a high grade some cock end will pay a premium for it. U grading is exclusively about the money for the people that sell. Pure greed.
Such a selfish point of view. Luckily you are in the minority and this change of stance from UKG shows that the tide is changing.
Sorry mate but that is a load of ****. Get insurance and ask them to make sure its packaged properly. You are saying you only send MOCs you deem rubbish in for U grading, well its the ten other people who are sending in MOCs that are perfectly good in because if they get a high grade some cock end will pay a premium for it. U grading is exclusively about the money for the people that sell. Pure greed.
Such a selfish point of view. Luckily you are in the minority and this change of stance from UKG shows that the tide is changing.
Was only a example with the shipping accidents. Could be a water accident in the house or the dog wanna play with it (whatever)
Don't blame me please
But I think the banning of U-grade will not resolve the problem. Like a lot of you just told: Most of the people that let make a U-Grade do it for money.
I agree. That's 100% right. And everybody can judge about this in a kind he want.
So what will be happen if there is no U-Grade anymore (OK there still is ... AFA still do... but imagine they don't).
Remember the time before there was any grading company ? There was the same problem: Most collectors don't wanted to pay for a beaten MOC.
And most of the buyers that bought him, bought him because they wanted to open him to have a "near mint" figure. So the MOC and the uncirculated figure was lost.
Like a collector told me today in a german forum: "Sometimes I think it's easier to sell a good loose figure than a beaten MOC. Crazy world"
So I think the people will open again those kind of MOC's and sell them that way or send them after opening to any Grading company.
The MOC's still will gets lost - but they don't will be "uncirculated" anymore. They will be lost forever.
And please have some mercy with me ... I know I'm perhaps the only one that think that kind here But whatever. I like to discuss and I like to hear other opinions.
And with one I'll agree 100%: If somebody use the U-Grade to let open good MOC's it's a shame.
The prices for beaten MOC's just were down before Steve told "No U-Grade anymore". And this will continue....
And if somebody like to collect those MOC's (is a cutted card still a MOC - perhaps a MO because there is no cardback anymore ) he can going on collect - like before.
But if I have a MOC at home that was for my collection (and I only collect them in fine condition) is broken (by whatever) I'm sad.
There were some I've let U-Grade (if there wasn't anything to rescue anymore). If I don't wanna use AFA I need to drop those figures now in a corner (because I never would sell them for a few bucks and I don't wanna open an uncirculated figure) and need to buy the same figure again in good condition. Perhaps for some people that's good for their hobby.
For my hobby that is bad
OK - it isn't a disaster for me. I'm not a U-Grade collector and I'm not need to see the U on every figure. But it always was the emergency way to save a former MOC that would be lost without this way. Hope some understand what I try to tell ?
So please don't judge me the wrong way. I'm a good client of Steve and everybody can ask him. I send a lot of MOC's in there (and of course NOT for U-Grade) and a lot of loose stuff. U-Grade always was the emergency way. Always when I've got a poor MOC (and I mean really poor - poor that way that "MOC" not is the right word anymore) I'm always was thinking: Thx god... he's not lost. Steve will save him.
Finally: If collectors use U-Grade the right way it wasn't a devil's invention. But unfortunally there was a lot of people that have misuse the U-Grade. They will continue... but we'll don't see it anymore. Trust me...
Don't blame me please
But I think the banning of U-grade will not resolve the problem. Like a lot of you just told: Most of the people that let make a U-Grade do it for money.
I agree. That's 100% right. And everybody can judge about this in a kind he want.
So what will be happen if there is no U-Grade anymore (OK there still is ... AFA still do... but imagine they don't).
Remember the time before there was any grading company ? There was the same problem: Most collectors don't wanted to pay for a beaten MOC.
And most of the buyers that bought him, bought him because they wanted to open him to have a "near mint" figure. So the MOC and the uncirculated figure was lost.
Like a collector told me today in a german forum: "Sometimes I think it's easier to sell a good loose figure than a beaten MOC. Crazy world"
So I think the people will open again those kind of MOC's and sell them that way or send them after opening to any Grading company.
The MOC's still will gets lost - but they don't will be "uncirculated" anymore. They will be lost forever.
And please have some mercy with me ... I know I'm perhaps the only one that think that kind here
But whatever. I like to discuss and I like to hear other opinions.And with one I'll agree 100%: If somebody use the U-Grade to let open good MOC's it's a shame.
The prices for beaten MOC's just were down before Steve told "No U-Grade anymore". And this will continue....
And if somebody like to collect those MOC's (is a cutted card still a MOC - perhaps a MO because there is no cardback anymore
) he can going on collect - like before.But if I have a MOC at home that was for my collection (and I only collect them in fine condition) is broken (by whatever) I'm sad.
There were some I've let U-Grade (if there wasn't anything to rescue anymore). If I don't wanna use AFA I need to drop those figures now in a corner (because I never would sell them for a few bucks and I don't wanna open an uncirculated figure) and need to buy the same figure again in good condition. Perhaps for some people that's good for their hobby.
For my hobby that is bad
OK - it isn't a disaster for me. I'm not a U-Grade collector and I'm not need to see the U on every figure. But it always was the emergency way to save a former MOC that would be lost without this way. Hope some understand what I try to tell ?
So please don't judge me the wrong way. I'm a good client of Steve and everybody can ask him. I send a lot of MOC's in there (and of course NOT for U-Grade) and a lot of loose stuff. U-Grade always was the emergency way. Always when I've got a poor MOC (and I mean really poor - poor that way that "MOC" not is the right word anymore) I'm always was thinking: Thx god... he's not lost. Steve will save him.
Finally: If collectors use U-Grade the right way it wasn't a devil's invention. But unfortunally there was a lot of people that have misuse the U-Grade. They will continue... but we'll don't see it anymore. Trust me...
Point taken Edd.
In 15 years of collecting that has not been my experience and I have not seen any evidence of that outside the Ugrade catastrophe.
Ferreira said:
In 15 years of collecting that has not been my experience and I have not seen any evidence of that outside the Ugrade catastrophe.
Mr-shifter
Sith Lord
I think where we don't see eye to eye here is that you seem to saying that we will be losing uncirculated figures. No one really cares for u grades on this forum, so you are the only one who thinks its a shame that a figure gets taken off a card and doesn't get a u grade.
A U90 is no different to a 90.
Fair play for coming on with your point of view and reasons. I don't agree with any to them but thats my opinion only. I will save you a bit of time here as you aren't going to change anyones opinion on this matter.
On a different note, it would be nice to see some of your collection if you have some pics.
A U90 is no different to a 90.
Fair play for coming on with your point of view and reasons. I don't agree with any to them but thats my opinion only. I will save you a bit of time here as you aren't going to change anyones opinion on this matter.
On a different note, it would be nice to see some of your collection if you have some pics.
No - I don't want to change anybody mind, of course.
I'm only was interested in discuss about this. There is always a dark side and a light side ;-)
So was really interesting to hear all your opinions and was nice that you let tell me my arguments without blame me.
I agree to 99% with all of you. The last 1% is only the worry about those damaged (really damaged) MOC's.
It's a nice forum. In Germany we have a forum, too ... but if anyboday have another opinion then the "elite" there, then they make a witch hunt on him.
I think it's nice to discuss with other collectors and here other opinions - still or especially if they R not the same as the own.
This makes collecting Star Wars so interesting. There is nearly no other hobby with those number of different collectors.
I'm only was interested in discuss about this. There is always a dark side and a light side ;-)
So was really interesting to hear all your opinions and was nice that you let tell me my arguments without blame me.
I agree to 99% with all of you. The last 1% is only the worry about those damaged (really damaged) MOC's.
It's a nice forum. In Germany we have a forum, too ... but if anyboday have another opinion then the "elite" there, then they make a witch hunt on him.
I think it's nice to discuss with other collectors and here other opinions - still or especially if they R not the same as the own.
This makes collecting Star Wars so interesting. There is nearly no other hobby with those number of different collectors.
Mr-shifter
Sith Lord
You are right, and you will find this forum and the words "elite collectors" couldn't be further apart.
We have a diverse selection of people here, and a great moderation policy that allows genuine debate and discussion to take place. There are always two sides to a story and personal opinions are just that.
You did pick to argue for the one subject though that people here are extremely passionate about.
We have a diverse selection of people here, and a great moderation policy that allows genuine debate and discussion to take place. There are always two sides to a story and personal opinions are just that.
You did pick to argue for the one subject though that people here are extremely passionate about.
Ferreira said:
I disagree. Well, I agree in a way, that most collectors would prefer a mint carded figure. However, many collectors don't have that luxury! SW prices have gone crazy - I worked hard and have a good enough job, but I couldnt begin to touch some of the MOMC prices these days... $5k for a 21bk Fett, nope? So, I'd look for something which was much less mint, in order to have an example.
Years ago I put together 11 of the 12 back figures on a budget - I had cracked bubbles, sticker tears and creases. Some of the rarer cards were pretty poor by MOMC standards. But this was the only way I could do it on a budget.
Removing the 'beaters' from the market makes the hobby far more elitist, IMO, and much harder for new collectors to get a foothold in. Removing beaters and that first step is terrible for the hobby - if new blood cant be introduced, then what happens? It all stagnates and eventually dies.
walkie
Sith Lord
- Joined
- Dec 10, 2012
- Messages
- 2,954
Ferreira, I'm guessing these items are yours in which case it's clear to see that 'money' controls your collecting habits....
Is it just me but grading a loose figure with a damaged card just looks ****, as for the TT fett even with a half-ass disclaimer, come on $2000 ?!?!?!
Is it just me but grading a loose figure with a damaged card just looks ****, as for the TT fett even with a half-ass disclaimer, come on $2000 ?!?!?!
Princess Raya
Padawan
A healthy debate should always involve hearing both sides of the story. So thank you Ferreira. It was good of you to make the case for U grading in this forum. I really believe it has contributed to the discussion because it has helped others put together some eloquent and logical reasons why they are against it.
I'm new to collecting so could easily have been sucked into U grading, but now I have been well informed and will not go down that path. This is why logical arguments are so important. I don't want to feel pressured into something. But I believe that the anti U graders have some very good points and I have made my own decision never to get involved with U grading.
I'm new to collecting so could easily have been sucked into U grading, but now I have been well informed and will not go down that path. This is why logical arguments are so important. I don't want to feel pressured into something. But I believe that the anti U graders have some very good points and I have made my own decision never to get involved with U grading.
