mr_palitoy
Sith Lord
Lee77 said:
Yes, they are on the list already.
cheers Jason
Resealed figure discovery debate - G.Kurtz Palitoy VC Jawa.
- Thread starter Grant_C
- Start date
Yes, they are on the list already.
cheers Jason
mr_palitoy
Sith Lord
Lee77 said:
Arthur has been confirmed as deceased by Toni and also by Jason Joiner about 7 years ago.
Different Bailey maybe?
cheers Jason
mr_palitoy
Sith Lord
Have overhauled the guide with bubble examples for all card variations and also some more info about where all the various cards originate from.
As well as appearing on 65d, the square bubbles with rectangular corners that Tonis uses are also found on shop sold 65c cards.
cheers Jason
As well as appearing on 65d, the square bubbles with rectangular corners that Tonis uses are also found on shop sold 65c cards.
cheers Jason
mr_palitoy said:
What I'm getting at is that most of the Luke Bespins that I've seen are either tri bubbles or the square edged bubbles that come on a lot of tt cards.
Supposing Toni has sealed them all, that would suggest that he's sealed tri logo bubbles too. Who's to say tri logo cardbacks aren't on the pages (conveniently) missing from JJ's list?
There seems to be no pattern as to why some 45c's appear with mainly tri bubbles whilst others have all sorts.
Are all Luke Bespins that are graded highly, suspicious or just certain bubble types?
mr_palitoy
Sith Lord
Lee77 said:
The square edged bubbles are Tonis, the ones with Tri Logo bubbles are believed to be UK cards sent to Spain that were sealed with tri logo bubbles
and PBP figures (well that is at least the case for han hoth).
There's no evidence of Toni having tri logo bubbles or cardbacks yet. Though you would think a few would be kicking about when
they cleared out the closed factory.
cheers Jason
mr_palitoy said:
It's too much of a coincidence!
Arthur Bailey born 1951
Samuel Bailey born 1980
Both registered on the same company in Huddersfield with Antoni Emcowitz.
And the electoral register has them still living at the same address today.
The report I got has a 'Mortality' section and states that there are no records of AB being deceased.
Btw, you might be onto something regarding tri bubbles packed in Spain, but the Luke Bespins I used to own (both hair colours) aren't PBP figures.
What a mess. TT needs to try and sort this **** storm out.
Lee77 said:
its deffo the right arthur but the electoral shows no arthur today & by the looks of it he deceased circa 2008 ;-) see my post on previous page :wink:
just too add my wee mam died early 2012 and her name is still attached to my old mans address and name on the electoral
jedisearcher
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.
edit: Jumping to conclusions :wink:
edit: Jumping to conclusions :wink:
jay4 said:
I reckon you're right Jay. Shame, cos I thought I was onto something........
panastur said:
It makes no sense to send cards from the Uk to Spain for packaging, and for them to be sent back to the uk. I was told a while back that the Luke Bespins are not Pbp figures.
mr_palitoy
Sith Lord
Lee77 said:
There are other figures with tri logo bubbles like walrus man.
These are not thought to originate from Toni.
Cheers Jason
mr_palitoy
Sith Lord
panastur said:mr_palitoy said:
...... :shock: ... :? ... :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Something funny?
Cheers Jason
mr_palitoy said:
My walrusman came from Toni and that had a tri logo bubble.
Toni must have had legit mocs. I have an R2 from him, not on the list of Jason's. and a regular stormtrooper with a twin stem which I'm pretty sure is legit.
The problem is knowing what has originated from him factory sealed and non factory sealed.
I was going through my old emails from him (about 200) and not once does he mention the terms moc or factory sealed!
mr_palitoy
Sith Lord
Lee77 said:
Lee Bullock said there were loads of tri logo walrusman kicking about at collectors fairs in the 90s so Toni wasn't the only source of these.
I have one and the seal looks fine unlike all my Tonis.
cheers Jason
Ok
So going from that, does that make all tri bubbles on 45/65 Rotj cards ok?
Is the seal on yours the same as all tri bubbles, whether they came from Toni or not.
It seems like a way to at least eliminate some of these dubious cards.
I still have a shop bought Leia Hoth with a tri bubble. Might be worth comparing seals with a TT tri bubble?
So going from that, does that make all tri bubbles on 45/65 Rotj cards ok?
Is the seal on yours the same as all tri bubbles, whether they came from Toni or not.
It seems like a way to at least eliminate some of these dubious cards.
I still have a shop bought Leia Hoth with a tri bubble. Might be worth comparing seals with a TT tri bubble?
spoons
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mr_palitoy said:panastur said:mr_palitoy said:
...
Something funny?
Cheers Jason
I'd assume the laughing refers to 'PBP' - a lot of the figures we refer to as PBP are of disputed origin, but generally agreed to be European.
Personally I don't see the issue, oddly painted figures with unique weapons sold for the Euro market - definitely Holland based on the catalogue attached to some cards, and presumably Spain too
If that isn't the reason for the laughter I'll shut up
mr_palitoy
Sith Lord
Lee77 said:
Tri logo bubbles have been seen on 45c, 65a, 65b, 65c and 65d cards. Havent seen a Toni with a Tri Logo bubble yet.
Havent compared the seal with other tri logo seals, I think I have a tri logo 2-1b I could compare against. It does look
different to all the Toni seals I have.
cheers Jason
mr_palitoy said:
I've just checked my emails and I've had 2 from him. Both Jedi. A 45 back walrusman with a tri bubble that I sold last year and a 65 back Han Hoth that I sold ages ago. This was tri bubble and pale face (PBP?) figure.
I'm just thinking that if he's managed to seal tri logo bubbles then it becomes even more of a mess.
Toni has sold loads of walrusman and Han hoths over the years with these bubbles
mr_palitoy
Sith Lord
Lee77 said:
Lee Bullock said both walrusman and han hoth were available in large numbers back in the day. As a toy dealer toni would have got hold of some.
So I think they are both ok.
cheers Jason
spoons
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Lee77 said:
I think the pale face Han Hoths on 45s and 65s with Tri bubbles are one of the safest bets out there. Plenty of beaters, some with Clipper catalogues and most with pale faced Hans with a stormtrooper blaster - clearly late European stock.
I didn't realise that Toni was selling them, but they may represent some of the carded overstock - interesting that so much material destined for overseas remained at the factory
The regular Han Hoths exist in much lower nos and there may be something to worry about there
mr_palitoy said:panastur said:mr_palitoy said:
...
Something funny?
Cheers Jason
Sorry Jason, it's not funny at all. Just a bit ironic... and referring only at your comment, not the person. Really, no offence here.
I am just sad and a bit tired to read those unfounded comments based on rumours and false presumptions....
Depending the person who proclaim it, it uses to end as matter of fact...and sometimes published in a book as it.
Voluntary or not, Jason, you are in this category of trusted persons. Your words weight a lot in our community...
As Lee77 said, it's a nonsense. Now, it would be more logical that PBP sent part of its local production to be packaged in the UK... THIS is more plausible but again, unproven.
Again Jason, sorry if i offended you. It was not my intention...
JC
spoons said:
Yep, a lot of theories are out-there... That's not a problem. The problem comes when it's taken as community consensus...
Now, i am not a loose/COO expert, i am far from that!!! If people says that the "Pale Face" Han Hoth is a spanish production, then there are reasons to believe that PBP exported its production to UK, as the spanish company done with France, where some spanish figures were packaged on french Trilogo cards. i.e. Luke X-Wing Pilot, AT-AT Commander, ... and labeled these cards with a little "Made in Spain" white sticker.
JC :?
mr_palitoy
Sith Lord
panastur said:mr_palitoy said:panastur said:...
Something funny?
Cheers Jason
Sorry Jason, it's not funny at all. Just a bit ironic... and referring only at your comment, not the person. Really, no offence here.
I am just sad and a bit tired to read those unfounded comments based on rumours and false presumptions....
Depending the person who proclaim it, it uses to end as matter of fact...and sometimes published in a book as it.
Voluntary or not, Jason, you are in this category of trusted persons. Your words weight a lot in our community...
As Lee77 said, it's a nonsense. Now, it would be more logical that PBP sent part of its local production to be packaged in the UK... THIS is more plausible but again, unproven.
Again Jason, sorry if i offended you. It was not my intention...
JC
Was quoting what was thought to be the explanation for these at the time I made that update.
If you have newer information, please let me know.
cheers Jason
mr_palitoy
Sith Lord
spoons said:Lee77 said:
I think the pale face Han Hoths on 45s and 65s with Tri bubbles are one of the safest bets out there. Plenty of beaters, some with Clipper catalogues and most with pale faced Hans with a stormtrooper blaster - clearly late European stock.
I didn't realise that Toni was selling them, but they may represent some of the carded overstock - interesting that so much material destined for overseas remained at the factory
The regular Han Hoths exist in much lower nos and there may be something to worry about there
Have added that sticker and also your 65d double clipper sticker to the guide.
cheers Jason
mr_palitoy
Sith Lord
Since the Han Hoth/PBP/Tri logo bubble/spanish thing seems to be in debate, I have chnaged the blurb on the 45c page to say:-
http://www.freewebs.com/mrpalitoy/rotj45ccardback.htm
"This card variation used double stemmed bubbles. There are also examples of the larger Tri-Logo style bubble appearing on this card but they are not very common. There are a lot of Tri-Logo bubbles found on Walrus Man. The Han Solo Hoth shown here is a PBP figure which indicates that the cards may have been produced for the Spanish market. Some of them had the small Clipper sticker shown above on the back."
cheers Jason
http://www.freewebs.com/mrpalitoy/rotj45ccardback.htm
"This card variation used double stemmed bubbles. There are also examples of the larger Tri-Logo style bubble appearing on this card but they are not very common. There are a lot of Tri-Logo bubbles found on Walrus Man. The Han Solo Hoth shown here is a PBP figure which indicates that the cards may have been produced for the Spanish market. Some of them had the small Clipper sticker shown above on the back."
cheers Jason
spoons
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an odd one indeed, and I've seen the debate a few times on various forums. To me pale faced and pink faced Han's are PBP figures but Sapanish collector's generally dispute that (and you would assume that they are the ones in the know).
I wonder if the Spanish figures were sent to the UK to go to other European markets hence all the Clipper stickers, but were never sold in Spain.
Odd also that out of all the 65s the D card is the one without European text on the front but is clearly still sent abroad.
Why did they bother making the change?
But I digress - back to the Toni business
I wonder if the Spanish figures were sent to the UK to go to other European markets hence all the Clipper stickers, but were never sold in Spain.
Odd also that out of all the 65s the D card is the one without European text on the front but is clearly still sent abroad.
Why did they bother making the change?
But I digress - back to the Toni business
mr_palitoy
Sith Lord
Have been looking at palitoy 45c Boba Fetts.
I reckon the majority of double stemmed cards for these are Tonis.
They are both plentiful and in tip top minty condition.
The double stem bubble he uses is narrower and like the ones used on the 45B variation.
The shop sold cards and bubble imprints on used cardbacks are wider.
This is a shop sold double stem boba:-
Compare that to a Toni:-
And the used cardbacks with factory seal imprints (the 2 bottom cards):-
The shop sold and used cardback bubbles are wider.
Have added the above to the writeup on my guide:-
http://www.freewebs.com/mrpalitoy/rotj45ccardback.htm
cheers Jason
I reckon the majority of double stemmed cards for these are Tonis.
They are both plentiful and in tip top minty condition.
The double stem bubble he uses is narrower and like the ones used on the 45B variation.
The shop sold cards and bubble imprints on used cardbacks are wider.
This is a shop sold double stem boba:-
Compare that to a Toni:-
And the used cardbacks with factory seal imprints (the 2 bottom cards):-
The shop sold and used cardback bubbles are wider.
Have added the above to the writeup on my guide:-
http://www.freewebs.com/mrpalitoy/rotj45ccardback.htm
cheers Jason
Simply Sci-fi
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Hello to all. This is my first post here.
Although the issue of the "Tony" cards has been running for quite some time, I have only just become aware of it. I thought that I would contribute something, because my recollections might be of help in ascertaining exactly what happened all of those years ago. I'm sorry that I have not had time to read all of the posts, so forgive me if I am covering old ground, especially as people seem to have posted some of my personal emails without telling me.
For people who don't know me, I am a long standing Star Wars fan and collector. I used to run the U.K.Star Wars Fan Club with Jason Joiner and a group of other fans. I was Club Chairman, a staff writer and my collection was a major source of material. Jason was the club promotions man (deal closer, etc), writer and his collection was an even bigger source of material. I have amassed quite a large Star Wars collection, some of which can be seen at http://www.flickr.com/photos/12871619@N03/sets/72157624878003505/
One of my major purchases occurred when Jason supplied me with 212 Palitoy carded Boba Fett figures. The number 212 was quoted in the Marvel Star Wars comic story "Star Search" as being the number of Mandalorians that fought against the Jedi in the Clone Wars (which of course has been discarded in the new canon). Jason may have bought more from his source, being convinced that I would take the lot but I stuck to 212 which was the size if the army. Jason also bought a large number of carded Snowtroopers around the same time as he had a stack of them in his loft, but I have no idea of the style or quality of the packaging they were in. Jason and I were each collecting an Imperial army at the time and I assumed that Jason had bought them for this reason.
The Boba Fett figures were supplied to me in ordinary boxes, one of which I still have. It is for "Lyon's Ready Brek", with a best before end date of February 1988. In addition to the "Ready Brek" box, I still own a number of the backing cards and bubbles, some of which are still partially attached. Jason did not issue me with sales receipt. The figures were all on identical punched Palitoy Return of the Jedi 45 back cards with a "Free Nien Nunb" offer on the back. There is a red glob next to Chewbacca. The figures inside were all the light coloured version of Boba Fett that was issued in Palitoy/Tri Logo packaging. I have no doubt that the figures were left-over stock because that variation was too difficult to find in that kind of quantity with weapons on the second-hand market.
The bubbles were of a two-stemmed style which was too small to comfortably accommodate a Boba Fett figure. All of the bubbles had not attached properly (probably because of this reason) and although the majority had still clung on the card, they were hanging by a thread. Many of the bubbles were crinkled along the edge, as if too much heat had been applied. Also many of the backing cards had identical marks across the front, seemingly from a machine of some kind (The upside down Snowtrooper on page 93 has similar marks). The figures were not even close to being MOC and if they had have been, Jason could probably have made some phone calls to collectors/fellow dealers and raised more cash selling them such, as they would have been worth a lot more than the £1-2 he charged me. I was a trader myself to a much smaller degree and if I'd got my hands on 212 MOC Boba Fetts I'd have chucked them on a stall at the next Westminster fair. Jason only bought the Fetts because he knew I was a cert for buying them and it is a marvel of his business mind that he remembered our conversation regarding the Mandalorian army. Jason may have attempted to sell some of the Boba Fetts that I did not buy because of James Simmonds' memories.
The theory put forward that left-over cards, bubbles and figures were put together by a company outside of Palitoy on behalf of a dealer would seem to fit very well. I have always wondered why in 1983 Palitoy had made such a big mistake in attempting to issue Boba Fett on the wrong packaging style and why their machinery had caused damage to the bubble and card. An outside company might have made mistakes such as this and then go on to improve the process. Or perhaps one dealer attempted to have some figures resealed and gave up before another dealer was more successful. As a model builder and a crafter myself, I cannot imagine anyone sitting down and individually sealing hundreds of bubbles and backing cards. It really needs to be a machine process (This would also explain the upside down Snowtroopers). It would not be worth anyone's while, sealing them individually for pennies. And it would have been obvious after the first attempts attaching them by hand that the process was not working. The Fetts and Snowtroopers could well be a failed experiment by dealer 1. Dealer 2 has the same Boba Fett lose figures, cards and bubbles and gets a better result elsewhere. I had also wondered why the Boba Fetts had not been stored in Palitoy produced boxes and why the "Redy Brek" boxes were dated to the time that I bought them and not any earlier. It seems that the Boba Fetts were fresh from the factory/workshop and could have even been made to satisfy my particular order. Of course the figures could also be exactly what I had originally assumed; Palitoy left-over stock. The weak state of the glue holding the figures might have been down to poor storage conditions and the damage part of the Palitoy production process.
I have sold hundreds of Boba Fetts over the years as "opened with figure", and as individual backing cards and figures. I never made an attempt at resealing the figures myself. I have had various stalls, shops and an ebay account over the years so my supply has dwindled to almost nothing. So much for my grand Mandalorian army!
The only positive I can glean from this debacle is that I no longer have to justify to myself and others my reasons as a 17-18 year old for opening a large number of rare carded Boba Fett figures. Jason Joiner takes pleasure in reminding me and allegedly telling people of my actions (in the spirit of fun and friendly banter I'm sure). It has turned into "Boba Fett Gate." I am relieved to discover that these Boba Fetts were almost certainly not Palitoy production items. Even at such a young age I was a very serious-minded collector and had the eye for detail and business sense to know that the Boba Fetts were not near enough to MOC to resell at the time or keep for investment purposes. I had a great deal of pleasure in diorama building with the figures, where they went to war against my 700 plus Imperial army in the back garden. That was worth a couple of hundred quid!
I believe it was a couple of years later that Jason Joiner uncovered a warehouse find of his own and I spent a lot of money on a large number of fresh-out-of-the-case Palitoy figures that were definitely not part of the dodgy Boba Fett batch. There a large number of carded and peeled open figures (some of which are from my childhood) out of the 120 – 130 in my collection which are guaranteed to be carded by Palitoy, which I could supply photographs of for comparison against "Tony's."
I hope that this rambling post has been of some use.
Craig Stevens.
Although the issue of the "Tony" cards has been running for quite some time, I have only just become aware of it. I thought that I would contribute something, because my recollections might be of help in ascertaining exactly what happened all of those years ago. I'm sorry that I have not had time to read all of the posts, so forgive me if I am covering old ground, especially as people seem to have posted some of my personal emails without telling me.
For people who don't know me, I am a long standing Star Wars fan and collector. I used to run the U.K.Star Wars Fan Club with Jason Joiner and a group of other fans. I was Club Chairman, a staff writer and my collection was a major source of material. Jason was the club promotions man (deal closer, etc), writer and his collection was an even bigger source of material. I have amassed quite a large Star Wars collection, some of which can be seen at http://www.flickr.com/photos/12871619@N03/sets/72157624878003505/
One of my major purchases occurred when Jason supplied me with 212 Palitoy carded Boba Fett figures. The number 212 was quoted in the Marvel Star Wars comic story "Star Search" as being the number of Mandalorians that fought against the Jedi in the Clone Wars (which of course has been discarded in the new canon). Jason may have bought more from his source, being convinced that I would take the lot but I stuck to 212 which was the size if the army. Jason also bought a large number of carded Snowtroopers around the same time as he had a stack of them in his loft, but I have no idea of the style or quality of the packaging they were in. Jason and I were each collecting an Imperial army at the time and I assumed that Jason had bought them for this reason.
The Boba Fett figures were supplied to me in ordinary boxes, one of which I still have. It is for "Lyon's Ready Brek", with a best before end date of February 1988. In addition to the "Ready Brek" box, I still own a number of the backing cards and bubbles, some of which are still partially attached. Jason did not issue me with sales receipt. The figures were all on identical punched Palitoy Return of the Jedi 45 back cards with a "Free Nien Nunb" offer on the back. There is a red glob next to Chewbacca. The figures inside were all the light coloured version of Boba Fett that was issued in Palitoy/Tri Logo packaging. I have no doubt that the figures were left-over stock because that variation was too difficult to find in that kind of quantity with weapons on the second-hand market.
The bubbles were of a two-stemmed style which was too small to comfortably accommodate a Boba Fett figure. All of the bubbles had not attached properly (probably because of this reason) and although the majority had still clung on the card, they were hanging by a thread. Many of the bubbles were crinkled along the edge, as if too much heat had been applied. Also many of the backing cards had identical marks across the front, seemingly from a machine of some kind (The upside down Snowtrooper on page 93 has similar marks). The figures were not even close to being MOC and if they had have been, Jason could probably have made some phone calls to collectors/fellow dealers and raised more cash selling them such, as they would have been worth a lot more than the £1-2 he charged me. I was a trader myself to a much smaller degree and if I'd got my hands on 212 MOC Boba Fetts I'd have chucked them on a stall at the next Westminster fair. Jason only bought the Fetts because he knew I was a cert for buying them and it is a marvel of his business mind that he remembered our conversation regarding the Mandalorian army. Jason may have attempted to sell some of the Boba Fetts that I did not buy because of James Simmonds' memories.
The theory put forward that left-over cards, bubbles and figures were put together by a company outside of Palitoy on behalf of a dealer would seem to fit very well. I have always wondered why in 1983 Palitoy had made such a big mistake in attempting to issue Boba Fett on the wrong packaging style and why their machinery had caused damage to the bubble and card. An outside company might have made mistakes such as this and then go on to improve the process. Or perhaps one dealer attempted to have some figures resealed and gave up before another dealer was more successful. As a model builder and a crafter myself, I cannot imagine anyone sitting down and individually sealing hundreds of bubbles and backing cards. It really needs to be a machine process (This would also explain the upside down Snowtroopers). It would not be worth anyone's while, sealing them individually for pennies. And it would have been obvious after the first attempts attaching them by hand that the process was not working. The Fetts and Snowtroopers could well be a failed experiment by dealer 1. Dealer 2 has the same Boba Fett lose figures, cards and bubbles and gets a better result elsewhere. I had also wondered why the Boba Fetts had not been stored in Palitoy produced boxes and why the "Redy Brek" boxes were dated to the time that I bought them and not any earlier. It seems that the Boba Fetts were fresh from the factory/workshop and could have even been made to satisfy my particular order. Of course the figures could also be exactly what I had originally assumed; Palitoy left-over stock. The weak state of the glue holding the figures might have been down to poor storage conditions and the damage part of the Palitoy production process.
I have sold hundreds of Boba Fetts over the years as "opened with figure", and as individual backing cards and figures. I never made an attempt at resealing the figures myself. I have had various stalls, shops and an ebay account over the years so my supply has dwindled to almost nothing. So much for my grand Mandalorian army!
The only positive I can glean from this debacle is that I no longer have to justify to myself and others my reasons as a 17-18 year old for opening a large number of rare carded Boba Fett figures. Jason Joiner takes pleasure in reminding me and allegedly telling people of my actions (in the spirit of fun and friendly banter I'm sure). It has turned into "Boba Fett Gate." I am relieved to discover that these Boba Fetts were almost certainly not Palitoy production items. Even at such a young age I was a very serious-minded collector and had the eye for detail and business sense to know that the Boba Fetts were not near enough to MOC to resell at the time or keep for investment purposes. I had a great deal of pleasure in diorama building with the figures, where they went to war against my 700 plus Imperial army in the back garden. That was worth a couple of hundred quid!
I believe it was a couple of years later that Jason Joiner uncovered a warehouse find of his own and I spent a lot of money on a large number of fresh-out-of-the-case Palitoy figures that were definitely not part of the dodgy Boba Fett batch. There a large number of carded and peeled open figures (some of which are from my childhood) out of the 120 – 130 in my collection which are guaranteed to be carded by Palitoy, which I could supply photographs of for comparison against "Tony's."
I hope that this rambling post has been of some use.
Craig Stevens.
mr_palitoy
Sith Lord
I've found an even bigger tell than the red dot printing flaw for palitoy 65 back c3po removable limbs.
This is a genuine MOC without the red dot from Vectis:-
The black carry sack comes in a clear plastic bag. All trilogos and later Kenner cards also have this clear plastic bag.
Have added that to my guide:-
http://www.freewebs.com/mrpalitoy/rotj65dcardback.htm
cheers Jason
This is a genuine MOC without the red dot from Vectis:-
The black carry sack comes in a clear plastic bag. All trilogos and later Kenner cards also have this clear plastic bag.
Have added that to my guide:-
http://www.freewebs.com/mrpalitoy/rotj65dcardback.htm
cheers Jason
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