Resealed figure discovery debate - G.Kurtz Palitoy VC Jawa.

[poncho]

scandal gone global on usa ebay.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/FRAUD-IN-THE-HOBBY-PLEASE-READ-Palitoy-Star-Wars-ROTJ-MOC-45-BACK-GENERAL-MILLS-/370968446229?pt=US_Action_Figures&hash=item565f714515

 

[Captainsolo1978]

Well someone should tell Brian's Toys- they have a light blue Jedi Fett for sale at a hefty sum!!!!

 

[_Darren_]

Here's my response,

Dear AFA,

Bollocks.

Yours sincerely
Richard

+1,Rich!!!

Darren

 

[Lafos]

For near on 15 years we heard the story from some big names in the collectors game that Toni came into possession of a ton of carded star wars figures, never did we hear he came into possession of lose cardbacks.

for 1 week we hear Toni came into possession of unused cardbacks and figures and all of a sudden most people now believe this instead...........

And the 2nd ebay account?

A question, not a challenge

Even with all the evidence against Toni, I only believe he is guilty due to his silence as no way would anyone with this much to lose as Toni would stay quiet like this.

If I'm TT's (or AFA's) lawyer, they would response they way they did.

 

[robsolo32]

100% true. They won't say anything that may implicate them or put them in a position where they may be found guilty or held responsible.

The responsibility is on the collectors to find the proof first.

 

[Richard_H]

I disagree. They could save face by simply stating the matter is in the hands of their lawyer. Why would they remain silent and watch their rep go further down the pan?

 

[Caswellbot]

AFA have never been that good at dealing with issues from what I have seen of them. I have a friend who sent in a number of proof cards this year including a Fett revenge proof and AFA lost them!!!! It took them months to put it right and from my conversations with him it was a bit of a **** show in my opinion. I think we need to understand that these guys are a business first and foremost. You can forget the loyalty to collectors bit as this doesnt ring true with them. Theyre out to make money. Take for example their stance on grade tiering and how high end items are all of a sudden more expensive to grade than other items even though it involves virtually the same workload.

With regards to UKG I have spoken to Steve and he is not willing to comment for proffessional reasons.

The grading companies will sit back and watch it play out. It is and will continue to be up to us the collectors to continue to look into this matter as strange as that may seem.

I think the recent posts by Krafterdermacht (Wolfgang) regarding the emergence of unusual and previously unavailable bubble types is another very good indication of what went on here.

I do take on board John Darthberizing's comments about circumstancial evidence but for me now there is more than enough to make up my mind. I think its also ironic that a number of members on here have done more to defend Toni than Toni has for himself! It speaks volumes. This notion that he is sitting back and watching it unfold and waiting for it to die down or for people to make fools of themselves is rubbish in my opinion. He is quiet for a reason. On the few occasions he has commented he has done himself no favours and his story has not addded up.

I have no doubt that Toni has/ had legitimate carded figure in the lot that he bought. I have seen some. Like I said earlier, I have seen some definite legit Kenner cards, meccano cloth cape jawas and some genuine Palitoys. I do not know anyone who has sold any quantity of unused cardbacks other than Toni which at least goes to prove that he has had some. Given his creativity/ vagueness with the truth over his relationship with Arthur I am definitely not willing to take him on his word on where he got them from.

I would also like to know how there can be so many figure and bubble variations for some of these. Just look at the fetts of which one collector has more than 6 variations! Im sorry but for such a limited run that just doesnt work for me. If someone can find me another legitimate example of this many variations of the same figure I may be willing to concede on this point.

Id love to do a straw poll to see how many of the members on here have changed their Ebay ID 30 times. Hell Id like to know how many have changed it 10 times! Its a joke.

Everyone must come to their own conclusions of course. Would I buy any of the cards in question now? No I wouldnt.

 

[lee gray]

I disagree. They could save face by simply stating the matter is in the hands of their lawyer. Why would they remain silent and watch their rep go further down the pan?

Yep no matter what now the damage is done and thats mainly because of his silence, which is ashame.

Just out of interest has any body here or knows anybody who purchased a ROTJ carded light blue fett from retail or have they only shown up on Toni cards as checking that list out it states there was only two loose fetts on it so he would have had to purchase a stock load of the light blue ones from somewhere and cant see him winning so many on ebay as that many dont show up plus has been selling these before ebay.

 

[kraftdermacht]

Hey everyone,

Honestly I've been quiet on this (sans a few small posts on TIG) because I think something doesn't add up in my mind. I think this revelation, the fake ironed stormies, and list are just overwhelming evidence against Toni so, something is wrong with it. JJ seems to keep trying to move past this, like there is nothing more to see. I don't think it's the case. However, Toni himself is the main reason I have doubts. Had he come forward earlier I think this would have stopped about 80 pages ago.

My issue is that there seem to be many running theories about identifying. Crescent shaped openings mid bubble, blobs of ink, the little dimples, the "03" stamp, press marks on the back, and they seem to be debunked. Is there any list of what's been tried as a possible identifier?

BTW - if there was 25,000 "items" is it not possible there were thousands of MOCs that were from the missing pages? I think Jason said 11,000 or so were the added total. So maybe 14,000 MOCs were there?

I'm not trying to make things difficult but I do want to point out a few things. If theyve been covered I apologize

1)My Glasslite MOCs have no pressure on the backs. If I showed you the back only, you'd think it was a proof.

2)I did the blacklight thing. My TT 2-1B didn't shine like Bossk did. But my Meccano 65bk Ree Yees was pretty close! I used a Kenner MOC Dengar (in honor of Josh) and big difference. I don't know if blacklights will be the answer


I think someone mentioned who has what, I have

GM 45bk 2-1B on single stem - English Text - little circles (or holes) on bubble top
GM 45bk Bossk on single stem - No Text - little circles (or holes) on bubble top
GM 45bk C3PO on single stem - No Text - no little circles

None have the crescent lift as described.

My 2-1B does have that rough look someone else showed , almost like water damage that lifts the cardboard. Barely visible but you can tell.

I think all the cards are genuine. Also the bluish ones. They are just from a different print shop/batch and from the 80s I would say.

Blacklight can help to find paint repair on re-carded figures.

Right now I belive the bubbles with the reported marks are repro.

Wolfgang

 

[mr_palitoy]

Ok, here is a new take on the list data, this time, it's just total numbers of unused cards.
On the list, german, clipper and Palitoy ESB are not identified well.
I have used the info from Tonis web site for sale list and rarity of minty mint MOCs to try and tie down the
list a bit better.

Please let me know of any amendments.

Clipper ESB

145 Rebel Commander
138 Bespin Security Guard White
69 Hammerhead
56 Walrusman
11 Dengar

General Mills ESB

563 Han Hoth
526 Stormtrooper
357 C3PO Removable Limbs
320 AT-AT Driver
318 Bespin Security Guard Black
276 IG88
268 21B
194 Han Solo
171 R2D2 Sensorscope
166 Leia Bespin
162 Han Bespin
138 Ben Kenobi
118 Power Droid
85 Yoda
70 AT-AT Commander
50 Leia Hoth
36 Rebel Soldier
26 FX-7
25 Princess Leia
11 R5D4

General Mills ROTJ

30 Cloud Car Pilot
6 Imperial Tie Fighter Pilot


Palitoy ESB

1000 Bossk
264 Imperial Tie Fighter Pilot
132 Chewbacca

Palitoy ROTJ

1234 C3PO Removable Limbs
1126 Imperial Hoth Trooper
885 Luke Skywalker
482 Boba Fett
467 Lobot
417 Death Star Droid
301 21B
143 Chewbacca
132 Luke Bespin
105 Luke Hoth
86 Lando Skiff Guard
81 Logray
60 Squid Head
47 Han Solo
39 AT-AT Driver
31 Gamorrean Guard
30 Leia Boussh
27 AT-AT Commander
12 Yoda
8 Cloud Car Pilot

cheers Jason

 

[Grant_C]

It worries me that even though there has been a vast investigation on behalf of collectors on trying to determine which are these MOCs are suspect, and some success in narrowing the field, it is my concern that if this allegation is true, its 20+ year impact on the market will have had such an influence on MOC figures that we will never be 100% sure. Even with 'the list'.


I'd like to hear what people think would be the best way to move forward. I think all options are valid and should be explored.

Edit: Good stuff Jason- that list is depressing.

 

[Grant_C]

I just want to also acknowledge that JJ is leaving all this behind after Christmas.

He told us that he has to start prepping for his 2014 Comic Cons and wont be able to assist.

To what degree he will be around, who knows.

 

[mr_palitoy]

Toni update. No more emails from Toni, the last few days, but I am having a FB conversation with a
member from my vintage star wars facebook group.

He's a new collector who live locally in Brighton and has purchased several of the suspect cards from
Toni's stall over the last few months.

He has been back to the stall to try and get his money back and has spoken to Toni. He says Toni
appeared relaxed and said it was all rumours.

Toni has offered to swap the suspect cards for Kenner cards and Meccano Jawa. Though he
has refused to swap an AFA90 graded General Mils Han Hoth.

Have suggested that he presses for a full refund, though it does look like Toni is offering to swap
some of the suspect cards for genuine MOC stock in his inventory.

cheers Jason

 

[PIGCITY]

[quoafter aulster79"]I just want to also acknowledglactaJJ is leaving all this behind after Christmas.

He told us that he has to start prepping for his 2014 Comic Cons and wont be able to assist.

To what degree he will be around, who knows.[/quote]

So after coming on here blowing the whistle saying action must be taken, he's now backing away from the shitstorm he created

 

[_Darren_]

I alluded Toni would be relaxed.

Classic sociopathic tendancies. He doesn't have any conscience regarding the damage he has caused.

Plausible deniability......prove it!!!

Nobody's getting squat!!

Ah well.....to those that have worked so hard(and continue to work trying to unravel this web)kudos. But ultimately....something has me resigned to the fact he's gonna get away with this.....

Overwhelmed????.....give me a break!!

Darren

 

[M_Rendahl]

Here's another i found in my stack of cardbacks... a 65 back Snowtrooper with clear sealing attempt iron marks.
Don't remember where i bought it...sorry :?

JC, is it possible to get a clearer shot of the whole header? Do you remember if you bought this as an unused cardback?

 

[Lee Bullock]

Bare in mind he has business in high end vintage robots. I am sure that community would be fascinated to see this thread...

 

[Richard_H]

Jason has made it clear that he wouldn't be on here for long and may pop in now and again. He is still available to contact for questions.
I'm not sure he has 'created' this either. He's brought forward some knowledge which has now been added to. As to his ultimate intentions? We may never know but at least a puzzle has been solved and before many others have been burnt.

 

[itfciain]

I also don't understand the hate for JJ - he may have been the catalyst but everyone else has put in the investigation work that means that most people have concluded that Toni has been resealing modern sealed items

 

[M_Rendahl]

Just posted this on RS and thought I'd post the same here:

So much to cacth up on... The list Jason posted was the last nail in the coffin imo, no matter of JJ's past or intentions in this matter, kudos to him for digging it up and bringing the biggest scam of all times to our attention. Thank you Jason!

If you have a lot of TT figures I understand you want to find arguments to make the TT figs more "legit", but no matter if all parts are original, its not near a genuine carded figure. If I cut out a carded ESB Cloud car Pilot and mounted it on a Cloud Car Pilot Revenge proof card using old tape I'm sure most of you would think I destroyed a Revenge proof card and its value, and would not call it semi-legit mock-up in any way. No matter if TT used all vintage stuff, it can never be near a genuine carded figure in my book, not collecting- and def not value-wise.

I think it is a shame so many very neat unused cardbacks has been destroyed by TT, since I don't have any TT figures the fact that he destroyed vintage bubbles and cardacks is almost the worst part. If done smart, I there could have been a good chunck of money only by selling these over the years. Then destorying carded beaters and baggies to get mint figs are another, small but still, sad part of this mess.

Being affected by both the BillyBoy and Scott McWilliams scams, I know how you that are affected feel


UNUSED CARDBACKS VS. PROOF CARDS
I've seen the word proof card have been used all over the boards in these threads. I think it is very important not to confuse the unused cardbacks TT has been using with proof cards and Cromalins, thats completely different stuff and has nothing to do with this. Sure, they almost look like proof cards, but the way they were produced, their purpose and usage are completely different.


PINK DOTS, QC ERRORS AND SMUDGE
Just to clearify, I've seen many are looking for small pink dots etc on their cards, these kind of small "mistakes/errors" are ONLY significant if you:
- find them on an unused cardback AND a TT moc
- And that small error isn't on any card back/moc found in the wild.
If an unused card back and TT mod has these minor errors, they are most likely from the exact same printing batch and pile of cards, and the likeliness that some has went into production and other has went into storage are slim to none.

Sure, smaller errors (especially more than one, e.g. a pink dot AND registration error) could mean that the reason for this stuff to have been tucked away, MIGHT have been they failed the QC.

Mattias