Resealed figure discovery debate - G.Kurtz Palitoy VC Jawa.

[_Lee_]

Jason,

Im not saying we should bury our heads in the sand but i dont think we should be banding around information that isnt proven true....

Hi Palitoy78,

I can understand that, for some people, this big amount of information isn't easy to handle and a bit confusing....but, thanks to Jason "Mr.Palitoy" work and another couple of guys here we can clearly discard a good variety of faked/Forged TT cards.

Summarized, all this work has lead to prove that:

- All unmarked/un-numbered "Single Stem" bubbles are REPRO BUBBLES.

- Toni got a stock of "03" Single Stem bubbles, but he used them to improve his sealing method. Bad seal(matted surface) with smashed "03" marking (no relief)

- All square bubbles (no stem) with rigid feeling are REPRO BUBBLES.

All we can do is just to thank all these guys who spend their time and share their info for all of us.

So please, don't give up....!!!

JC :roll:

I think this assessment is almost entirely wrong.

On JJ's list there are 5? boxes of bubbles, about half of which are in good nick and half which aren't.
So it's all the stuff that was left in the factory in coalville when they cleared it.
All Tonis bubbles are falling off now so it shows the glue/varnish coat/whatever on the bubbles doesnt age well and has lost sticking power.
All the bubbles Toni uses are genuine bubbles.
He has a lot of double stemmed bubbles.
He has a few 03 bubbles.
He has a lot of rectangular wide with square corner bubbles.
He has single stem bubbles he uses on palitoy 45b chewbacca and bossk without numbers.

Have looked at what bubbles are used on genuine palitoy cards, this is what I have found out and put on the guide.

Pre 45a, all of the bubbles are unnumbered and are mostly single stem.
A few 45a and most 45bs for certain figures are numbered single stem bubbles.
Double stem start with 45b and continue through 45c and on to 65d.
Rectangular square cornered bubbles of various sizes appear on 65d.
Trilogo bubbles start with 65a/b/c/d and continue on to trilogo.

They had some unnumbered single stem bubbles left over from when they made the move to double stem bubbles on 45b onwards.
They used almost all of the numbered single stem bubbles during production of 45a/45b cards. Some 03 bubbles left over.
They has a bunch of rectangular square cornered bubbles left from when they stopped producing 65d's.
They had a bunch of leftover double stem bubbles left over from the 65a/b/c/d run.
They probably had leftover trilogo bubbles but nobody wants to hear that.

And that would explain the breakdown of bubbles that we see Toni has used.

cheers Jason

Excellent post Jason

I honestly dont think TT would be stupid enough to use repro bubbles,as it wasnt part of his original plan.He would have thrown away the right to them being all original (cards and bubbles) pieces,therefore leaving it open for him to be proven as a fraud.It may sound OTT when we saw his prowress with an iron,but TT would known better then to use repro bubbles.Thats just my opinion though.

 

[Lee77]

I've seen the cardbacks with little damage and I think these are either from

1) Experiments at sealing the bubbles to the cards

2) U graded card backs. On Shawn K's page there's a couple of pictures of u graded left over card backs. These all have little to no damage. Kenner and Palitoy. The people that u grade say that they get beater cards but everyone knows that that's not always the case.

Regarding the age of mine, I sold them all in October. I can check the dates from the grading numbers later on though.
I've still got 4 left. One is a tt c3p0 which I'm sure is wrong. One is a tt R2 with yellow tint to the bubble. I'm pretty sure that this is genuine even though its from him. It graded 80 overall so its not mint. I also have a tt stormi (not hst) with a twin stem, no iron mark in the middle. Again, its not mint so could be real. Lastly there's a Leia Hoth, tri bubble but shop bought.
Tbh I was considering opening the c3p0 to see what sort of damage it does to the cardback. If it tears ok and seems genuine (which I doubt) I can always get a new one from TT!

 

[mr_palitoy]

People also need to e aware that 45c cards were sent to Europe - probably Spain - where they remained in stock up to the use of Tri bubbles and were carded with PBP and possibly Tri-logo figures

A 45c or 65 back with a tri bubble is not necessary fake, just European

Yes, I think mention that on the guide.

Also card with HN, HG, HT, TJ on the back see from Far East palitoy factory. Some 45c's, all 65a's and some 65cs are all from here.

Cheers Jason

 

[Grant_C]

Tbh I was considering opening the c3p0 to see what sort of damage it does to the cardback. If it tears ok and seems genuine (which I doubt) I can always get a new one from TT!

Hey Lee,

Don't open it yet. If you would be willing to sacrifice it, I'd wait till a professional could do forensics tests on it.

 

[panastur]

People also need to e aware that 45c cards were sent to Europe - probably Spain - where they remained in stock up to the use of Tri bubbles and were carded with PBP and possibly Tri-logo figures

A 45c or 65 back with a tri bubble is not necessary fake, just European

Yes, I think mention that on the guide.

Also card with HN, HG, HT, TJ on the back see from Far East palitoy factory. Some 45c's, all 65a's and some 65cs are all from here.

Cheers Jason

Sorry but this is totally ridiculous... :lol: :lol: :lol:

Spain(PBP), or France(Meccano) never carded action-figures on cards that wasn't from their own brand.

These Palitoy 45 "C" cards were never available in Spain or France. Only CLIPPER got already carded action-figures stock directly from Palitoy for its own market.

Respect the REPRO bubbles, i'll give up for the moment but keep it in mind....Time will tell i was not wrong.
I can affirm it without doubt because i have both versions of that square bubble; Toni's repro/rigid bubble and the genuine filmsy one...
Also, can someone show me a genuine un-numbered ESB 45 bk "B" carded figure....????......

JC

 

[finestcomics]

Hi Palitoy78,

I can understand that, for some people, this big amount of information isn't easy to handle and a bit confusing....but, thanks to Jason "Mr.Palitoy" work and another couple of guys here we can clearly discard a good variety of faked/Forged TT cards.

Summarized, all this work has lead to prove that:

- All unmarked/un-numbered "Single Stem" bubbles are REPRO BUBBLES.

- Toni got a stock of "03" Single Stem bubbles, but he used them to improve his sealing method. Bad seal(matted surface) with smashed "03" marking (no relief)

- All square bubbles (no stem) with rigid feeling are REPRO BUBBLES.

All we can do is just to thank all these guys who spend their time and share their info for all of us.

So please, don't give up....!!!

JC :roll:

I think this assessment is almost entirely wrong.

On JJ's list there are 5? boxes of bubbles, about half of which are in good nick and half which aren't.
So it's all the stuff that was left in the factory in coalville when they cleared it.
All Tonis bubbles are falling off now so it shows the glue/varnish coat/whatever on the bubbles doesnt age well and has lost sticking power.
All the bubbles Toni uses are genuine bubbles.
He has a lot of double stemmed bubbles.
He has a few 03 bubbles.
He has a lot of rectangular wide with square corner bubbles.
He has single stem bubbles he uses on palitoy 45b chewbacca and bossk without numbers.

Have looked at what bubbles are used on genuine palitoy cards, this is what I have found out and put on the guide.

Pre 45a, all of the bubbles are unnumbered and are mostly single stem.
A few 45a and most 45bs for certain figures are numbered single stem bubbles.
Double stem start with 45b and continue through 45c and on to 65d.
Rectangular square cornered bubbles of various sizes appear on 65d.
Trilogo bubbles start with 65a/b/c/d and continue on to trilogo.

They had some unnumbered single stem bubbles left over from when they made the move to double stem bubbles on 45b onwards.
They used almost all of the numbered single stem bubbles during production of 45a/45b cards. Some 03 bubbles left over.
They has a bunch of rectangular square cornered bubbles left from when they stopped producing 65d's.
They had a bunch of leftover double stem bubbles left over from the 65a/b/c/d run.
They probably had leftover trilogo bubbles but nobody wants to hear that.

And that would explain the breakdown of bubbles that we see Toni has used.

cheers Jason

Excellent post Jason

I honestly dont think TT would be stupid enough to use repro bubbles,as it wasnt part of his original plan.He would have thrown away the right to them being all original (cards and bubbles) pieces,therefore leaving it open for him to be proven as a fraud.It may sound OTT when we saw his prowress with an iron,but TT would known better then to use repro bubbles.Thats just my opinion though.

The thing to keep in mind is the length of time the blisters have been sitting since they were purchased from AB. Some perspective. In the early to mid 90's, I was buying up quite a bit of sport card top-loaders to protect the more valuable stuff. They started to yellow 6-7 years later. Now they are all completely yellow. Poly-bags for comics have a lifespan of 7 years before they started degrading. If they're sitting in a box, they're not only yellow, but they begin to stick to one another because the chemical breakdown leaches into everything, including the books and backers.

Generally speaking, the softer the plastic, the more chemicals, and higher the rate of degradation (which would conversely mean a shorter lifespan where you would begin to see yellowing). The "softness" of these blisters is somewhere between the grade of plastic used on top loaders, and comic poly-bags. There is little to no chance they would have survived for 30 years, opened (meaning they were not sealed onto a cardback) and not yellowed.

The only reason poly-grade plastic on protective cases, top loaders, and bags have more recently been able to "offset" yellowing is the use of a blue pigment. Based on my experiences with plastic products, I would say that the timeline of the AB purchase would have easily started revealing yellowing sometime in the late 90's to early 2000's. Because of the very real possibility the blister stock would have degraded and showed yellowing by that time, it wouldn't be out of the realm of possibility for repro blister stock to have been purposed sometime in the early to mid 2000's. After all it would be hard to maintain the image of "case fresh" MOC dealer selling MOC's with yellowed blisters.

I think the blue pigment started being more widely used in the mid-2000's so it would be interesting to see if anyone's MOC's have a slight "bluish" appearance when shone in light. The issue is that the way the blisters are applied to a coloured backing differing on each figure, or how the AFA/UKG cases obstruct a more thorough examination from occurring. I know he isn't popular with the SW collecting community, but I have thought about contacting Nathan Edwards asking him if he's got any blister samples that resemble the wider, clear ones used on MOC's from Toni in the last 4 years (mine was purchased in 2011) in hopes that there might be some distinguishing features that would prove without a shred of doubt they are repro.

 

[mr_palitoy]

The bubbles Toni has used are identical to the ones used in the factory so are unlikely to be repros. Some palitoy bubbles go yellow, others don't. Clearly, he
hasn't used the ones that have turned yellow.

cheers Jason

 

[jedisearcher]

Placing any cast-iron reliance on what happened on a production line 30 years ago is nuts.

Do people really think a production line for Bossk would be shut down because there were no 03 single stems that day? They'd have just used something else he fit into. Yes, most would be 03's, but there's a very real chance he shipped on something else. We know the QC was poor.

Just because the 10-20 or so images on Google look mostly the same, a Bossk shipping with another bubble doesn't mean anything. Hundreds of thousands were assembled remember.

You can't 100% rely on anything re: bubbles or any of the packaging combinations.

 

[jedisearcher]

The bubbles Toni has used are identical to the ones used in the factory so are unlikely to be repros. Some palitoy bubbles go yellow, others don't. Clearly, he
hasn't used the ones that have turned yellow.

cheers Jason

At a time when we should doubt everything we see you've got to admit it's highly suspect that bubbles on his MOC's never go yellow.

Of course his design to a plastics company would look the same as a real one, he'd have sent them a real one.

The probability of all his bubbles somehow never going yellow falls into the 'very improbable' category. You have to see that.

 

[finestcomics]

The bubbles Toni has used are identical to the ones used in the factory so are unlikely to be repros. Some palitoy bubbles go yellow, others don't. Clearly, he
hasn't used the ones that have turned yellow.

cheers Jason

At a time when we should doubt everything we see you've got to admit it's highly suspect that bubbles on his MOC's never go yellow.

Of course his design to a plastics company would look the same as a real one, he'd have sent them a real one.

The probability of all his bubbles somehow never going yellow falls into the 'very improbable' category. You have to see that.

I agree. There is one other important factor. We are basing our understanding of "non-yellowing" Palitoy samples on MOC's. I can assure you that unused blister stock sitting around would age and degrade differently from blisters applied to MOC's. How much is hard to say - we haven't needed to look into this before this event. My hunch though is that "exposure" to environment (air especially) will degrade plastic quicker than "sealed" blisters. 30 years is a about 20-25 years past the "best before" date on "unused" blisters.

 

[mr_palitoy]

I think one thing we can all agree on is that a Toni bubble isnt the same as a shop sold bubble for the majority of the figures/cards that he sold.

cheers Jason

 

[Hothrebel]

If you are talking about yellowing bubbles,in my experience you don't see many 12 backs either Kenner or Palitoy that have yellowed and these will be older than the ones you are talking about.

 

[Bootyhunter]

OK, I think what I said was correct:

JJ gets 700 Fetts and 500 Hoth Troopers from Arthur. The Fetts go to Craig Stevens.

Didn't Toni from toy Toni get the German figures? He had a hell of a lot in the early 90s

As I mentioned previously Craig Stevens (ebay seller toysbycraig) has been selling off Tri Fetts (improperly sealed) and 45 back space scene cards for a while.

 

[spoons]

I'm getting very confused by all this - the general concensus is that Toni's have a crap seal - how do the well sealed waffle 03 bubbles fit in?

I these are fake too, it seems more likely that there are two difference sources...

 

[mr_palitoy]

Jason

Regarding tri logo bubbles, not sure if Luke Bespin is on the list but there's loads of these, mint , on 45b's that graded highly. If the rest of his mocs are not factory sealed, I would say that the Luke bespin with tri bubbles aren't original either.
I agree with you that the statement about repro bubbles is wrong too. There's absolutely no proof.

On Luke Bespin, there are no afa graded palitoy 45b's, or mocs that have come to light as far as I'm aware. I finally got hold of a cardback a year or two back after 6 years of looking.

Do you mean another card/figure variation?

cheers Jason

 

[Lee77]

Sorry Jason

My heads gone after catching up on this thread!

I meant 45 c rotj cards. They're mainly tri bubbles/high grades.

 

[spoons]

I've spent a few hours with an anglepoise lamp and a camera trying to see a pattern in my suspected cards, and I really am none the wiser.

The GM Han Hoth, has a square sticker mark on the back (like a genuine German card), a lined waffle seal but an 03 bubble - my Kenner Han Hoths have 02 bubbles.

There are apparently 100s of Han Hoth GM cardbacks

The 03 is very pronounced and apparently this is a good sign...

Is this a genuine card with an 03 bubble or a Toni with a very good seal? - I have no idea

Next up the 45B Bossk,

Once again a cardback that exists in the 100s, and an 03 bubble when ?others have an 011. The 0 is clear but the 3 very vague - an apparent sign of a Toni

The card has the exact same lined waffle seal as the Han Hoth and other genuine GM seals, but there is a TIE pilot in this thread with a similar seal and that is assumed to be a Toni.

On this there is a small square sticker rip - a Toni price tag or a shop price tag?

It also has score marks at the top and bottom - anyone seen these on a Toni?

My last supposed Toni is the GM Stormtrooper, a mint card, a clear thin line of seal, a bubble with dimples (now assumed to be genuine) but shipped across the Atlantic at least twice and no sign of the bubble falling off. A near definite Toni but you'd be a brave man to open it on the evidence...

Lastly the most obvious Toni produced item - but it's a Kenner 48 back, bought from the States and is a genuine factory sealed card complete with waffle seal

1. An unpunched mint card
2. Although an 02 bubble, the 0 is clear but the 2 is squashed like there is too much heat
3. Air pockets in the seal

Conclusions - Toni is a ****ing genius and I give up

 

[jay4]

Do people really think a production line for Bossk would be shut down because there were no 03 single stems that day? They'd have just used something else he fit into. Yes, most would be 03's, but there's a very real chance he shipped on something else. We know the QC was poor.

Just because the 10-20 or so images on Google look mostly the same, a Bossk shipping with another bubble doesn't mean anything. Hundreds of thousands were assembled remember.

You can't 100% rely on anything re: bubbles or any of the packaging combinations.

:wink: yip ive said this all along.
& ive no doubt at all that so as not to cease production costing VERY big bucks even for as little as an 1/2 hour of production halt in any factory never mind angry stockists all over screaming for orders they have paid for and expect on time that the line managers or the likes would just grab the next closest bubbles available they had that looked like it fitted the fig best and used them obviously over all those years of production that could mean just about any bubble found in mass around the warehouses on the days when the allocated actual bubble ran out for certain figures and the problem arose which im sure there were very many explains why many figs can be found with supposedly wrong bubbles that arent actually wrong,
ive seen a few times stated here aswel about figures heads bulging the bubbles out at top or figures arms bulging the bubbles out at the sides and this points to fake aswel NO this just means on those days that make shift bubbles were used to get these boxed up shipped out and onto shelfs were slitely smaller ones

 

[jay4]

I've spent a few hours with an anglepoise lamp and a camera trying to see a pattern in my suspected cards, and I really am none the wiser.



to me in my eyes your gm han hoth & bossk are genuine going by all the comparisons ive made to other suspected and genuine moc inc my own

just too add ive a fair few genuine shop sold card with flattened or near unoticbale bubble numbers . so i dont put to much thought into this whole tonis are all crushed so those are fakes thing

 

[spoons]

I've spent a few hours with an anglepoise lamp and a camera trying to see a pattern in my suspected cards, and I really am none the wiser.



to me in my eyes your gm han hoth & bossk are genuine going by all the comparisons ive made to other suspected and genuine moc inc my own

just too add ive a fair few genuine shop sold card with flattened or near unoticbale bubble numbers . so i dont put to much thought into this whole tonis are all crushed so those are fakes thing

cheers Jay - I thought that too until the bubble number thread and I totally agree with your points above about using whatever was needed. On the flip side the Han and Bossk are the most plentiful cardbacks out there - hopefully they are also the most plentiful MOCs too. I'm not sure we'll ever know for sure.