Resealed figure discovery debate - G.Kurtz Palitoy VC Jawa.

[Grant_C]

4-lom looks like a ugrade possibly :?

Thanks for sharing- nice cardbacks :wink:

 

[lee gray]

Once a figure and bubble are removed from a Toni card, does that card then become 100 percent acceptable to sell on as a genuine cardback or because of the leftover marks from the toni applied bubble, is the card although a genuine item still thought of as dodgy and needs to mention its Toni stock so might be worthless ?

 

[mr_palitoy]

Once a figure and bubble are removed from a Toni card, does that card then become 100 percent acceptable to sell on as a genuine cardback or because of the leftover marks from the toni applied bubble, is the card although a genuine item still thought of as dodgy and needs to mention its Toni stock so might be worthless ?

A cardbacks a cardback in my books, Tonis ones have a hell of a lot less bubble rip on them, and occasional bonus iron marks. Swings and roundabouts.
The original stock were original unused cardbacks so no need to mention Tonis name in my opinion. They are quite easy to spot.

cheers Jason

 

[jay4]

@ Jason Joiner, how come you ended up with the fetts and hoth troopers from Arthur?
Sorry if I missed it but its odd that with everything on the 'list' you choose 500 of each of these.
You bought these direct from Arthur? who you said you knew well and looked up to.

You must of purchased these before Toni bought up everything else Arthur had on the list, otherwise Toni would of bought the troopers and fetts too.
Toni could not of sealed the troopers, as that would mean you purchased them off him, which is something you said you have never done.
So the troopers were either sealed by Arthur or youself? No way are those upside down troopers palitoy rejects.[/quote



hi delboy did you ever get a direct answer to this question from jj mate ? without me trawling loads more pages ,i did look at the following 3 or 4 but didnt see anything ,this is pretty much the only question ive asked jason joiner but got no answer either ?
im just eager to find out whos handy work my trooper was. he is the least value of my effected moc but LOW value aside he was my first figure as a child and one of my most loved moc on this supposed error card until all this crap came to light .so personally i feel most betrayed and disappointed on

 

[jay4]

sorry pc playing up repost

 

[jay4]

sorry repost

 

[**Delboy75**]

No jay, no reply from Jason.

 

[panastur]

Here are my Palitoy ESB 45 back "B" Single Stem cardbacks...

Darth Vader, no visible number but only to prove it existed with Single Stem bubble.

Han Solo Original, "04" number.

C-3PO RL, "015" number.

R2-D2 Sensorscope, "02" or "012"number, difficult to say. Look the up side down bubble position..!!!

TIE Fighter Pilot, "13" number.

Death Star Droid, "02" number.

Luke Hoth, "03" number.. Check the dimple in the "0".

4-LOM, no visible number but only to prove it existed with Single Stem bubble.

Bespin Security Guard Black, "01" number.

Cloud Car Pilot, "02" number.

AT-AT Commander, "01" number.

AT-AT Commander, "03" number.

JC

 

[_Lee_]

After reading through the last few pages of this thread,it has occured that more confusion is being caused by apparent card qtys,what was sealed by Toni etc.Im not being off here,but i could sell all my collection saying that i had them since childhood,having bought them over the past few years.To think that Vectis only sells 'childhood collections' is horseshit in my opinion,and it is dangerous to think that.We all know deep down that the majority of top quality MOC Palitoy ESB/ROTJ out there originated from Toni,but there isnt any concrete evidence to prove that and that is why we are in this mess.

Jason,i have said this before but i seriously think you are creating more confusion with your cardback matrix by listing all these suspect card/bubble variations and also what was sealed by Toni.Some people are fickle and will take that as gospel,when clearly it isnt the case.I think you are getting too far in with that numbers thrown around,and are doubling the confusion.I fully understand that you have been affected by this,and i feel for you but you need to wind it in a little.Maybe some people are doing all they can to deny this happened,and your matrix is convincing them something is up when it isnt.Perhaps they are trying to prove their thousands of pounds collections are good to go and will listen to anything to be convinced.Again,im not having a pop at you,but it seems that you are adding confusion.I do however,take my hat off to you for all the time you put in to this.It says a lot about you

I am so gutted about this.The hobby is tarnished forever,no matter what happens.

 

[mr_palitoy]

After reading through the last few pages of this thread,it has occured that more confusion is being caused by apparent card qtys,what was sealed by Toni etc.Im not being off here,but i could sell all my collection saying that i had them since childhood,having bought them over the past few years.To think that Vectis only sells 'childhood collections' is horseshit in my opinion,and it is dangerous to think that.We all know deep down that the majority of top quality MOC Palitoy ESB/ROTJ out there originated from Toni,but there isnt any concrete evidence to prove that and that is why we are in this mess.

Jason,i have said this before but i seriously think you are creating more confusion with your cardback matrix by listing all these suspect card/bubble variations and also what was sealed by Toni.Some people are fickle and will take that as gospel,when clearly it isnt the case.I think you are getting too far in with that numbers thrown around,and are doubling the confusion.I fully understand that you have been affected by this,and i feel for you but you need to wind it in a little.Maybe some people are doing all they can to deny this happened,and your matrix is convincing them something is up when it isnt.Perhaps they are trying to prove their thousands of pounds collections are good to go and will listen to anything to be convinced.Again,im not having a pop at you,but it seems that you are adding confusion.I do however,take my hat off to you for all the time you put in to this.It says a lot about you

I am so gutted about this.The hobby is tarnished forever,no matter what happens.

Are you saying we are better off just sticking our head in the sands and ignoring the problem?

I have tried listing what is known to be genuine and those pieces thought to be Tonis.

It's a guide, not gospel.

cheers Jason

 

[mr_palitoy]

Here are my Palitoy ESB 45 back "B" Single Stem cardbacks...

Darth Vader, no visible number but only to prove it existed with Single Stem bubble.

Han Solo Original, "04" number.

C-3PO RL, "015" number.

R2-D2 Sensorscope, "02" or "012"number, difficult to say. Look the up side down bubble position..!!!

TIE Fighter Pilot, "13" number.

Death Star Droid, "02" number.

Luke Hoth, "03" number.. Check the dimple in the "0".

4-LOM, no visible number but only to prove it existed with Single Stem bubble.

Bespin Security Guard Black, "01" number.

Cloud Car Pilot, "02" number.

AT-AT Commander, "01" number.

AT-AT Commander, "03" number.

JC

Great stuff, those numbers match all the numbers already posted on my guide, so it's good to have confirmation.

cheers Jason

 

[_Lee_]

Jason,

Im not saying we should bury our heads in the sand but i dont think we should be banding around information that isnt proven true.It seems as though everyone is going to deem every Palitoy suspect now which isnt the case.Also,people shouldnt be reading that all Vectis stuff is good as it came from collections from childhood,or with good provenance.This situation itself makes the word Provenance redundant it seems.We all thought Toni was provenance,but it proves that some people can fool others.The difference here is that JJ has shown Provenance in the way of his lists,but there are people who will not beleive that alone.

 

[mr_palitoy]

I never said all vectis are good, I said a lot of it was. There are Toni pieces they have fold over the years.

A lot if the recent edits for the guide are about documenting which bubble types were used with which cardbacks and figures. Have found that really interesting to do. Maybe I should just give up and delete the guide.

Jason

 

[_Lee_]

I never said all vectis are good, I said a lot of it was. There are Toni pieces they have fold over the years.

A lot if the recent edits for the guide are about documenting which bubble types were used with which cardbacks and figures. Have found that really interesting to do. Maybe I should just give up and delete the guide.

Jason

Jason,im not suggesting you give up and delete the guide.

 

[jay4]

No jay, no reply from Jason.

thanks mate , i do wander why jason joiner didnt answer that to either of us ? seems odd when he made sure every other single question put to him before and after was answered yet he just skipped by yours completely ignoring it ? and he chose to do nothing but point finger at tony about every other moc going when i asked about him having these 500 hoth troopers with ironed upside down bubbles i implied he maybe been part off ,

 

[Palifan]

No jay, no reply from Jason.

Not sure if you've contacted JJ directly on the email he posted but it might be worth a shot as I'm not sure how much time he's had to check this thread of late. Just a thought (and sorry if you have already tried his personal email).

Ian

 

[Palifan]

It's good to see the used card backs with numbers on them as it clearly shows what bubble type goes with what figure.

Does this definitely mean that any moc out there with the same card back number have to have these numbered bubble types attached to make them legit? If it does then something is more than strange if any of the ones originating from TT don't have the same numbered bubbles (which seems to be the case if only the 03 ones have shown up on this card back run). Oh and don't give up on all of this Jason,you've put to much work into all of this and I think you just need to make sure that your findings are what's known at the moment but still not completely proven due to TT's lack of response.

Ian

 

[panastur]

Jason,

Im not saying we should bury our heads in the sand but i dont think we should be banding around information that isnt proven true....

Hi Palitoy78,

I can understand that, for some people, this big amount of information isn't easy to handle and a bit confusing....but, thanks to Jason "Mr.Palitoy" work and another couple of guys here we can clearly discard a good variety of faked/Forged TT cards.

Summarized, all this work has lead to prove that:

- All unmarked/un-numbered "Single Stem" bubbles are REPRO BUBBLES.

- Toni got a stock of "03" Single Stem bubbles, but he used them to improve his sealing method. Bad seal(matted surface) with smashed "03" marking (no relief)

- All square bubbles (no stem) with rigid feeling are REPRO BUBBLES.

All we can do is just to thank all these guys who spend their time and share their info for all of us.

So please, don't give up....!!!

JC :roll:

 

[finestcomics]

Jason,

Im not saying we should bury our heads in the sand but i dont think we should be banding around information that isnt proven true....

Hi Palitoy78,

I can understand that, for some people, this big amount of information isn't easy to handle and a bit confusing....but, thanks to Jason "Mr.Palitoy" work and another couple of guys here we can clearly discard a good variety of faked/Forged TT cards.

Summarized, all this work has lead to prove that:

- All unmarked/un-numbered "Single Stem" bubbles are REPRO BUBBLES.

- Toni got a stock of "03" Single Stem bubbles, but he used them to improve his sealing method. Bad seal(matted surface) with smashed "03" marking (no relief)

- All square bubbles (no stem) with rigid feeling are REPRO BUBBLES.

All we can do is just to thank all these guys who spend their time and share their info for all of us.

So please, don't give up....!!!

JC :roll:

I'm just trying to follow the last yellow-bolded point you made. Are you saying this is a repro bubble:

If it isn't, why and how do you definite "rigid feeling?"

 

[panastur]

I'm just trying to follow the last yellow-bolded point you made. Are you saying this is a repro bubble:

If it isn't, why and how do you definite "rigid feeling?"

AFA cases are a real problem. You just can't feel the bubble...

Also, the seal must be this kind:

JC

 

[jay4]

No jay, no reply from Jason.

Not sure if you've contacted JJ directly on the email he posted but it might be worth a shot as I'm not sure how much time he's had to check this thread of late. Just a thought (and sorry if you have already tried his personal email).

Ian[/quote
hahha you kidding mate . i take it you didnt come across the pile of non answer answers i got from jason when i brought it up here just few pages ago . and like jason said openly then here he would rather not defend himself to me personaly via pm but in public . but in the same hand never did to me nor the question asked by me and dellboy.

 

[jay4]

No jay, no reply from Jason.

Not sure if you've contacted JJ directly on the email he posted but it might be worth a shot as I'm not sure how much time he's had to check this thread of late. Just a thought (and sorry if you have already tried his personal email).

Ian[/quote
hahha you kidding mate . i take it you didnt come across the pile of non answer answers i got from jason when i brought it up here just few pages ago . and like jason said openly then here he would rather not defend himself to me personaly via pm but in public . but in the same hand never did to me nor the question asked by me and dellboy.

, heres the unanswered question asked

-

@ Jason Joiner, how come you ended up with the fetts and hoth troopers from Arthur?
Sorry if I missed it but its odd that with everything on the 'list' you choose 500 of each of these.
You bought these direct from Arthur? who you said you knew well and looked up to.

You must of purchased these before Toni bought up everything else Arthur had on the list, otherwise Toni would of bought the troopers and fetts too.
Toni could not of sealed the troopers, as that would mean you purchased them off him, which is something you said you have never done.
So the troopers were either sealed by Arthur or youself? No way are those upside down troopers palitoy rejects.

 

[Palifan]

Not sure if you've contacted JJ directly on the email he posted but it might be worth a shot as I'm not sure how much time he's had to check this thread of late. Just a thought (and sorry if you have already tried his personal email).

Ian[/quote
hahha you kidding mate . i take it you didnt come across the pile of non answer answers i got from jason when i brought it up here just few pages ago . and like jason said openly then here he would rather not defend himself to me personaly via pm but in public . but in the same hand never did to me nor the question asked by me and dellboy.[/quote]
, heres the unanswered question asked

-

@ Jason Joiner, how come you ended up with the fetts and hoth troopers from Arthur?
Sorry if I missed it but its odd that with everything on the 'list' you choose 500 of each of these.
You bought these direct from Arthur? who you said you knew well and looked up to.


You must of purchased these before Toni bought up everything else Arthur had on the list, otherwise Toni would of bought the troopers and fetts too.
Toni could not of sealed the troopers, as that would mean you purchased them off him, which is something you said you have never done.
So the troopers were either sealed by Arthur or youself? No way are those upside down troopers palitoy rejects.

I thought JJ answered this by saying that the fetts and troopers came from an earlier deal, before the lot from the list came about (pretty sure that's what he said a while ago but who knows without going back over everything). I also don't think JJ has ever said that Toni sealed those Troopers/Fetts but it does seem like maybe Arthur had a go as I'm pretty certain they wouldn't have originated from the Palitoy factory. Bit of a mystery that up side down bubble unless it was produced in the same place the NZ ones came from?

Ian

 

[jay4]

Not sure if you've contacted JJ directly on the email he posted but it might be worth a shot as I'm not sure how much time he's had to check this thread of late. Just a thought (and sorry if you have already tried his personal email).

Ian[/quote
hahha you kidding mate . i take it you didnt come across the pile of non answer answers i got from jason when i brought it up here just few pages ago . and like jason said openly then here he would rather not defend himself to me personaly via pm but in public . but in the same hand never did to me nor the question asked by me and dellboy.

, heres the unanswered question asked

-

@ Jason Joiner, how come you ended up with the fetts and hoth troopers from Arthur?
Sorry if I missed it but its odd that with everything on the 'list' you choose 500 of each of these.
You bought these direct from Arthur? who you said you knew well and looked up to.


You must of purchased these before Toni bought up everything else Arthur had on the list, otherwise Toni would of bought the troopers and fetts too.
Toni could not of sealed the troopers, as that would mean you purchased them off him, which is something you said you have never done.
So the troopers were either sealed by Arthur or youself? No way are those upside down troopers palitoy rejects.

I thought JJ answered this by saying that the fetts and troopers came from an earlier deal, before the lot from the list came about (pretty sure that's what he said a while ago but who knows without going back over everything). I also don't think JJ has ever said that Toni sealed those Troopers/Fetts but it does seem like maybe Arthur had a go as I'm pretty certain they wouldn't have originated from the Palitoy factory. Bit of a mystery that up side down bubble unless it was produced in the same place the NZ ones came from?

Ian[/quote]

hi ian . god knows and i cant be bothered going post hunting either to say what was said by jj :|
and like you say ian maybe arthur did have a go at ironing cards :evil: which would inturn mean jason joiner or TT bought the ironed hoths stormies from arthur like that and sold them on ? no way a big bulk dealer like arthur would have ironed these himselfs and sold off as individuals he dealt in bulk as is obvious .,if arthur did iron these they were passed onto resellers he was trading with in england ie jj or tt ?and whom ever that was must have knew they were reseals

 

[_Lee_]

Jason,

Im not saying we should bury our heads in the sand but i dont think we should be banding around information that isnt proven true....

Hi Palitoy78,

I can understand that, for some people, this big amount of information isn't easy to handle and a bit confusing....but, thanks to Jason "Mr.Palitoy" work and another couple of guys here we can clearly discard a good variety of faked/Forged TT cards.

Summarized, all this work has lead to prove that:

- All unmarked/un-numbered "Single Stem" bubbles are REPRO BUBBLES.

- Toni got a stock of "03" Single Stem bubbles, but he used them to improve his sealing method. Bad seal(matted surface) with smashed "03" marking (no relief)

- All square bubbles (no stem) with rigid feeling are REPRO BUBBLES.

All we can do is just to thank all these guys who spend their time and share their info for all of us.

So please, don't give up....!!!

JC :roll:

This is my point.There is no concrete proof there are repro bubbles being used.We cam all summarize but we dont know what he got,and what he used.Its obvious an iron was used but bubbles are tougher to decipher IMO.

By the way,i appreciate all the work Jason puts in.Ive been on this since day one and have kept up to date,and provided one of the most important leads on why i thought TT was up to no good.

Trust me,im gutted as everyone else is.

 

[jedisearcher]

I thought JJ answered this by saying that the fetts and troopers came from an earlier deal, before the lot from the list came about (pretty sure that's what he said a while ago but who knows without going back over everything). I also don't think JJ has ever said that Toni sealed those Troopers/Fetts but it does seem like maybe Arthur had a go as I'm pretty certain they wouldn't have originated from the Palitoy factory. Bit of a mystery that up side down bubble unless it was produced in the same place the NZ ones came from?

Ian

hi ian . god knows and i cant be bothered going post hunting either to say what was said by jj :|
and like you say ian maybe arthur did have a go at ironing cards :evil: which would inturn mean jason joiner or TT bought the ironed hoths stormies from arthur like that and sold them on ? no way a big bulk dealer like arthur would have ironed these himselfs and sold off as individuals he dealt in bulk as is obvious .,if arthur did iron these they were passed onto resellers he was trading with in england ie jj or tt ?and whom ever that was must have knew they were reseals

Just my recollection, I might be wrong - I thought JJ said he got them off Arthur in bulk (500?).

On more solid ground, I think he said he knew they were dodgy but at that time he was selling them very cheaply, barely more than a loose figure, and again, at that time, people cared alot less about that kind of thing because those ROTJ's were still very common back then and stock was getting offloaded all over the place so no-one valued it like they do now (hard to believe now!!).

One thing I did think was abit odd was that JJ said they were going very cheap but someone posted about buying an ironed Fett at a toy fair and the odd thing was he bought it for £30 or so, which is cheap now, but 25 years ago it was a good bit of money and (I thought) a lot more than a loose Fett would go for. That just seemed abit out of sync to me.

It was a long time ago though, so perhaps it's just people's memories going soft!!

 

[_Lee_]

Can someone post the earliest date which one of TT,s figures could have been AFA graded.I mean a month/year if possible.Something is bugging me which i hope to research a bit.

Thanks

Lee

 

[jedisearcher]

Not sure how you'd do that. Perhaps contacting AFA directly might be the answer?

 

[Caswellbot]

Jay I think Jason Joiner did answer that questions at some point in the thread.

I also think Jason (Mr Palitoy) should be commended for his work on all of this. This is a mammoth undertaking and he has invested alot of time and energy into it. I think we all need to be realistic about our expectations of what we will find out in terms of hard facts when it comes to the sealing process and bubbles used by Toni. If there were 3 boxes of unused bubbles (which I believe is what was stated in the list) that is a HELL of alot of bubbles. Im sure that if there were that many we could expect to see a huge number variations of both bubble type and seals which will muddy the water horribly.

It is fair to assume that what ever the case, Toni would have gradually improved the sealing of these over many years. Therefore, looking for consistent trends and patterns will be an almost impossible task (although it is great that people are trying and this is key for damage limitation) The one key to all this clearly has nothing to say on the matter which is damming enough to boot.

Hopefully over time, more shop bought/ childhood examples with solid provenance will surface and will help to build a stronger case. With any luck the grading companies should also be able to offer some more insights in the future.

 

[finestcomics]

You can only do a lookup with those details by serial number. I just spent about five minutes searching through Google images and found a handful of serial numbers - the earliest I could find was 2007. I just used "Palitoy 45 Back AFA" and "Palitoy 65 Back AFA" for my search queries and saw quite a few. Otherwise you'll have to depend on some collectors to supply you some s/n who have been holding on to AFA'd pieces for at least the last ten years as they might have a chance of finding one from pre-2005, which seems to be the earliest one Jason had.

BTW: Here are the ones I checked on AFA's population report lookup tool:

11119646
13059483
11237810
11085648
17036950